Pastor system

eric m williams said:
Aha, if I may ask are you prior military?
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No military background....
More of business/secular world, that is “corporate”/body.... : )
As I see it: the Church organization/body does indeed copy/paste some of its “operations” from the secular/business
More so: the business world does copy/paste a lot of “operations” how the Military operates….
eric m williams said:
That covers the appointment of deacons and I don't think it really counts as being a hierarchy position as scripture describes it here.
Many churches who appoint deacons use them as elders or church heads, when that is not what they are supposed to be.
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Am pondering on the concept of "hierarchy" (that is: grouping, ranking) and that verse mentioned...

imo: Hierarchy is setting up priorities, ranking of what are more important things to do..

Thus, the “things to do” has now "ranks", which one is closest to its "mission" must have a "higher rank" than the other, imo

The moment we "appoint" a person to handle “things to do”..... Does the RANK of the “things to do” follows what will be the rank of that person? I think so…. that is an opinion, I can be wrong…

But/although, as I see it: regardless of 'rank", a person can be used for a good purpose that can be "closer" to the mission...

Is it Stephen, the one who "serves the table" is the first Christian martyr....
.... and in his martyrdom we found the first mention of the name of Saul/ Paul...
 
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There is no hierarchy in the Body of Christ, and as far as the local church goes, we are all equal and gifted with diverse gifts, each standing side by side and working shoulder to shoulder (which means equally) for he Kingdom of God.
 
Euphemia said:
gifted with diverse gifts
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Yes, thanks for that, that remind me of the 1 Corinthians 12

I do agree, there is no hierarchy, there are diverse activities but it all works for/from the same....
"There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 There are differences of ministries, but the same Lord. 6 And there are diversities of activities, but it is the same God who works all in all."
 
eric m williams said:
Given that the example of church leadership we see described in scripture is something quite different than the customary model (senior pastor, music pastor, etc...) why do so many churches and denominations embrace the current system rather than working with or at least toward the system the bible demonstrates?

What, if any, is the biblical justification for using such a model?


You thoughts....?
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The book of 1 Timothy is a great guide for pastors, I believe.
 
This one is easy to explain:
6) We expect one person to perform oversight for hundreds of people. We are not told anything about this in the New Testament. Everywhere the apostles went they appointed "elders". They did not appoint a head pastor, assistant pastor, music minister, or any other form of hierarchy. Nothing states that one elder was over another.

The people who come as the congregation is mostly lazy. They are seat warmers, not willing to do much. Therefore in the modern world, few does the work of many.
Sorry, I'm not trying to be negative, but that is the reason the church today does not go anywhere. The church today can be explained as a middle aged man with a very large blubbery middle section. (If I'm offending anyone in the physique, know that I also fall in this category)
The church has become a building - everyone flocks to it on Sunday to warm a seat and leaves, going back to their same old lives of fulfilling a secular purpose(mostly). The church of that time happened on the road, on the outside, they gathered to take account and have communion, and went out again into the fields for sowing and harvest.
If you tell people today that is what they need to do, they start to cry and feel sorry for themselves. Am I right or wrong?
 
it is no use blaming the system - if you belong to Jesus church, in your walk you will be doing all the things He asks, whether they are in some kind of assembly or other, if you go to a nominal church and subscribe to everything it does, you will be led astray.
 
If you take away the seats, there won't be any seat warmers.
also all those flashing lights and power points and sound cards..

Hold the service in a garden in spring. I really don't know why more churches don't hold gatherings outdoors in summer. I hate being stuck in a building when it's nice outside.
 
Anzac day service was at dawn and held outside. Before the helicopters flew overhead, three birds flew in formation. We all prayed. There were crowds of people. Many sang hymns. Those who had ears, heard. Those who didn't, went to see or were curious, but they were respectful. They made the effort to go and get up at dawn at least, to honor those who died and comfort those who still mourn.
 
Arrie03 said:
This one is easy to explain:

6) We expect one person to perform oversight for hundreds of people. We are not told anything about this in the New Testament. Everywhere the apostles went they appointed "elders". They did not appoint a head pastor, assistant pastor, music minister, or any other form of hierarchy. Nothing states that one elder was over another.


The people who come as the congregation is mostly lazy. They are seat warmers, not willing to do much. Therefore in the modern world, few does the work of many.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be negative, but that is the reason the church today does not go anywhere. The church today can be explained as a middle aged man with a very large blubbery middle section. (If I'm offending anyone in the physique, know that I also fall in this category)

The church has become a building - everyone flocks to it on Sunday to warm a seat and leaves, going back to their same old lives of fulfilling a secular purpose(mostly). The church of that time happened on the road, on the outside, they gathered to take account and have communion, and went out again into the fields for sowing and harvest.

If you tell people today that is what they need to do, they start to cry and feel sorry for themselves. Am I right or wrong?
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You might need some spiritual glass's my friend ! LOL
As has been told to me, there are many levels of Christians in the Christian body. Some go from sunday to sunday and feed no more. There life will reflect this and be full of un-needed battles.

Then there are those who receive the word being taught and get built up and by tuesday morning forgot just about all they learned and try to feel as if they are putting into practice what they forgot.

Then there are those who go to church and get fed and receive the word and start out victorious through the week but by wednesday they are slowly fading and the devil is kicking their behinds back to last friday as Persecution comes for the word sake.

Then there are those ( I am one of these Praise God ) who get a copy of the service and play it on monday and here things that I missed sunday and so forth all through the week. These people also get into the written word of God and seek His guidance in learning to put into practice what they are learning. They meditate on His word especially that of what they have been learning and pray His word. They study and grow and produce fruit.

Now it would be so cool if some one wrote a book say called "Going to Church for dummies" I mean they got these books for everything else....
Hey hold on a minute........There is one written just for this.......it is called The Parable of the Sower and Mark 4 is my favorite !!

What we should be doing is encouraging and building up the body of Christ especially those who have NOT YET learned it is far better to stay planted in the word 7 days a week and get them working properally according to His very written word and let this complaining STOP about seat warmers and authority in the church and who has more power over who for in the end IT REALLY DOESN'T EVEN MATTER !!
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 GOD BLESS YA ALL
Jim
 
Fish Catcher Jim said:
Yep He sure did but it was by the Spirit not a man made way to study !
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But wasn't Jesus the Man-God??? He was 100% MAN and 100% God. So in fact Paul was and the disciples were taught by a MAN made way of learning.

I really am struggling to try and understand why there is so much resentment from you and others to those who have gone onto to Christian seminaries to learn more about our Lord and His precious Bible.

I have read what you posted but it makes no sense to me. Would you like to try again and tell me why this is a problem for you.

I have stated that an auto mechanic goes to school to learn more about cars and how to fix them. Do you want someone with no education to fix that oil leak in your cars engine?

I have stated that a brain surgeon goes to school to learn how to fix you and me when we break. Do you really want some to operate on your brain who has never had any training in what to do once he opens your skull?

Isn't the proper education needed in Christian teaching so that the correct understanding goes out. If not the example will be people like Jim Jones and David Koresh. I do hope you can help me understand why you have this particular stance as I said, I really do not get it.
 
Not one pastor really needs seminary to become what God calls him to be. God equips those He calls, and the best pastors have come up from being the most faithful servants in the church, no job too demeaning for him/her. Pastors are servants and need that servant heart, and that pliability that God can work with.
 
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amen! I think those kinds of pastors should quit complaining and subtly mocking their own flock.

Ephesians chapter 4 verses 7 to 16 says God gives us different gifts and roles in his church for the purpose of perfecting the saints, the elders, those mature in faith, training the younger.

Some..apostles, some evangelists, some, prophets, some, pastors and teachers;

They are for...edifying of the saints. So that we are not children, so that we may grow.

If your congregation is not a holy spirit led one, possibly you may find God doesnt give anyone in your flock those gifts? IDK, I just sense a subtle attack on the way God orders and grows his church here. Its not saying, that some are above others cos we all the priesthood of believers, its that God has given those elders, those mature in faith gifts of these roles so they may be used to perfect the saints and build the church.

We cant all be pastors, teachers, prophets, evangelists, apostles all the time. Each of us has a special gift when we mature to use them to help others, the new ones coming to faith.

I dont think there is any cause for complaint...
 
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Question: "Should it be required that a man have formal Bible education before he can serve as a pastor?"

http://www.gotquestions.org/pastor-education.html

"The apostle Paul tells us in Ephesians 4:11–12 that when a man fills the office of evangelist, pastor, and teacher, his calling is actually a gift from God for the work of the church. "

"When someone is persuaded that he is being called to the ministry of the Word, he should seek to explore his gifts and prepare himself to answer that call. This is one of the key reasons for the existence of seminaries and Christian universities and why seeking such an education may be consistent with his call. At the same time, while formal Bible education is very important and valuable, with the power and wisdom of the indwelling Holy Spirit, God can enable a man with no formal Bible education to be an excellent pastor or elder."

 
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Just be careful, if you are going to attend a bible college or seminary that it is a holy spirit led one, not one with false teachers posing as christians!

In my church i did hear someone complain just cos they hadnt been to study they wernt allowed to speak in church, or preach. Um there is a reason for this! Ive known gung ho christians say...all churches bad! Im gonna start my own. God speaks to me! Er...what about the rest of us he also speaks to? It takes a lot of time and preparation before you ready to minister to others in a full time capacity.

Also, in Timothy, there are moral requirments to be a bishop, deacon, whatever. You have to have your own family in order first before you can instruct others in what to do! Young ones ought not to be puffed up just because they had a revelation from God. Even Paul was told he was puffed up...and given thorn in his side to deflate his huge ego.
 
Lanolin said:
Ive known gung ho christians say...all churches bad! Im gonna start my own. God speaks to me! Er...what about the rest of us he also speaks to?
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Yeah, precisely why I think/personal opinion: Church Teachers should have a license, or at least endorsed by a known/respected Church authorities.... reason is more on "Accountability".....
 
aha said:
Yeah, precisely why I think/personal opinion: Church Teachers should have a license, or at least endorsed by a known/respected Church authorities.... reason is more on "Accountability".....
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Although,,, that will be a question, I think: of separation of Church and State…

That is: why will the State regulate a teaching of Pastors (via license)….

Man-made laws has its good purpose I think....or, it can be used as an instrument, as I understand/as am re-reading Acts now.. it is the Roman Judicial system that prohibits Paul from death penalty by the the Jewish laws...
 
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Lanolin said:
If you take away the seats, there won't be any seat warmers.
also all those flashing lights and power points and sound cards..

Hold the service in a garden in spring. I really don't know why more churches don't hold gatherings outdoors in summer. I hate being stuck in a building when it's nice outside.
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I can tell you have never been to Florida. We do have four seasons here, they consist of hot, hotter, even hotter and down right torturous hot.
 
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