Politics,religeon And The Beast

[Major]

A question for the literalists. Where are you going to find 144,000 Jewish virgins that actually have any love for Christ?
I would assume that they are not literally Jews.

No Glo, literal is not in view and ................finding them is not my job. The point is, it is God's Word not my ability to find them. It is a matter of believing what God said.

Rev. 14:4
"These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are VIRGINS. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersover He goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the first fruits unto God and to the Lamb".

 

[Major]

JustPassing, your smarmy self-righteous attitude is noted, but not approved of. Perhaps a touch of humility might help?

The question was "what is replacement theology".

from CARM
Replacement theology is the teaching that the Christian church has replaced national Israel regarding the plan, purpose, and promises of God.
Therefore, many of the promises that God made to Israel must be spiritualized. For example, when it speaks of Israel being restored to the land, this really means that the Christian church will be blessed. Also, covenants made with Israel are fulfilled in the Christian church so, for example,

1. The Jewish people are no longer God's chosen people. Instead, the Christian church now makes up God's chosen people.
2. In the New Testament after Pentecost, the term "Israel" refers to the church.
3. The Mosaic covenant (Exodus 20) is replaced by the new covenant (Luke 22:20).
4. Actual circumcision is replaced by a circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29).

If you will pay some attention to the language that Jesus used to refer to both the Jews of His time and the believing gentiles you could understand that "Israel" is the body of believers (we were grafted onto the vine), and that the New Covenant fulfills/replaces all promises made to the Jews in antiquity.

Glo..........if you will read further down in the artical you posted from "Carm" you will find this..................................

"Though it is true that the church does replace Israel in some areas such as properly representing God on earth, acknowledging the promise of the Messiah, etc., it is not biblical to say that God is completely done with Israel and that the Christian church is its complete replacement.

"For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, lest you be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and thus all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, 'The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will remove ungodliness from Jacob,'” (Rom. 11:25-26).​

Some replacement theologians would teach that any mention of "Israel" after Acts chapter 2 (Pentecost) would be referring to the Christian church, but the above Scripture cannot be used to support that idea. In fact, it plainly contradicts it. Obviously, God is not done with Israel. The text tells us that God has hardened Israel but it also tells that disheartening is temporary."

 

[Panda]

This is a peculiar day. CARM actually stated something I can endorse? There has to be something farther down that contradicts this. That, or I need to change my views on this subject.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Calvin, I have procrastinated in responding to your post because my response is hard and something you probably won't want to hear, please remember iron sharpens iron and I'm saying this to you in humility, tenderness and the love of Christ (sentiments indistinguishable in this electric medium) to help and not hurt, so please pray about it and take it before the Lord.

Where do you find in Scripture verses teaching the members of the church belong to one of the 12 tribes of Israel?

Unless I have missed the verses in my Bible reading that is adding to the God's chosen people and taking away from the Church's place in the book of Revelation and John wrote, under Divine inspiration, serious consequences for people doing that, Rev 22:18-19, ...and with all my heart I don't want you to be one of them.

In His love,

Gene

p.s. I believe God, when speaking to Abraham, was alluding to his children as sand and stars, two distinctly different objects and I also believe we find this taught in the Revelation.

 

[calvin]

Calvin, I have procrastinated in responding to your post because my response is hard and something you probably won't want to hear, please remember iron sharpens iron and I'm saying this to you in humility, tenderness and the love of Christ (sentiments indistinguishable in this electric medium) to help and not hurt, so please pray about it and take it before the Lord.


Where do you find in Scripture verses teaching the members of the church belong to one of the 12 tribes of Israel?


Unless I have missed the verses in my Bible reading that is adding to the God's chosen people and taking away from the Church's place in the book of Revelation and John wrote, under Divine inspiration, serious consequences for people doing that, Rev 22:18-19, ...and with all my heart I don't want you to be one of them.


In His love,


Gene


p.s. I believe God, when speaking to Abraham, was alluding to his children as sand and stars, two distinctly different objects and I also believe we find this taught in the Revelation.

Gene, I too am a master of procrastination.
You misjudge me, I am interested in anything you have to say.
Even if I don't agree with you on any particular point, or you with me; I value your point of view and your input.
Also I respect and value your concern for my spiritual well being in not adding to scripture.
I wish to point out that I am not adding to scripture, though my interpretation of certain scriptures might not sit well with you.
I read somewhere that one can't make an omelet without breaking eggs

Some understanding about the scriptures as you know are derived from or by exegesis, and some are derived from or by eisegesis. There are and will always be bad exegesis as there will also be bad eisegesis. So one can't fairly be condemned over the other.
So be warned that I use both in what I believe is, and endeavor to maintain as a God honoring way. If the word eisegesis is like a red flag in front of a Bull to you then perhaps you would prefer to skip to the end.
What I am seeing in the following passages from Genesis is two and only two groups of offspring.
The first and major group is that group of offspring who will proceed from Abraham and continue through Isaac and Jacob.
The second group are counted through Hagar and Ishmael. They are not the children of promise.
Unlike you, I see only one group of Abraham's offspring. That group is likened in number to the dust of the earth (13:16) or to the number of stars in the heavens (15:5) or the grains of sand on the sea shores (22:17). Dust, sand or stars, these words are metaphor. But again note that though Ishmael is to father a great nation, it has no part in the Abramic covenant then or ever.
Gen 13:15 for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever.
Gen 13:16 I will make your offspring as the dust of the earth, so that if one can count the dust of the earth, your offspring also can be counted.
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 16:10The angel of the LORD also said to her, "I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for multitude."
Gen 16:11And the angel of the LORD said to her, "Behold, you are pregnant and shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because the LORD has listened to your affliction.
Gen 22:17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."
Next, I'm looking at the parable Jesus gave us starting in Luke 14:16-24 it is about a man, the master of his house (the Father) sending his servant (represented by the prophets) to those people who were invited to his banquet now that all was ready. These people were the sons of Israel, but they were not prepared to come to the master's house. Next the servant (Jesus) was sent to the poor and infirm. cf Matt 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Luke 4:18,19. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
They came to the banquet prepared for them, but there were still plenty of vacant places at the table. Next he sent his servant (represented by the apostles and evangelists and missionaries) to the Gentiles. Notice, that there is only one banquet prepared, but invitations extended to three classes of guests.
So regardless of how we wish to identify the servant figure in this parable, there is only one banquet.
Indeed with all of Jesus' parables involving banquets and marriage feasts there is only one ever mentioned.
Never is there mention of one table for the twelve tribes of Israel and another table set for the Christians of Gentile origin.
At this point I want to restate that I do not like labels, but sometimes they are unavoidable. So to forestall people jumping to conclusions falsely and branding me as subscribing to 'replacement theology', let me throw in a label of my own........Augmentation theology. I Googled it and found no entry so I claim it in the name of me

.


Now to the metaphoric use of the Olive trees and the various branches used by Paul.
It would be very poor eisegesis to try and fit the olive trees of Zechariah 4 and Revelation 11 into Romans 11, and that is exactly what I am not going to do.

Paul is discussing the failure of Israel to believe the gospel of the Lord Jesus as the Christ of God.
So beginning at v16:

Rom 11:16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Rom 11:19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

So then we have Paul speaking of the Gentile converts as coming from a wild Olive stock and being grafted into the good root stock which is Jesus.
Note carefully verses 25,26. A failure to grasp the significance of this will I believe entice an embrace of replacement theology.
These two verses considered alongside the parable of Luke 14 mentioned earlier and also the promises made by the lord to Abram/Abraham show that the Gentile Christians are to augment Israel.
There are only twelve tribes of Israel, even when talking about the New Jerusalem, there are no late additions:
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
Rev 21:12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—
The twelve tribes of Israel is all there is. We are not told of any second group of saved ones.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

The Gates of the City of the 'New Jerusalem' have the names of the twelve tribes of Isreal inscribed on them. It is not clear whether each gate has all twelve names or if each gate has only one name inscribed . It is by these gates that those who have washed their robes are to enter the city. Would you not choose the gate bearing your own family name to go in by?
Perhaps the angels standing by the gates will direct you to the correct gate, if that is one of their duties.

 

[Major]

Gene, I too am a master of procrastination.
You misjudge me, I am interested in anything you have to say.
Even if I don't agree with you on any particular point, or you with me; I value your point of view and your input.
Also I respect and value your concern for my spiritual well being in not adding to scripture.
I wish to point out that I am not adding to scripture, though my interpretation of certain scriptures might not sit well with you.
I read somewhere that one can't make an omelet without breaking eggs

Some understanding about the scriptures as you know are derived from or by exegesis, and some are derived from or by eisegesis. There are and will always be bad exegesis as there will also be bad eisegesis. So one can't fairly be condemned over the other.
So be warned that I use both in what I believe is, and endeavor to maintain as a God honoring way. If the word eisegesis is like a red flag in front of a Bull to you then perhaps you would prefer to skip to the end.
What I am seeing in the following passages from Genesis is two and only two groups of offspring.
The first and major group is that group of offspring who will proceed from Abraham and continue through Isaac and Jacob.
The second group are counted through Hagar and Ishmael. They are not the children of promise.
Unlike you, I see only one group of Abraham's offspring. That group is likened in number to the dust of the earth (13:16) or to the number of stars in the heavens (15:5) or the grains of sand on the sea shores (22:17). Dust, sand or stars, these words are metaphor. But again note that though Ishmael is to father a great nation, it has no part in the Abramic covenant then or ever.
Gen 13:15 for all the land that you see I will give to you and to your offspring forever.
Gen 13:16 I will make your offspring as the dust of the earth, so that if one can count the dust of the earth, your offspring also can be counted.
Gen 15:5 And he brought him outside and said, "Look toward heaven, and number the stars, if you are able to number them." Then he said to him, "So shall your offspring be."
Gen 16:10The angel of the LORD also said to her, "I will surely multiply your offspring so that they cannot be numbered for multitude."
Gen 16:11And the angel of the LORD said to her, "Behold, you are pregnant and shall bear a son. You shall call his name Ishmael, because the LORD has listened to your affliction.
Gen 22:17 I will surely bless you, and I will surely multiply your offspring as the stars of heaven and as the sand that is on the seashore. And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,
Gen 22:18 and in your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice."
Next, I'm looking at the parable Jesus gave us starting in Luke 14:16-24 it is about a man, the master of his house (the Father) sending his servant (represented by the prophets) to those people who were invited to his banquet now that all was ready. These people were the sons of Israel, but they were not prepared to come to the master's house. Next the servant (Jesus) was sent to the poor and infirm. cf Matt 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Luke 4:18,19. "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed, to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
They came to the banquet prepared for them, but there were still plenty of vacant places at the table. Next he sent his servant (represented by the apostles and evangelists and missionaries) to the Gentiles. Notice, that there is only one banquet prepared, but invitations extended to three classes of guests.
So regardless of how we wish to identify the servant figure in this parable, there is only one banquet.
Indeed with all of Jesus' parables involving banquets and marriage feasts there is only one ever mentioned.
Never is there mention of one table for the twelve tribes of Israel and another table set for the Christians of Gentile origin.
At this point I want to restate that I do not like labels, but sometimes they are unavoidable. So to forestall people jumping to conclusions falsely and branding me as subscribing to 'replacement theology', let me throw in a label of my own........Augmentation theology. I Googled it and found no entry so I claim it in the name of me

.


Now to the metaphoric use of the Olive trees and the various branches used by Paul.
It would be very poor eisegesis to try and fit the olive trees of Zechariah 4 and Revelation 11 into Romans 11, and that is exactly what I am not going to do.

Paul is discussing the failure of Israel to believe the gospel of the Lord Jesus as the Christ of God.
So beginning at v16:

Rom 11:16 If the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, so is the whole lump, and if the root is holy, so are the branches.
Rom 11:17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,
Rom 11:18 do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.
Rom 11:19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
Rom 11:20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.
Rom 11:21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.
Rom 11:22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Rom 11:26 And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, "The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob";

So then we have Paul speaking of the Gentile converts as coming from a wild Olive stock and being grafted into the good root stock which is Jesus.
Note carefully verses 25,26. A failure to grasp the significance of this will I believe entice an embrace of replacement theology.
These two verses considered alongside the parable of Luke 14 mentioned earlier and also the promises made by the lord to Abram/Abraham show that the Gentile Christians are to augment Israel.
There are only twelve tribes of Israel, even when talking about the New Jerusalem, there are no late additions:
Rev 21:10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a great, high mountain, and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God,
Rev 21:11 having the glory of God, its radiance like a most rare jewel, like a jasper, clear as crystal.
Rev 21:12 It had a great, high wall, with twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and on the gates the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel were inscribed—
The twelve tribes of Israel is all there is. We are not told of any second group of saved ones.
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

The Gates of the City of the 'New Jerusalem' have the names of the twelve tribes of Isreal inscribed on them. It is not clear whether each gate has all twelve names or if each gate has only one name inscribed . It is by these gates that those who have washed their robes are to enter the city. Would you not choose the gate bearing your own family name to go in by?
Perhaps the angels standing by the gates will direct you to the correct gate, if that is one of their duties.

NOW........this recent exchange between Gene & calvin is a perfect example of how to communicate and get along with out confrontation and arrogance fueling the conversation.

Congratulations to Gene & calvin!!!!

Excellant job and may God get all the glory!!

 

[JustPassingThru]

Hey Calvin,

You are right about me not putting any confidence in eisegesis, I'm a firm believer in, "My thoughts are not your thoughts," however I will throw a monkey wrench in what you think about Ismael, Ge 22:2,12,16, ...God did not recognize him to be a son of Abraham because he was a product of Abe's flesh, ...kinda like eisegesis, don't ya think. But lets dig deeper,

And your offspring shall possess the gate of his enemies,

the Ismaelits want to own the land given to Abraham's descends, that's the cause of all the turmoil in the Middle East today, isn't it, but Scripture teaches they never will,

by your offspring shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed my voice.

The descendents of Ismael blessing the world? Don't you think if the truth be told, the majority, if not all of the population of the world today, wish the Ismaelits would disappear, and Abraham didn't obey God, God told him not to go to Egypt.

Next..., bro you are not rightly dividing the Word,

In Luke 14 you can't stop at vs 24 because Jesus explains the signification of the parable in vs 26, 27 and He is talking about becoming one of His disciples, ...it's not that the "invitees" weren't prepared, but rather they gave stupid excuses, who would buy land sight unseen, or a team of oxen without first trying them, or get married on the spur of the moment?

Matt 24:15, this is a perfect example of and teaches about people using the name of "Jesus" that aren't His children, they talk the talk and there are lots of them today, but aren't really His. The lady was a Canaanite, but she had heard the "correct" terminology (Christianese, talk the talk), she thought she could use it too and it would work for her, hence Jesus showing her she wasn't a Jew, however when in humility she stopped the pretense and humbly addressed Him as Lord, approached Him correctly, He heard her, commended her and granted her petition.

Luke 4:18, 19 is where Jesus, at the beginning of His ministry, presented Himself as the Christ to the Jewish nation.

So bro, I can't see where you can reliably exegete the verses you used to arrive at the conclusions you have stated, but I will agree with you there is only one real banquet, not hypothetical and it's the marriage Supper of the Lamb, Rev chapters 4 &5.

show that the Gentile Christians are to augment Israel.

Grafting, the example Paul is using, doesn't augment in this sense, the graft is different from the root stock which is disease resistant but doesn't produce fruit, hence the need to graft to it, and in grafting the root stock doesn't produce fruit, only the branch grafted in produces fruit which agrees completely with Jesus cursing the olive tree and stating the Jewish system of the Law will never produce any fruit again, ...hence the need for a new dispensation, the dispensation of Grace that Paul teaches in Eph 3:2, so let's put the tree together, the Gospel was first preached to the Jews, the root stock, that tree stopped producing fruit so it was cut off below the first branch and the Church was grafted in to preach the Gospel and produce fruit, after the rapture of the Church the final 7 years of Daniel's prophecy has to be fulfilled and Israel will recognize Jesus as their Messiah (remember the 144,000 Jewish Evangelists), that fruitful part of Judaism will be grafted on to the tree above the Church graft and the whole tree makes up the people of the Kingdom of God, Old Testament Saints, Church Saints and Tribulation Saints, they will be the people of the Kingdom when Jesus come to claim His throne on earth, ...keep in mind the Kingdom is inside of us and not visible to the world today.

Now I don't claim to fully understand this and I don't think we will until we are there, but you have started too soon in Rev 21, you/we need to start reading in vs 9, what did the angel show John, ...it states is was the Bride, but now she is called His Wife, then what did John see, New Jerusalem.

Look at the foundation first before the doors, it's the Apostles, the city is built on them, i.e. the Gospel and then on the doors are the names of the 12 tribes, kinda looks to me like it's a picture of our grafted olive tree, ...but who can say what the future will be, except God.

Now let's play the what if game, you, me and a couple of Jewish bros come back from cruising the universe, we're thirsty and want a drink, each of the brothers splits off and goes to his respective door, shows his badge and the angel lets them enter, what door are we going to use, ...or do we tunnel through the foundation?

Blessings bro,

Gene