Pastor doesn't want members praying or reading bible together

[Major]

You have made this kind of statement more than once but it is false. You do have "views", they are your interpretation of scripture. You interpret the same scripture(s) differently than others in here.

Please expand that comment by posting one of those interpretations that do not match the Bible's teaching so that you and I can discuss it.

Without a doubt, the "others" in here which are of the Charismatic Pentecostal faith will of course not agree with my comments of Scriptures which touch on their interpretation of those said Scriptures.

It always comes down to one thing. You believe what God said or you add to what He said in order to make it fit your own theology. It has been that way my dear friend for hundreds and hundreds of years if not thousands.

If I have made a false teaching as you just said, then it is incumbent upon YOU to post it so that I can be corrected.

 

[Major]

I know your assertion about Pentecostals and scripture is erroneous.. I know much about them.

Wrong! Assertion is the 1st cousin of "opinion".
I have posted exact Scripture as to what the Scriptures say so that it is clear that there is a choice to be made between what God says and what we want God to have said.

You said you ....... "I don't know all the Pentecostal teachings"!!...
Now you say ......................." I know much about them."

Hummmm.

You are a "helper" so I am sure you can pick a topic of Scripture that we differ on and discuss it if you would like to. Your choice, my time is free.

 

[Man-ofGod]

A group of 4-5 of us in our church catch up regularly and do mini bible studies by reading the Word and talking about it, followed by a time of prayer.

Recently I told the pastor about this great time and they said they don't want people catching up in this way outside of church. This is incase false doctrine is discussed. I'm quite confused because I thought that catching up reading the Word and praying together would be exactly what the church would encourage!

What are people's thoughts. I believe in authority and submission. I also believe that this is ridiculous to be honest. Is here scripture or any thoughts on this issue? If a pastor discourages people from meeting like this, does his "command" apply in a Biblical way? Thoughts?

Definitely
wrong. This sounds like the Dark Ages where the church service was recited in an unknown tongue (Latin) and people were not allowed to read the scripture for themselves. Usually if there is something to hide that the bible exposes, that is when Satan tries to lock up the scripture.

Do not let anyone tell you that you need to depend on their judgement to weed out false doctrine. Scripture says that every man will be taught of God. It also says "cursed is the man that maketh flesh his arm and turn his heart away from the Lord." The bible promises that God will send the Holy Spirit and He shall guide us unto ALL truth. Most of the things taught in popular churches unfortunately are error, and many folks are going to be lost because they fail to learn "what is truth" for themselves.



--MoG

 

[Euphemia]

Wrong! Assertion is the 1st cousin of "opinion".
I have posted exact Scripture as to what the Scriptures say so that it is clear that there is a choice to be made between what God says and what we want God to have said.

You said you ....... "I don't know all the Pentecostal teachings"!!...
Now you say ......................." I know much about them."

Hummmm.

To not know ALL the doctrine of the Pentecostal denomination doesn't mean I know NOTHING about them. I happen to know a lot about them, and your assertion about them is false.

With the free time you have, maybe you can bone up on them.

 

[Grant Melville]

It always comes down to one thing. You believe what God said or you add to what He said in order to make it fit your own theology. It has been that way my dear friend for hundreds and hundreds of years if not thousands.

You've hit on it, Major, the root of the problem. It's very dangerous for us to approach the word of God with pre-conceived ideas which result from being instructed in a particular school of theology. It results in a determination to make the scriptures fit the theology at all costs, which is an understandable reaction. If even one tenet of that theology is challenged and found to be false, it brings into question the whole system, and that can be a very alarming experience for the followers of the system. But this theological approach to the truth (which results in getting into all kinds of error instead) is a very cunning ploy of the enemy, because it brings Christianity down to the same level as man-made religions, by means of a man-made theology. That's a weak belief, brittle and easily shattered. It also results in bitterness and enmity between believers. A believer who's ensnared in the theology of a particular school is often as defensive and resistant to the truth as a Hindu, a Muslim, a Sikh, or a Buddhist would be. The devil knows very well that hades gates won't prevail against the Church, but he'll do all he can while he's able, to limit the response to God from His people through the most subtle means imaginable.

 

[Major]

You've hit on it, Major, the root of the problem. It's very dangerous for us to approach the word of God with pre-conceived ideas which result from being instructed in a particular school of theology. It results in a determination to make the scriptures fit the theology at all costs, which is an understandable reaction. If even one tenet of that theology is challenged and found to be false, it brings into question the whole system, and that can be a very alarming experience for the followers of the system. But this theological approach to the truth (which results in getting into all kinds of error instead) is a very cunning ploy of the enemy, because it brings Christianity down to the same level as man-made religions, by means of a man-made theology. That's a weak belief, brittle and easily shattered. It also results in bitterness and enmity between believers. A believer who's ensnared in the theology of a particular school is often as defensive and resistant to the truth as a Hindu, a Muslim, a Sikh, or a Buddhist would be. The devil knows very well that hades gates won't prevail against the Church, but he'll do all he can while he's able, to limit the response to God from His people through the most subtle means imaginable.

Agreed.

You said..........."It also results in bitterness and enmity between believers."

That is my concern Grant. You and I have seen it right here in front of us. Someone will differ from someone else's religious tenants of faith and all of a sudden they are the enemy with others picking and chooses whose sides to be on and them condemning those they disagree with.

Take a notice when there is a debate or different of understanding how the division identifies itself by the "likes" that are given to the individuals involved. It is not about who is correct in their understanding according to the Scriptures but who it is that is posting their opinion.
That is truth by popularity and not by the Word of God.

I have seen this now on several Christian web sites recently and it is really disturbing. I am seeing that man is placing more faith in man than in the Word of God. Very dangerous times that we are living in brother!

God bless you!

 

[Major]

To not know ALL the doctrine of the Pentecostal denomination doesn't mean I know NOTHING about them. I happen to know a lot about them, and your assertion about them is false.

With the free time you have, maybe you can bone up on them.

That is a real cute response, but you see it shows how you do not read what is said to you, you only understand what you want to.

I did not say I had a "Lot of time". I said that my time was "freeeee" in that I would not charge you for it.

Actually I do not have to do the study sister. I have spent many years identifying and speaking about false doctrines and theology and religion and study is not required at this point in my life.

If there is something you would like to know feel free (No Charge) to ask.

 

[Glomung]

This sounds like the Dark Ages where the church service was recited in an unknown tongue (Latin) and people were not allowed to read the scripture for themselves. Usually if there is something to hide that the bible exposes, that is when Satan tries to lock up the scripture.

You really need to check your facts on the history of the so called "Dark Ages". The vast majority of what people claim to have occurred in those times is a long way off from the reality of those times.

 

[Major]

You really need to check your facts on the history of the so called "Dark Ages". The vast majority of what people claim to have occurred in those times is a long way off from the reality of those times.

I do not know about that, but I do know that the Catholic Church became the most powerful institution of that period. Kings, queens and other leaders derived much of their power from their alliances with and protection of the Church. That is a well know historical fact.

It is also know that Pope Leo III named the Frankish king Charlemagne the “Emperor of the Romans” who was the first since that empire’s fall more than 300 years before. It is also known that over time, Charlemagne’s realm became the Holy Roman Empire, one of several political entities in Europe whose interests tended to align with those of the Church.

It is also well known that ordinary people across Europe had to “tithe” 10 percent of their earnings each year to the Church; at the same time, the Church was mostly exempt from taxation and it was these policies helped it to amass a great deal of money and power.

 

[Glomung]

I do not know about that, but I do know that the Catholic Church became the most powerful institution of that period. Kings, queens and other leaders derived much of their power from their alliances with and protection of the Church. That is a well know historical fact.

Of course it was the most powerful institution then, it represented God on Earth. Why would it not be?

It is also know that Pope Leo III named the Frankish king Charlemagne the “Emperor of the Romans” who was the first since that empire’s fall more than 300 years before. It is also known that over time, Charlemagne’s realm became the Holy Roman Empire, one of several political entities in Europe whose interests tended to align with those of the Church.

Charlemagne was a great man, he unified most of Europe and pretty much vanquished paganism throughout Europe. Europe exists today as it does largely due to him.

It is also well known that ordinary people across Europe had to “tithe” 10 percent of their earnings each year to the Church; at the same time, the Church was mostly exempt from taxation and it was these policies helped it to amass a great deal of money and power.

There are quite a few Christian denominations that promote tithing, why do you bring it up?
Aren't ALL churches exempt from taxation?
Does your church pay taxes? If so, why?
I don't see any virtue in having a weak church. If the church in Europe had been as weak and divided as churches are in the world now we would all be Moslems.

 

[Major]

Of course it was the most powerful institution then, it represented God on Earth. Why would it not be?


Charlemagne was a great man, he unified most of Europe and pretty much vanquished paganism throughout Europe. Europe exists today as it does largely due to him.


There are quite a few Christian denominations that promote tithing, why do you bring it up?
Aren't ALL churches exempt from taxation?
Does your church pay taxes? If so, why?
I don't see any virtue in having a weak church. If the church in Europe had been as weak and divided as churches are in the world now we would all be Moslems.

Obviously I did not state it correctly for you. With it's own laws, lands and taxes The Catholic church was a very powerful institution which had its own laws and lands. The Catholic Church also imposed taxes along with the tithe. In addition to collecting taxes, the Church also accepted gifts of all kinds from individuals who wanted special favors or wanted to be certain of a place in heaven.

 

[CCW95A]

You've hit on it, Major, the root of the problem. It's very dangerous for us to approach the word of God with pre-conceived ideas which result from being instructed in a particular school of theology. It results in a determination to make the scriptures fit the theology at all costs, which is an understandable reaction. If even one tenet of that theology is challenged and found to be false, it brings into question the whole system, and that can be a very alarming experience for the followers of the system. But this theological approach to the truth (which results in getting into all kinds of error instead) is a very cunning ploy of the enemy, because it brings Christianity down to the same level as man-made religions, by means of a man-made theology. That's a weak belief, brittle and easily shattered. It also results in bitterness and enmity between believers. A believer who's ensnared in the theology of a particular school is often as defensive and resistant to the truth as a Hindu, a Muslim, a Sikh, or a Buddhist would be. The devil knows very well that hades gates won't prevail against the Church, but he'll do all he can while he's able, to limit the response to God from His people through the most subtle means imaginable.

Brother, this might come as a surprise to you, but we do not understand the "Word of God" by reading it. No one reads the Word of God, as the "Word" is something that is spoken, and heard, never read!!! Which is what the word "Word" means. something that is spoken by God himself!! It is "scripture" that we read in the Bible. The Bible does not contain the Word of God, it contains scripture that testifies about Jesus Christ. Scripture, and the Word of God are not the same thing. The word "scripture" means something that is written down. The Word of God is what we "hear", and it is scripture that we read.

Jesus makes a distinction between the Word of God, and scripture.

Joh 5:37.. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 5:38.. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39.. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40.. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


Notice: Reading scripture does NOT lead a person to life, it is hearing the Word of God!!! These people were searching the scriptures to no avail. It is NOT reading the Bible, or scriptures that leads a person to salvation, it is only hearing the Word of God. The Bible does not say "let the scriptures dwell within you..." It says let the "Word of God dwell in you" The Word of God is what we hear, and scriptures are what we read. Jesus said my "Words are Spirit, and they are life" We do not read the Spirit, we hear the Spirit.

The common idea is that we are to read scriptures to learn the Word of God, which is a total misconception. No amount of reading the scriptures can ever teach you the Word of God, it is the other way around, and if we do that we will come up with all kinds dump things that are not true.
We hear the Word of God which teaches us the scriptures.

(NIV) Daniel 9:2.. in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.

Daniel "understood" the "scriptures" according to the Word of God!!! He did not understand the scriptures by other scriptures, but by the Word of God which we hear, and not read.

John 5:38 says, "ye have not his word abiding in you:....." The "Word" is not scripture, but what the Spirit says to them!!!

How do we know the difference between truth and error? It is not by using scripture, but by the Word of God which is found in the "anointing" of Christ in which we are to bring every thought into obedience to. We are not to bring every thought into obedience of the scriptures that are written down, but unto Christ (the anointing) which is how we hear the Word of God, and how we understand scriptures.

 

[Glomung]

Obviously I did not state it correctly for you. With it's own laws, lands and taxes The Catholic church was a very powerful institution which had its own laws and lands. The Catholic Church also imposed taxes along with the tithe. In addition to collecting taxes, the Church also accepted gifts of all kinds from individuals who wanted special favors or wanted to be certain of a place in heaven.

The sad thing is evil people often gravitate to positions of power, and abuse that power. The Catholic Church has not been immune to the wiles of the devil.
And because of that, evil things have been done in God's name. When you find a church that teaches the truth and has been free of the devil's influence I'll be first in line to join.
Until then I'll stay where I am, it's the best that is available here on Earth.

 

[Euphemia]

That is a real cute response, but you see it shows how you do not read what is said to you, you only understand what you want to.

I did not say I had a "Lot of time". I said that my time was "freeeee" in that I would not charge you for it.

Actually I do not have to do the study sister. I have spent many years identifying and speaking about false doctrines and theology and religion and study is not required at this point in my life.

If there is something you would like to know feel free (No Charge) to ask.

Free time in the English vernacular means time that needs to be filled up with doing something. You can study in yours.

 

[KingJ]

Free time in the English vernacular means time that needs to be filled up with doing something. You can study in yours.

The statement was 'time is free', not 'free time'.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Free time in the English vernacular means time that needs to be filled up with doing something. You can study in yours.

Euphemia Hello,
Hey I have to agree with Major on this one. He did say His time is "free" and
he did not say he had free time.....
Maybe it is time we all grasp that to go on with this is simply beating a dead horse.
God Bless
Jim

 

[Major]

Free time in the English vernacular means time that needs to be filled up with doing something. You can study in yours.

Euphemia. God bless you sister.
You can be sure that I will always be reading and studying the Word of God and I thank you for the encouragement to continue. The very moment we believe that we have arrived and can no longer learn from God's Word, we are then of no use to Him or ourselves anymore.

 

[Grant Melville]

Agreed.

You said..........."It also results in bitterness and enmity between believers."

That is my concern Grant. You and I have seen it right here in front of us. Someone will differ from someone else's religious tenants of faith and all of a sudden they are the enemy with others picking and chooses whose sides to be on and them condemning those they disagree with.

Take a notice when there is a debate or different of understanding how the division identifies itself by the "likes" that are given to the individuals involved. It is not about who is correct in their understanding according to the Scriptures but who it is that is posting their opinion.
That is truth by popularity and not by the Word of God.

I have seen this now on several Christian web sites recently and it is really disturbing. I am seeing that man is placing more faith in man than in the Word of God. Very dangerous times that we are living in brother!

God bless you!

Well, exactly. I often think of 1 Corinthians 11:19: "For there must also be sects among you, that the approved may become manifest among you." This is what we see so much of in Christendom, and yet the approved aren't becoming manifest, and sectarianism becomes acceptable. What Paul is addressing here isn't what we might call 'normal Christianity', the conditions proper to Christianity. Much was improper at Corinth. But there is a way forward in that, the approved become manifest. And, of course, the approval isn't yours or mine, it's divine approval. It would be clear - perhaps after a lengthy period of time - which of the brethren were going on with the truth, and which weren't. That is, however, if all were pursuing the truth - and I'm very much afraid that that isn't the case in Christendom today, and even among believers. There's pursuit of theological systems, and loyalty to so-called churches. There may be elements of truth in both these things, but they aren't the divine source, the fountainhead. We have to go to the fountainhead.
It's exactly what you say about man placing faith in man rather than the Word. We have teachers and shepherds - thanks be to God for them, but we must be aware that not all who call themselves or have the official title of teachers and shepherds are those things in reality. As I understand it, a teacher is a teacher because he teaches, and a shepherd (or 'pastor') is a shepherd because they shepherd. They've been given a spiritual gift by God, and are held responsible by God to use it. Man, essentially, doesn't enter into the process of that ordination, either to confirm it or to deny it: spiritually gifted persons are what they are, regardless of what title or place they have or don't have according to man's arrangements. The Lord says of false teachers, "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:16). He knew full well that these false teachers might well have the title and place among men of true teachers, and that they might well be more popular than gifted men speaking the truth. But their fruits expose them.

Anyway, I'm digressing. We are living in dangerous times, and there's no room whatsoever for complacency.

 

[Major]

Well, exactly. I often think of 1 Corinthians 11:19: "For there must also be sects among you, that the approved may become manifest among you." This is what we see so much of in Christendom, and yet the approved aren't becoming manifest, and sectarianism becomes acceptable. What Paul is addressing here isn't what we might call 'normal Christianity', the conditions proper to Christianity. Much was improper at Corinth. But there is a way forward in that, the approved become manifest. And, of course, the approval isn't yours or mine, it's divine approval. It would be clear - perhaps after a lengthy period of time - which of the brethren were going on with the truth, and which weren't. That is, however, if all were pursuing the truth - and I'm very much afraid that that isn't the case in Christendom today, and even among believers. There's pursuit of theological systems, and loyalty to so-called churches. There may be elements of truth in both these things, but they aren't the divine source, the fountainhead. We have to go to the fountainhead.
It's exactly what you say about man placing faith in man rather than the Word. We have teachers and shepherds - thanks be to God for them, but we must be aware that not all who call themselves or have the official title of teachers and shepherds are those things in reality. As I understand it, a teacher is a teacher because he teaches, and a shepherd (or 'pastor') is a shepherd because they shepherd. They've been given a spiritual gift by God, and are held responsible by God to use it. Man, essentially, doesn't enter into the process of that ordination, either to confirm it or to deny it: spiritually gifted persons are what they are, regardless of what title or place they have or don't have according to man's arrangements. The Lord says of false teachers, "By their fruits ye shall know them." (Matthew 7:16). He knew full well that these false teachers might well have the title and place among men of true teachers, and that they might well be more popular than gifted men speaking the truth. But their fruits expose them.

Anyway, I'm digressing. We are living in dangerous times, and there's no room whatsoever for complacency.

Good thoughts Grant. You are preaching to the choir!

 

[Grant Melville]

Brother, this might come as a surprise to you, but we do not understand the "Word of God" by reading it. No one reads the Word of God, as the "Word" is something that is spoken, and heard, never read!!! Which is what the word "Word" means. something that is spoken by God himself!! It is "scripture" that we read in the Bible. The Bible does not contain the Word of God, it contains scripture that testifies about Jesus Christ. Scripture, and the Word of God are not the same thing. The word "scripture" means something that is written down. The Word of God is what we "hear", and it is scripture that we read.

Jesus makes a distinction between the Word of God, and scripture.

Joh 5:37.. And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.
Joh 5:38.. And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.
Joh 5:39.. Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Joh 5:40.. And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.


Notice: Reading scripture does NOT lead a person to life, it is hearing the Word of God!!! These people were searching the scriptures to no avail. It is NOT reading the Bible, or scriptures that leads a person to salvation, it is only hearing the Word of God. The Bible does not say "let the scriptures dwell within you..." It says let the "Word of God dwell in you" The Word of God is what we hear, and scriptures are what we read. Jesus said my "Words are Spirit, and they are life" We do not read the Spirit, we hear the Spirit.

The common idea is that we are to read scriptures to learn the Word of God, which is a total misconception. No amount of reading the scriptures can ever teach you the Word of God, it is the other way around, and if we do that we will come up with all kinds dump things that are not true.
We hear the Word of God which teaches us the scriptures.

(NIV) Daniel 9:2.. in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, understood from the Scriptures, according to the word of the LORD given to Jeremiah the prophet, that the desolation of Jerusalem would last seventy years.

Daniel "understood" the "scriptures" according to the Word of God!!! He did not understand the scriptures by other scriptures, but by the Word of God which we hear, and not read.

John 5:38 says, "ye have not his word abiding in you:....." The "Word" is not scripture, but what the Spirit says to them!!!

How do we know the difference between truth and error? It is not by using scripture, but by the Word of God which is found in the "anointing" of Christ in which we are to bring every thought into obedience to. We are not to bring every thought into obedience of the scriptures that are written down, but unto Christ (the anointing) which is how we hear the Word of God, and how we understand scriptures.

Yes, I appreciate what you say. However, the scriptures are the word of God. What is contained in the scriptures is wholly, exclusively and entirely God's word - although the scriptures don't contain the whole word of God, of course. We have John's testimony regarding the deeds of the Lord Jesus in Manhood: "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they were written one by one, I suppose that not even the world itself would contain the books written." (John 21:25). No book could contain the things that Jesus did in that short span of life here, far less the whole of the divine Word. And, of course, the beginning of John's Gospel tells us that Jesus is "the Word".
I quite understand as well that reading the scriptures is no guarantee that we'll understand them: unbelievers read the scriptures as a historical record, or, worse, as an elaborate set of fictions, and understand none of them. Even we - believers - can read the scriptures and not get the gain of them, if we don't read them with the agency of the Holy Spirit, understanding what God would bring out from them. Reading and understanding the Bible requires subjection - subjection to the Spirit, subjection to our heavenly Head. Otherwise I might - unconsciously or otherwise - put my own construction on the words of scripture, and deviate from the will of God. I might try to make it fit with the theological ideas I've been taught, or with my own personal preferences and prejudices. This might gratify me in the short term, but it'll do immeasurably damage to me and to others in the long term. It's incomparably better to get divine understanding, to get, as you say, the living and operative word of God, and to go forward in the light of it.

That said, I would still have no hesitation in calling the scriptures God's word, because it is that. It's authoritative, it's complete - it's the standard by which we have to test everything that we receive by way of teaching.