Politics,religeon And The Beast

[calvin]

Calvin, we need to have some sort of test to authenticate if what we believe is the Truth, as intended by the Author, don't you agree?

Here is my reasoning for that, since were are expounding Scripture in a public forum then we need to be certain what we are saying is the correct interpretation as intended by the Author, because He said through James that those assuming to teach will be judged more severely (not salvation, but rather our recompense and or time on earth), James 3:1, because Jesus taught that if one should offend one (cause them to stumble, lead them away from the Truth) that is new or untaught in their faith, it would be better if he were drowned in the sea. Luke 17:2 Now, I don't want either one of those acts of correction or discipline to fall on me or any one else.

Here is what I have been using for many years now and it has never failed me yet: if there is just one verse or principle in Scripture that contradicts what I believe to be the correct interpretation then my interpretation is wrong, would you agree that would be an accurate way to judge interpretation?

I like to apply the testimony of two or three witnesses where I can Gene.

We know Jesus was a Jew and many of His parables were taken from Jewish customs, such is the case for the scroll, the scroll is the title deed to the earth that Adam forfeited to Satan, Jesus didn't dispute Satan's ownership when he tempted Him, so what we have in chapter 5 is the time for redeeming the title of the earth, the writing inside was the information of the property such as we have on the deeds we possess, the writing on the outside was the terms necessary for redemption (according to Jewish custom),

Gene another way of looking at it would be that ownership was never in question...it did not need disputing. see Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey my voice and keep my covenant, you shall be my treasured possession among all peoples, for all the earth is mine;

John wept because no man living or dead could redeem it, however, there was a Man, Jesus the second Adam that had prevailed against all temptations (and may I suggest He suffered more than the three temptations recorded, but rather living a perfect life, He was faultless in the subjects of the first 7 dispensations) and the seven seals could possible be the 7 failures of man from each dispensation. Whatever..., John wept, if what you are proposing is true then that makes John a monster, weeping that the scroll could not be opened and unleash such horrific destruction on mankind as you have described, that doesn't correspond with the changing of the character of the Son of Thunder who was predestined throughout his lifetime to be conformed into the image of the Lord Jesus, later known as the John the Beloved at the time of his writing the Apocalypse.

Gene I'm having difficulty following your reasoning here. With the scroll sealed up and unopened neither John nor anyone else knew the contents.....only the author. Consider Matt 24:36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
and Mar 13:32 "But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. two witnesses of Scripture. It is hard to understand why the lack of qualified persons to loose the seals would evoke such emotion, perhaps John saw that scroll as something other than a title deed since ownership was not an issue.
Let's review the instances of scrolls used in Prophesy and what they seemed to represent.
Jer 36:2. The Prophetic word of the Lord to Israel and Judah. Eze 2:9,10. Notice the similarity here with the Scroll in Rev Ch5. Eze 3:1,2,3. the word of the Lord to the house of Israel. Notice that it is sweet in the mouth. Zec 5:1,2. Then Rev 10:2-10 Note that it too is sweet to taste, but also bitter to digest.

Snip

Gene

 

[Major]

Not sure what you are counting as 3 sets. If you are counting the seals as judgments, I'm not convinced that is the right way to view them. I see them as similar to chapter markers.

Chapter 6..... ....7 Seal Judgements = 1st set of 7

Chapter 8..... .... 7 Trumpet Judgments = 2nd set of 7

Chapter 16-18....7 Bowl Judgments = 3rd set of 7.

 

[calvin]

OK thanks major, I still would not be inclined to call them judgments, but as long as we know what we each mean, then we can have meaningful discussion. There is some judgment within those seals, I'll not deny that. (how's that for double dutch?)

 

[calvin]

Ohh....sorry to confuse the issue Major, I meant that I'm not inclined to call the seals 'judgments', though they do unveil some judgments. The trumpets and bowls are certainly judgments.

Gene, where are you sir?

 

[Major]

Ohh....sorry to confuse the issue Major, I meant that I'm not inclined to call the seals 'judgments', though they do unveil some judgments. The trumpets and bowls are certainly judgments.

Gene, where are you sir?

I knew what you meant calvin and I was just explaing a different way. I do not actually think that will be the case but it didnt cost anything to say it.

I think our friend Gene has left us.

 

[calvin]

Yes it is very possible.

Would it also then be just as possible that the 3 sets of judgments are 3 different views of the same thing with all 3 ending at Armageddon?

Glad to see you are back!

Glad to be back.
Major, it seems to me that the sixth seal and the sixth trumpet and the sixth bowl finish with a trip to Armageddon.
The sixth seal, while not as explicit Armageddon wise, as the other two, does seem to show the culmination of Earth history as do the latter sixth judgments.
It is interesting that the trumpet judgments specify a destruction of 1/3 of their targets see Eze 5. maybe, while the bowl judgments only imply that their destructiveness is not total.

 

[Major]

Glad to be back.
Major, it seems to me that the sixth seal and the sixth trumpet and the sixth bowl finish with a trip to Armageddon.
The sixth seal, while not as explicit Armageddon wise, as the other two, does seem to show the culmination of Earth history as do the latter sixth judgments.
It is interesting that the trumpet judgments specify a destruction of 1/3 of their targets see Eze 5. maybe, while the bowl judgments only imply that their destructiveness is not total.

But the next set of judgments are more severe which seems to say that each set of 7 judgments are in chronological order of severity ending at Armageddon.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Hey guys, sorry to leave you hanging, I'm in charge of removing 9200 square feet of Spanish Tile from my boss's house and replacing it with corrugated aluminum roofing, and I have to finish before the rainy season that starts in a few weeks, been working from 6:30 AM 'til 5:00-5:30 PM, ...I'm too old for this!

I'll try to catch up and give you some responses to your posts.

Later,

Gene

 

[calvin]

OK Gene, please be sure to exercise extreme safety working up on the roof. Chat with you when you have some free time.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Thanks Calvin for the concern, but I'm on the ground, we supervise the project, ...estimate the quantities, order the materials, make sure the work is done correctly (we have a good contractor), the highest I get is the seat of the forklift. LOL

This job is on top of the 78 apartments and 8 houses I do the daily maintenance on so you can see why I'm behind.

I'm home for lunch today doing a take off for another project. Hopefully I'll have some time tonight to read some posts.

Gene

 

[Major]

Thanks Calvin for the concern, but I'm on the ground, we supervise the project, ...estimate the quantities, order the materials, make sure the work is done correctly (we have a good contractor), the highest I get is the seat of the forklift. LOL

This job is on top of the 78 apartments and 8 houses I do the daily maintenance on so you can see why I'm behind.

I'm home for lunch today doing a take off for another project. Hopefully I'll have some time tonight to read some posts.

Gene

Welcome back. We missed you !

I worked in the roofing business back in 1966 during the summer and I can say without a doubt that it is one of the most difficult jobs in all the world to do.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Yes, you may.
I want to believe what is true. I have studied many interpretations, by many different but 'Godly' persons, but every understanding I have read (my own included) seems flawed in some way or other. (see the closing statement of mine in post# 111.)


Calvin, studying and reading commentaries are good things to do, but ultimately it's the Holy Spirit that teaches us all things, yes He uses men to speak for Him, but I have found that the men He uses have the gift of teaching, that is the meaning of, "those that have an ear hear what the Holy Spirit is saying to the church," when He is teaching through them as we are listening He is testifying to our spirit that's it's true. So to learn we need to be involved in a church where the gifts are in operation "correctly" and in order.


May I ask how big is your God, could He do all of what is written from chapter 6 through 19 and stretch it out over 7 years?

Gene

 

[JustPassingThru]

I like to apply the testimony of two or three witnesses where I can Gene.

It been many years, but if I remember correctly there are literally hundreds of Old Testament references in Revelation, I'll try to find the verification for that.

Gene another way of looking at it would be that ownership was never in question...it did not need disputing.

?????? Who does Jesus call the prince of this world, who tempted Jesus with all of the authority of the world, who did the first Adam forfeit the world to? If satan is the prince of this world and the world is not redeemed by a man then God is a liar or He is not Just when He destroys the heavens and the earth, i.e. property that He doesn't own.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Gene I'm having difficulty following your reasoning here. With the scroll sealed up and unopened neither John nor anyone else knew the contents.....only the author. Consider Matt 24:36 "But concerning that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father only.
and Mar 13:32 "But concerning that day or that hour, no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. two witnesses of Scripture. It is hard to understand why the lack of qualified persons to loose the seals would evoke such emotion, perhaps John saw that scroll as something other than a title deed since ownership was not an issue.

How does a reference to the Rapture of the Church (which took place at the beginning of chapter 4) fit into a scene in chapter 5 with the Church already in Heaven?


Gene

 

[JustPassingThru]

The Tribulation is the 7th dispensation, the six seals come from the 6 dispensations that have passed before it, each seal is a judgement against man for each dispensation that he failed to live up to God's perfection, ...you're making it too hard guys, Jesus said, "unless you are converted and become like little children,"

Gene

 

[JustPassingThru]

Here's a possibility, I'm not saying this is correct, we'll only know for sure when we get there, but it makes sense.

Seal Judgements, men call them the Wrath of the Lamb.

Trumpet Judgements, prayers from the incense alter (prayers of the saints) were hurled to earth, Paul teaches we don't know how to pray so the Holy Spirit intercedes for us.

Bowl Judgements, Throne Room of God (Father) who's righteous judgement hit His Son, those left on the earth who haven't been covered by His Blood will feel His wrath.

Good night

Gene

 

[calvin]

It been many years, but if I remember correctly there are literally hundreds of Old Testament references in Revelation, I'll try to find the verification for that.



?????? Who does Jesus call the prince of this world, who tempted Jesus with all of the authority of the world, who did the first Adam forfeit the world to? If satan is the prince of this world and the world is not redeemed by a man then God is a liar or He is not Just when He destroys the heavens and the earth, i.e. property that He doesn't own.

G'day Gene, you certainly came back with a whoomph.
So yes there are indeed many references to Revelation in the OT. You can list them for reference sake if you like, but I need no convincing.

But tell me please, why do you say that the rapture took place at the beginning of ch 4? Major will agree with you on this, but frankly I don't see it. We have the 'servants of God' being sealed in Ch 7,
We also have Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe."
Rev 14:16 So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, "Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe."
Rev 14:19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia. The two Sickle harvests (ch14) are clearly the rapture, followed by finis.
Then too, we have Rev 16:15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!") And...
Ch 16 seems to be referring to the same event as
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.,
2Pet3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. and
Rev 3:3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.
Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; So, 'my people' are still here at the time of Ch18.
These are the passages that are telling me that the rapture does not take place at the beginning of Ch 4, or rather that ch 5 to ch 20 do not take place after the rapture, that is to say they are not all post rapture events.

 

[Major]

G'day Gene, you certainly came back with a whoomph.
So yes there are indeed many references to Revelation in the OT. You can list them for reference sake if you like, but I need no convincing.

But tell me please, why do you say that the rapture took place at the beginning of ch 4? Major will agree with you on this, but frankly I don't see it. We have the 'servants of God' being sealed in Ch 7,
We also have Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe."
Rev 14:16 So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, "Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe."
Rev 14:19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia. The two Sickle harvests (ch14) are clearly the rapture, followed by finis.
Then too, we have Rev 16:15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!") And...
Ch 16 seems to be referring to the same event as
1Th 5:2 For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.,
2Pet3:10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed. and
Rev 3:3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you.
Rev 18:4 Then I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you take part in her sins, lest you share in her plagues; So, 'my people' are still here at the time of Ch18.
These are the passages that are telling me that the rapture does not take place at the beginning of Ch 4, or rather that ch 5 to ch 20 do not take place after the rapture, that is to say they are not all post rapture events.

calvin........."But tell me please, why do you say that the rapture took place at the beginning of ch 4? Major will agree with you on this, but frankly I don't see it. We have the 'servants of God' being sealed in Ch 7,"

May I say that the reason I think that is not Biblical but is just my opinion. I am one of those people that must have everything "fit" for me to feel comfortable. This one of those things because it allows me to understand the chronolocial order of events that are coming.

Here is my thinking and it is MINE and anyone can disgree and we will still be the best of friends.

Rev. 4:1
"After this".............
This appears to me that the church has run its course and the dispensation concerning the church have been completed.

"I looked and behold a door was opened in heaven"................

John 10:9 says that Jesus is that DOOR. John 14:6 says that He is the WAY the TRUTH and the LIFE and He is the only way to God.

The entire situation now changes. Up to this point in the Revelation, John is seen here on the earth and the events of chapter 2 & 3 took place right here on the earth. BUT.......the command of the VOICE is now........."COME UP HITHER"!

Therefore John leaves the earth and is caught up in the Spirit to heaven to witness and record the visions that remain in the book of the Revelation.

After His resurrection He ascended to Heaven and called John (In the Spirit) up to where He is. He opened the door, and John stepped into heaven to witness the events that were to follow. IMHO this is a true picture of the Rapture. John experienced in the Spirit what will literally take place when the Rapture takes place as explained in 1 Thess. 4:14-18.

From Rev. 4:1 on to the end of the book, the scene is of the future and ALL of the prophecies listed in Scripture which have not yet taken place, will be fulfilled in the next 7 years.

Again.........no one has to accept my thinking on this.

 

[Major]

G'day Gene, you certainly came back with a whoomph.
So yes there are indeed many references to Revelation in the OT. You can list them for reference sake if you like, but I need no convincing.

Rev 14:14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand.
Rev 14:15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, "Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe."
Rev 14:16 So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.
Rev 14:17 Then another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle.
Rev 14:18 And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, "Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe."
Rev 14:19 So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
Rev 14:20 And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse's bridle, for 1,600 stadia. The two Sickle harvests (ch14) are clearly the rapture, followed by finis.
Then too, we have Rev 16:15 ("Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!") And...

Sorry calvin, but I believe chapter 14 is a picture of Armageddon, not the Rapture.
Verses 14-16 are a picture Christs judgment as a grain harvest, and verses 17-20 pictures the same event as a grape harvest.

Notice that when Jesus comes at the Rapture He comes with a "Trumpet Voice". The shout will be.......
"COME UP HITHER", which is the same thing He says to John in Rev. 4:1.

But in Rev. 14 He is seen comeing with a sharp sickle in His hand. The sickle is a picture of harvest. The Lamb of God is about to reap the harvest of the earth. He will seperate the tares from the wheat and it will be a time of blood. BUT............
those who are born again are SAVED from this time of wrath by the Rapture 7 years earlier.

Verse 16........"And He that sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth and the earth was reaped".

Judgment day comes!!!!

When the day of judgment comes, men will then experience the plagues explained in chapters 15-16.

 

[JustPassingThru]

But tell me please, why do you say that the rapture took place at the beginning of ch 4? Major will agree with you on this, but frankly I don't see it. We have the 'servants of God' being sealed in Ch 7,

Calvin it's not me "saying" this, it's what God has said. Major gave you the correct teaching about Chapter 4, here's a few more examples of what He has said throughout Scripture.

1. Enoch walked with God and then disappeared, a "type" of the rapture of the Church before God's judgement came on the world.
2. Moses striking the rock two times, if the church goes through the Trib then God will have to apologize to Moses, because He is striking His Son a second time, making God unfaithful, untrustworthy, not a Man of His Word, which leaves us without hope, because we can't trust Him to do what He has said He will do.
3. Paul taught the Thessalonians the rapture of the church will come before the Anti-Christ will be revealed.
4. Paul also taught them the subject of the Rapture would be comforting to them, the idea of the Church going through the Trib is far from comforting knowing you and you children/loved ones will be decapitated for Jesus.
5. If the Rapture happens during the Trib then God is mixing different Dispensations together, something He doesn't need to do or has done with the first 6.
6. The early Church was waiting to be Raptured, this doctrine, this hope, Paul teaches, keeps us pure and undefiled in our walk with the Lord.
7. Jesus taught that if you say the Rapture won't happen today, if you don't believe it could happen at any moment, then you will be mean and beat the other brothers and sisters in the Church.

Time for work,

Lord bless,

Gene