Pastor system

I dont think the disciples had formal training in that they studied out of books and had classes.
Jesus teaching methods were hands on.

Also christians were kicked out of synagogues where they had formal meetings so they had to meet in homes. I think only in times of constantine where churches as buildings came to be a big thing, cos he wanted all those temples converted to his religion. Which I very much doubt he was truly born again.

Yes, when I use the word "temple" I am using it in the old way it was used since it stems from Jewish tradition. For instance, Christ had the temple destroyed and three days he would have it rebuilt. Even if we're to look at the spiritual meaning of it, the terminology was still used because of it's close ties to Judaism.

Constantine wasn't the guy that had big church buildings trending, though he permitted it after his conversion to Christianity and even permitted others when he issued the Edict of Tolerance. The oldest one that was used for worship predates Constantine and, I think, is actually in Syria.

Oh, and definitely. Their training wasn't what we would see today in seminaries where it was a study of early Church history and Greek and Hebrew and so forth. Part of this was because the training they did have of Jewish history came to them through the Old Testament that they grew up with as they were Jewish. They didn't use the New Testament to learn or history on the NT because it hadn't even been written and compiled yet. And even disciples of the apostles didn't have much of those formal references because they didn't have those yet either. So it did come from hands-on training from Christ.
 
That's a bit difficult to do as there is little that is set in a cut and clear system. There is a pattern laid out throughout Acts and the epistles.
1) They met primarily in homes. We meet primarily in large buildings (churches). This could have been because of persecution. It could have been because of low funds. It could have been because Jesus didn't need one (or recommend one) so they saw no need for it.

2) They gave all or as each had need. Even when they were told to gather the offering once a week, there was no mention of an amount. There was also no mention of it being required. They were told to give alms from what they had.

3) There was no formal training. The first disciples were uneducated and unlearned yet they changed the world (that hated them) by being obedient to Jesus. I have been referred to where Paul wrote Timothy to study to show himself approved. Paul was referring to scripture, and he wrote "approved unto God". He did not write "Go to an institution of learning" or "be approved unto man".

4) They acted on the belief that it was their responsibility to take care of those who could not take care of themselves (widows and orphans). We have almost entirely delegated this to the government.

5) They met often (daily) not just 1-3 times a week. No importance was placed on one day as being more important than another. Every day was to be spent in prayer, worship, and obedience.

6) We expect one person to perform oversight for hundreds of people. We are not told anything about this in the New Testament. Everywhere the apostles went they appointed "elders". They did not appoint a head pastor, assistant pastor, music minister, or any other form of hierarchy. Nothing states that one elder was over another.

When we go to church we are one of many. We can go there and make an appearance or get our spiritual food and never contribute. The bible tells us that all Christians are given 'gifts of the Spirit'. In allowing people to fade into the background we allow them to hide from what the Spirit is calling them to do. A few pastors cannot truly disciple people that they do not fully interact with. When the groups are smaller there is less chance to hide and more chance for people to know each other. When you know someone you know when they are hurting, when they are being persecuted, when they are falling into sin, and you can see the impact/blessing someone has on others (and themselves) when they use the gifts that the spirit has given them.

Paul often only knew of backsliders when he was told of them by the elders of the churches. Paul could not watch all these people. It is worth noting that he did not try. He responded to threats to the church (body of believers) and to those failings he was told of. He did not try to run himself ragged watching everyone. Jesus chose 12 men to be His disciples. Yes he did have many more, but he made a point of setting aside twelve people for close instruction. If Jesus did this then what business do have telling one person that they are in charge of dozens, hundreds, or more. I can do amazing things by letting the spirit use me, but I AM NOT JESUS. Jesus was God in the flesh and he chose ONLY twelve for direct discipleship. If we expect one person to disciple hundreds, that person will fail.

There are many mature believers that are not afforded the opportunity for speaking on what they have been shown (to the body or to individuals) because of the time requirements and because of misinterpretation of what the bible says about order in the church. We know that all were given the chance to speak in the first church. The benefits of this can be enormous. The Spirit may well have shown you something that I have yet to learn. There are few things more awesome than learning more about Jesus and what he has shown us. This also allows people to speak things that are not of God. This is another area where accountability comes in. A person may be new in faith and have made a mistake or been told something wrong by a false teacher. The Holy Spirit knows itself and what came from itself. Those that have learned to listen more closely (mature believers) need to correct, admonish, and encourage others whose hearing is still congested by more background noise.

You see, there are really NO set examples in the Scriptures. What you have produced is WHAT they did not WHY they did it. So you are challenging us today to do what was done 2000 years ago without any direction on WHY we need to do it today.
I would like to answer your points however.

1).
They met in homes in the beginning because there were no Christian churches. There was one Temple but it was not for rent to the new boy in town.
Many churches meet in homes today and many churches start just in that manner.

2.)
Correct on this one. It was a "communal" type of life. You must remember that there was not much to be had so it was important to share with one another. Early Christians suffered persecution as the result of local pagan populations putting pressure on the imperial authorities to take action against the Christians in their midst, who were thought to bring misfortune by their refusal to honour the gods. That made materials and food short supply hence SHARING.

3.)
Jesus, the MASTER teaching taught His disciples for 3 and 1/2 years. There is not a better teacher who ever lived.
Paul was taken to heaven and he was one of the most educated people in the Bible.

4.)
Different times require different measures of helping others. There was no welfare in Bible days. If you did not work you did not eat and as a result life spans were much shorter. However, because people live and work longer and give less to the church the church can not financially support all people. IF all church members tithed their income it would be able to do a lot more than it now does. Holy Ghost filled them with such love, as made every one to be to another as to himself, and so made all things common, not by destroying property, but doing away selfishness, and causing charity.

5.)
Acts 2:46 actually says..........."And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple........".
The simple answer is that in the very early days the followers of Jesus considered themselves to be Jews. They saw Jesus as the fulfilment of the Jewish laws and prophecies - that he had come to redeem Judaism and the Jews, not to set up another religion. The idea that Gentiles might be followers of Jesus without also becoming Jews would only be controversially considered many years later.

Therefore it is entirely natural that they would continue to meet in the Temple. They were also following Jesus' example, who had taught crowds in the Temple only a few months before. The Temple was much more than just the place of sacrifice - it was the central point of the Jewish religion, and the place to go to spread the word to other Jews.

6.)
Ephesians 4:11........
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers".

In I Timothy 3:1 Paul begins listing qualifications for the episkope. This word is translated "office of a bishop" in the KJV and this word is used to denote "someone who has been appointed to watch over".
 
Given that the example of church leadership we see described in scripture is something quite different than the customary model (senior pastor, music pastor, etc...) why do so many churches and denominations embrace the current system rather than working with or at least toward the system the bible demonstrates?

What, if any, is the biblical justification for using such a model?


You thoughts....?

My church is going through something pretty interesting right now, which is that the pastor has asked, effectively, is it the role of a pastor to be the Church on your behalf, or do you have a responsibility to be the Church yourself? I expect there will be fundamental changes to the church's structure once people begin to answer that question, and already some have left because they've been challenged to be the Church instead of simply attend church, and many others have stepped up to the challenge. I also expect that congregations who ask that question will end up looking fairly different from each other, because you're not asking, "how can we reflect the early church model, which we assume is our template" you're asking "how can we reflect Christ to our community in a way that addresses its unique needs, which is how we assume/observe the early churches decided on their structures."
 
My church is going through something pretty interesting right now, which is that the pastor has asked, effectively, is it the role of a pastor to be the Church on your behalf, or do you have a responsibility to be the Church yourself? I expect there will be fundamental changes to the church's structure once people begin to answer that question, and already some have left because they've been challenged to be the Church instead of simply attend church, and many others have stepped up to the challenge. I also expect that congregations who ask that question will end up looking fairly different from each other, because you're not asking, "how can we reflect the early church model, which we assume is our template" you're asking "how can we reflect Christ to our community in a way that addresses its unique needs, which is how we assume/observe the early churches decided on their structures."

Your pastor is doing a good thing.

The pulpit-centric church system doesn't work, and doesn't fulfill what God has called us to.
 
That's a bit difficult to do as there is little that is set in a cut and clear system. There is a pattern laid out throughout Acts and the epistles.
1) They met primarily in homes. We meet primarily in large buildings (churches). This could have been because of persecution. It could have been because of low funds. It could have been because Jesus didn't need one (or recommend one) so they saw no need for it.

2) They gave all or as each had need. Even when they were told to gather the offering once a week, there was no mention of an amount. There was also no mention of it being required. They were told to give alms from what they had.

3) There was no formal training. The first disciples were uneducated and unlearned yet they changed the world (that hated them) by being obedient to Jesus. I have been referred to where Paul wrote Timothy to study to show himself approved. Paul was referring to scripture, and he wrote "approved unto God". He did not write "Go to an institution of learning" or "be approved unto man".

4) They acted on the belief that it was their responsibility to take care of those who could not take care of themselves (widows and orphans). We have almost entirely delegated this to the government.

5) They met often (daily) not just 1-3 times a week. No importance was placed on one day as being more important than another. Every day was to be spent in prayer, worship, and obedience.

6) We expect one person to perform oversight for hundreds of people. We are not told anything about this in the New Testament. Everywhere the apostles went they appointed "elders". They did not appoint a head pastor, assistant pastor, music minister, or any other form of hierarchy. Nothing states that one elder was over another.

When we go to church we are one of many. We can go there and make an appearance or get our spiritual food and never contribute. The bible tells us that all Christians are given 'gifts of the Spirit'. In allowing people to fade into the background we allow them to hide from what the Spirit is calling them to do. A few pastors cannot truly disciple people that they do not fully interact with. When the groups are smaller there is less chance to hide and more chance for people to know each other. When you know someone you know when they are hurting, when they are being persecuted, when they are falling into sin, and you can see the impact/blessing someone has on others (and themselves) when they use the gifts that the spirit has given them.

Paul often only knew of backsliders when he was told of them by the elders of the churches. Paul could not watch all these people. It is worth noting that he did not try. He responded to threats to the church (body of believers) and to those failings he was told of. He did not try to run himself ragged watching everyone. Jesus chose 12 men to be His disciples. Yes he did have many more, but he made a point of setting aside twelve people for close instruction. If Jesus did this then what business do have telling one person that they are in charge of dozens, hundreds, or more. I can do amazing things by letting the spirit use me, but I AM NOT JESUS. Jesus was God in the flesh and he chose ONLY twelve for direct discipleship. If we expect one person to disciple hundreds, that person will fail.

There are many mature believers that are not afforded the opportunity for speaking on what they have been shown (to the body or to individuals) because of the time requirements and because of misinterpretation of what the bible says about order in the church. We know that all were given the chance to speak in the first church. The benefits of this can be enormous. The Spirit may well have shown you something that I have yet to learn. There are few things more awesome than learning more about Jesus and what he has shown us. This also allows people to speak things that are not of God. This is another area where accountability comes in. A person may be new in faith and have made a mistake or been told something wrong by a false teacher. The Holy Spirit knows itself and what came from itself. Those that have learned to listen more closely (mature believers) need to correct, admonish, and encourage others whose hearing is still congested by more background noise.

Some of what you say makes sense and some of what you are saying is still going on today just in a different light.
 
My church is going through something pretty interesting right now, which is that the pastor has asked, effectively, is it the role of a pastor to be the Church on your behalf, or do you have a responsibility to be the Church yourself? I expect there will be fundamental changes to the church's structure once people begin to answer that question, and already some have left because they've been challenged to be the Church instead of simply attend church, and many others have stepped up to the challenge. I also expect that congregations who ask that question will end up looking fairly different from each other, because you're not asking, "how can we reflect the early church model, which we assume is our template" you're asking "how can we reflect Christ to our community in a way that addresses its unique needs, which is how we assume/observe the early churches decided on their structures."

I like that! Change is neither god nor bad, but rather inevitable.
 
Your pastor is doing a good thing.

The pulpit-centric church system doesn't work, and doesn't fulfill what God has called us to.

It seems to me that would depend of the congregation. An older group would be more resistant to change than a younger congregation for example.
 
Greetings:
Years ago,children were busy working to support the family.Now,they watch junk and do graffiti.
So the churches need to hire a lot of different strategists for focusing them on the community of saints.

bye
 
It seems to me that would depend of the congregation. An older group would be more resistant to change than a younger congregation for example.

I have not seen that. A Spirit-led church doesn't resist change, but embraces it.
 
Is not Thee Change we are to be seeking from day one once we ask Christ into our hearts ?
This change should be an everyday on going event that we desirte with our whole being.
 
Well, the walk is daily, because Jesus taught the disciples to pray and ask God to give us our daily bread.
If it is not a daily walk, if its just a Sunday thing, then its just churchianty not christianity. With children it is really the parents responsibility to train them up in the way they should go. Our Father has to teach us...if our parents are believers then that is a bonus, but if not, then Sunday school is the next best option. Many unbelieving parents used to send their children to Sunday School, just to have a day off. Outside of Sunday School, if the child is truly born again, they will desire to know God each day and God will look after them.
 
I dont think the disciples had formal training in that they studied out of books and had classes.
Jesus teaching methods were hands on.

Also christians were kicked out of synagogues where they had formal meetings so they had to meet in homes. I think only in times of constantine where churches as buildings came to be a big thing, cos he wanted all those temples converted to his religion. Which I very much doubt he was truly born again.

DISCIPLES AND PAUL and so forth had thee very best training. Jesus and the Holy Spirit and God the Father. No middle man to foul things up. You do not have to seek others for wisdom when it is the spirit of God giving you the wisdom.
Blessings
 
well, we do have Jesus 'middle man' now if you think of it, the Holy Spirit, dwelling within us.
He guides is to all truth.
but note..Paul did not have Jesus training him in the flesh after he converted, as he had already ascended. Yet Paul became the greatest missionary.
He also had to unlearn all the Pharisees teaching during the 14 years he spent studying and time with the Lord in Arabia. At least, he does say something about 14 years, like they were preparation.
 
First 14 years of Pauls life after his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus
the Gospel I preach is not from man; nor did I receive it from men, nor was I taught it, but Jesus Christ revealed it to me" (Gal. 1:10-12).

"I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days -- Later I went to Syria and Cilicia. -- Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. I went in response to a revelation and set before them the Gospel that I preach among the Gentiles."
 
First 14 years of Pauls life after his encounter with Christ on the road to Damascus
the Gospel I preach is not from man; nor did I receive it from men, nor was I taught it, but Jesus Christ revealed it to me" (Gal. 1:10-12).

"I did not consult any man, nor did I go up to Jerusalem to see those who were apostles before I was, but I went immediately into Arabia and later returned to Damascus. Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas and stayed with him fifteen days -- Later I went to Syria and Cilicia. -- Fourteen years later I went up again to Jerusalem, this time with Barnabas. I took Titus along also. I went in response to a revelation and set before them the Gospel that I preach among the Gentiles."

There is that word again....."Hermeneutics"!!! Paul learned from the Master teacher the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
True, because I grew up in one and am now a member of one other---both being top notch churches. There is no need for one to shop around when God plants us where He wants us.

I am not talking about shopping around sister. God indeed places us where He wants us AT A SPECIFIC time but He does in fact move us somewhere else.

Job transfers. Moving to another city. There are all kinds of reasons why that happens which do not involve shopping around.

I am not saying that is right or wrong, only that it is real.
 
I am not talking about shopping around sister. God indeed places us where He wants us AT A SPECIFIC time but He does in fact move us somewhere else.

Job transfers. Moving to another city. There are all kinds of reasons why that happens which do not involve shopping around.

I am not saying that is right or wrong, only that it is real.

Yes, God does move people, sometimes.
 
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