Pastor system

[Lanolin]

It has only ever snowed once in Auckland. And I missed it! It didn't snow exactly where I was. But ever since I was little, we never got a days snow in Auckland. We do have frosts, but no snow. We have artificial snow in a fun park called Snow planet, and also Kelly Tarltons, they have a penguin enclosure with fake snow.

I saw my first snow falling in Queenstown on holiday. When people talk or sing about white christmases, I have to dream about it cos that never happens here.

 

[Juk]

I can agree in part with you. If you want a pastor who is compassionate and loving and caring who visits the sick and helps those he can get to in what ever way he possible can. Of course that requires no more education than a tractor driver.

In fact Martin Luther once warned Christians with these words: .......
"I greatly fear that schools for higher learning are wide gates to hell if they do not diligently teach the Holy Scripture and impress them on the young folk."

The great Reformer knew of the importance of Christian education and the development of Christian thinkers, but his great fear of schools as potential "wide gates to hell" is all too justified.

However......How can one claim to be able to explain what is in the Greek text or the Hebrew text if one has not had some detailed training in the original languages?

How can one claim to be able to explain the development of a theological principle in the context of what the Bible really says if theology has not been formally studied?

How can one pronounce upon historical and cultural details of the ancient world that illuminate and explain Bible passages if one has no formal training in ancient history or religious history?

What several of you are saying is that if God calls a man to preach God will then give him all the knowledge he needs with that man opening a book or listening to a teacher. That makes no sense to me at all.

Do we think that when we get saved God instantly fills our brains with Bible knowledge and understanding of theology principles.
That is simply not so my brothers and sisters. The Bible itself does not imply such a thing. The Bible says to "Study to show thy self approved a workman for God".

Again, Dr. Jesus TAUGHT His disciples theology and the finer things of belief and understanding so that they could teach others.
What do you thin they were doing for 3 1/2 years together. What do you think all of those lectures were about????

A true story which can be found in Dr. Jack Hyles books.

He was called to preach at 16 years old. His pastor then one day asked him to preach for the church. Dr. Hyles stood and read the Bible passage just as he seen his pastor do time and time again. Then he stood there at the pulpit for about 10 minutes and then without saying a word, he sat down.

His pastor said.....Jack, what happened. Do you not have an "OUTLINE" prepared for your sermon????

Dr. Hyles said..........."An Outline. What is an outline".!!!!

Think about it folks!

Lol Dr. Jesus.

 

[Euphemia]

I can agree in part with you. If you want a pastor who is compassionate and loving and caring who visits the sick and helps those he can get to in what ever way he possible can. Of course that requires no more education than a tractor driver.

In fact Martin Luther once warned Christians with these words: .......
"I greatly fear that schools for higher learning are wide gates to hell if they do not diligently teach the Holy Scripture and impress them on the young folk."

The great Reformer knew of the importance of Christian education and the development of Christian thinkers, but his great fear of schools as potential "wide gates to hell" is all too justified.

However......How can one claim to be able to explain what is in the Greek text or the Hebrew text if one has not had some detailed training in the original languages?

How can one claim to be able to explain the development of a theological principle in the context of what the Bible really says if theology has not been formally studied?

How can one pronounce upon historical and cultural details of the ancient world that illuminate and explain Bible passages if one has no formal training in ancient history or religious history?

What several of you are saying is that if God calls a man to preach God will then give him all the knowledge he needs with that man opening a book or listening to a teacher. That makes no sense to me at all.

Do we think that when we get saved God instantly fills our brains with Bible knowledge and understanding of theology principles.
That is simply not so my brothers and sisters. The Bible itself does not imply such a thing. The Bible says to "Study to show thy self approved a workman for God".

Again, Dr. Jesus TAUGHT His disciples theology and the finer things of belief and understanding so that they could teach others.
What do you thin they were doing for 3 1/2 years together. What do you think all of those lectures were about????

A true story which can be found in Dr. Jack Hyles books.

He was called to preach at 16 years old. His pastor then one day asked him to preach for the church. Dr. Hyles stood and read the Bible passage just as he seen his pastor do time and time again. Then he stood there at the pulpit for about 10 minutes and then without saying a word, he sat down.

His pastor said.....Jack, what happened. Do you not have an "OUTLINE" prepared for your sermon????

Dr. Hyles said..........."An Outline. What is an outline".!!!!

Think about it folks!

Pastors are people who care for the sheep. Teachers are people to open up and expound the word to us. Preachers are people who present the gospel truths to us. Formal training is good, but many times God does it---and ultimately He is the one who trains us. that is what Holy Spirit does in us----He gifts us with specific abilities and He trains us. Study is important, but God-directed study is immensely crucial to those who teach the word. God calls people, and the best people are those He equips.

 

[Major]

Pastors are people who care for the sheep. Teachers are people to open up and expound the word to us. Preachers are people who present the gospel truths to us. Formal training is good, but many times God does it---and ultimately He is the one who trains us. that is what Holy Spirit does in us----He gifts us with specific abilities and He trains us. Study is important, but God-directed study is immensely crucial to those who teach the word. God calls people, and the best people are those He equips.

Well, I disagree with this idea. I really am have problems believing we are even having this discussion to be totally honest.

A potentially good leader can only become an actually great leader if she or he has the necessary knowledge at his/her disposal to do so. The same thing applies if we are talking about a doctor or lawyer or policeman.

I simply do not understand the argument between Spirit led individual and people who are Spirit led and educated in the Christian field. Why do you think that there is some kind of difference????

Education does not determine who will be Spirit-led ... but it will determine whether or not the Spirit has anything of substance to work with in whom He seeks to lead the church..

Good character merely qualifies you to be a leader. Good education equips and empowers you to become one. You all are aware I hope the our military makes "officers" of those who have a college education for a reason.

The more I think about this the more troubled I am becoming over it and this is just a conversation I can no longer be a part of.

God bless you who are thinking a person/pastor needs no education.

 

[Major]

Pastors are people who care for the sheep. Teachers are people to open up and expound the word to us. Preachers are people who present the gospel truths to us. Formal training is good, but many times God does it---and ultimately He is the one who trains us. that is what Holy Spirit does in us----He gifts us with specific abilities and He trains us. Study is important, but God-directed study is immensely crucial to those who teach the word. God calls people, and the best people are those He equips.

The pastor is the one who feeds the sheep with the Word of God as he teaches and preaches it.

The pastor's goal is not to please the sheep, but to feed them--not to tickle their ears, but to nourish their souls. He is not to offer merely light snacks of spiritual milk, but the substantial meat of biblical truth. (Jeremiah 23:1-4; Ezekiel 34:2-10).

 

[Euphemia]

The pastor's goal is not to please the sheep, but to feed them--not to tickle their ears, but to nourish their souls. He is not to offer merely light snacks of spiritual milk, but the substantial meat of biblical truth. (Jeremiah 23:1-4; Ezekiel 34:2-10).

Where did I give you the impression that the sheep need to be pleased? Somehow you misread what I write. Why would that be?

No, the shepherd pleases God to do His bidding and not anyone else's.

 

[Major]

Major are you sure about this ?
Prayer changes things.
I only brought this up in the first place was because as of late there are more Believers being deceived into believing that they are getting the Spiritual Undertstanding (that only comes from God when we seek Him totally) by studying with a theology ONLY frame of mind and ONLY gaining head knowledge which is puffing them up with pride.

It a deception preparing for the BIG deception down the road is my entire point. It is a growing thing almost like a nerw fad these days in the body of Christ. This is all I was saying.
Blessings my friend and brother
jim

Sorry brother but I can not relate to your concerns. I have no knowledge of such people. Personally I have been educated in Bible Studies and Divinity and also Business Administration, and I have encouraged every single person who has had the calling of God upon their life to enter the ministry to continue their education.

It is IMPERITIVE that a person have the calling of the Holy Ghost on their lives in order to be leaders in God's church. Does a person HAVE to have a higher standard of learning to be a Godly man......of course NOT! However it has been my experience that those who do continue on for far longer serving God than the other group.

 

[Euphemia]

Sorry brother but I can not relate to your concerns. I have no knowledge of such people. Personally I have been educated in Bible Studies and Divinity and also Business Administration, and I have encouraged every single person who has had the calling of God upon their life to enter the ministry to continue their education.

It is IMPERITIVE that a person have the calling of the Holy Ghost on their lives in order to be leaders in God's church. Does a person HAVE to have a higher standard of learning to be a Godly man......of course NOT! However it has been my experience that those who do continue on for far longer serving God than the other group.

Well my pastor, who has never been to bible college has served our ever-growing congregation for over 30 years, with no hint of retirement in his immediate future. I've never known a finer man of God who knows the word and teaches it better, or raises up better leaders.

There is no difference between him and any other pastor who has been to bible college or seminary. That's because he is God-trained.

My own mother never got past 10th grade and she ended up through the Lord's anointing, as an executive secretary to the president of a corporation, and then was called into the ministry as an assistant to the pastor, and became a pastoral counselor, counselling people, including pastors. She became an expert in counselling adult survivors of childhood sexual abuse and incest. As the staff pastoral counselor of the church, she often took in Christian teaching classes and seminars to learn about the latest methods and issues in Christian counseling and every time she came back to report to the pastor, she was always amazed at the fact that the new ideas and methods that were offered and taught about, the Lord had already shown her and she had already been implementing them previous to the seminars! That was always a very sure confirmation that she was right where God wanted her and what He had been grooming her for over many years.

This is how God loves to work with fully yielded people.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Sorry brother but I can not relate to your concerns. I have no knowledge of such people. Personally I have been educated in Bible Studies and Divinity and also Business Administration, and I have encouraged every single person who has had the calling of God upon their life to enter the ministry to continue their education.

It is IMPERITIVE that a person have the calling of the Holy Ghost on their lives in order to be leaders in God's church. Does a person HAVE to have a higher standard of learning to be a Godly man......of course NOT! However it has been my experience that those who do continue on for far longer serving God than the other group.

Brother is is really ok !!
My concerns comes from a pssion to see Gods people living lives they were intended on living and when people lean on human reasoning over being Spirit lead it not only hurts or stunts their growth but it also pulls those who believe their take on things down to their level.

This is not about being educated but about belieivng through human undertstanding ONLY.
This limits God and allows satan to have an easier time in keeping Gods people in bondage.
Education via collage or seminary or what have you is a GOOD THING when it takes back seat to the Holy Spirit but when the Holy Spirit is stifled unto human reasoning then it is a sad day in the life of any believer.

God Bless My Friend and Enjoy thee Day He has Blessed you with !!
Jim

 

[/]

Staff Notice

I urge all participating members to find a civil dialogue once again.
This thread is begging to spiral away from civil conversations even if the points are just.
Please bare in mind the rules and please agree to disagree.

http://www.christianforumsite.com/threads/forum-rules.29546/

 

[eric m williams]

No military background....
More of business/secular world, that is “corporate”/body.... : )
As I see it: the Church organization/body does indeed copy/paste some of its “operations” from the secular/business
More so: the business world does copy/paste a lot of “operations” how the Military operates….

Aha, the reason I asked about you being military is your forum name.
The military loves its acronyms and, during my time in the army, AHA stood for 'Ammunition Holding Area'. I kept thinking of that every time I saw one of your posts.

 

[Lanolin]

naomos, sorry may be bit off topic, but..maybe you could just have a short vacation go up there to visit? With your wife, or maybe even just your on your own if she can't go with you, just for a few days. It sounds like you miss it. Must be hard to move somewhere and you miss you old place. Sometimes ppl need to be where they happiest. Maybe there's a sister church up there you can visit that could host you.

 

[aha]

Aha, the reason I asked about you being military is your forum name.
The military loves its acronyms and, during my time in the army, AHA stood for 'Ammunition Holding Area'. I kept thinking of that every time I saw one of your posts.

'Ammunition Holding Area', interesting, sounds like not a storage, but a depot for immediate replenishment near combat zone : )

Yes, while a find myself near combat zone* from time to time, see verse below.... I think that what friends are for : )

took that from “aha” expression, seems to me it is a universal expression for something that is been there all the time... and a revelation was revealed..

Proverbs 27:17New King James Version (NKJV)
17 As iron sharpens iron,
So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend.

 

[Arrie03]

You might need some spiritual glass's my friend ! LOL
As has been told to me, there are many levels of Christians in the Christian body. Some go from sunday to sunday and feed no more. There life will reflect this and be full of un-needed battles.

Then there are those who receive the word being taught and get built up and by tuesday morning forgot just about all they learned and try to feel as if they are putting into practice what they forgot.

Then there are those who go to church and get fed and receive the word and start out victorious through the week but by wednesday they are slowly fading and the devil is kicking their behinds back to last friday as Persecution comes for the word sake.

Then there are those ( I am one of these Praise God ) who get a copy of the service and play it on monday and here things that I missed sunday and so forth all through the week. These people also get into the written word of God and seek His guidance in learning to put into practice what they are learning. They meditate on His word especially that of what they have been learning and pray His word. They study and grow and produce fruit.

Now it would be so cool if some one wrote a book say called "Going to Church for dummies" I mean they got these books for everything else....
Hey hold on a minute........There is one written just for this.......it is called The Parable of the Sower and Mark 4 is my favorite !!

What we should be doing is encouraging and building up the body of Christ especially those who have NOT YET learned it is far better to stay planted in the word 7 days a week and get them working properally according to His very written word and let this complaining STOP about seat warmers and authority in the church and who has more power over who for in the end IT REALLY DOESN'T EVEN MATTER !!
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 GOD BLESS YA ALL
Jim

Thanks Jim.

You actually awaken a very good idea for me, and I'm going to have a chat with one of our church leaders.
Thanks brother.
For the record, I immediately knew you were on about the parable of the sower, it came to mind.
But yes, if we can get the seat warmers out talking rather than just living their usual secular lives, then we might just help change the world in bits.

 

[Arrie03]

Major are you sure about this ?
Prayer changes things.
I only brought this up in the first place was because as of late there are more Believers being deceived into believing that they are getting the Spiritual Undertstanding (that only comes from God when we seek Him totally) by studying with a theology ONLY frame of mind and ONLY gaining head knowledge which is puffing them up with pride.

It a deception preparing for the BIG deception down the road is my entire point. It is a growing thing almost like a nerw fad these days in the body of Christ. This is all I was saying.
Blessings my friend and brother
jim

Jim, I believe you are correct. We must come with everything from a place where God is first and everything. He must guide on everything, without compromise.
I also agree with Luther, education institutes without Holy Spirit at the helm is just a pitfall for our lives ones.
Our schools are being made void of Him.

 

[davidedmorn]

I observed in some churches, the pastor system was really good and we automatically involved in god through their prayer or speech. But, this kind of system is not followed by all the churches which was really not good for all.
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