Politics,religeon And The Beast
- Thread starter calvin
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Positive Major,
Mat 24:28,29 & Luke 12:45
And while at work the Lord brought to my remembrance another one, which is the icing on the cake.
8. I also will keep you from the hour of temptation/testing/discipline which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth. Rev 3:10
Gene
Mat 24:28,29 & Luke 12:45
And while at work the Lord brought to my remembrance another one, which is the icing on the cake.
8. I also will keep you from the hour of temptation/testing/discipline which shall come upon all the world to try them that dwell upon the earth. Rev 3:10
Gene
Calvin, who are the servants of God sealed in chapter 7, ....144 000 Jewish evangelists, who do they evangelize, ... the Jews first and also those people who have never heard the Gospel, i.e. those in the cults and other religions.
We are told by the elder these people washed their own robes, whereas we have been washed by Christ, this "work" (we are saved by grace and not by works) was accomplished by their not renouncing their faith in Jesus before the AC and were decapitated, ...where did the elder say they were standing, in front of the throne, whereas we are sitting on the throne with Chris, ...what is their service for all of eternity, to serve the Lord, whereas we are His bride and will be by His side (the explanation for the spear thrust into His side on the cross) for all eternity.
Blessings
Gene
We are told by the elder these people washed their own robes, whereas we have been washed by Christ, this "work" (we are saved by grace and not by works) was accomplished by their not renouncing their faith in Jesus before the AC and were decapitated, ...where did the elder say they were standing, in front of the throne, whereas we are sitting on the throne with Chris, ...what is their service for all of eternity, to serve the Lord, whereas we are His bride and will be by His side (the explanation for the spear thrust into His side on the cross) for all eternity.
Blessings
Gene
Major, something that could be of interest in the letters to the Churches are the closing statements:
Rev 2:7.
Rev 2:11.
Rev 2:17.
Rev 2:29.
Rev 3:6.
Rev 3:13.
Rev 3:22.
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches'; is the common thought here.
The point I wish to set before you is that in each of the seven cases, the word used for 'Churches' is indeed the plural form of Church. This is highly suggestive of the fact that though each letter is addressed to a definite and specific Church, each message is indeed meant for all Churches. Therefore IMNSHO the letters should never be assigned to so called 'Church ages'. What are your thoughts on this?
Another interesting thing, well a parallel if you will, is that in Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. Kjv
Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: KjvI can see in the language and lessons of Revelation a consistency with the language used by Jesus in His earthly ministry.....no surprise, as Revelation is about Jesus after all is said and done.
What are your thoughts on this Major?
Rev 2:7.
Rev 2:11.
Rev 2:17.
Rev 2:29.
Rev 3:6.
Rev 3:13.
Rev 3:22.
'He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the Churches'; is the common thought here.
The point I wish to set before you is that in each of the seven cases, the word used for 'Churches' is indeed the plural form of Church. This is highly suggestive of the fact that though each letter is addressed to a definite and specific Church, each message is indeed meant for all Churches. Therefore IMNSHO the letters should never be assigned to so called 'Church ages'. What are your thoughts on this?
Another interesting thing, well a parallel if you will, is that in Rev 3:5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels.
Mat 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. Kjv
Luke 12:8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God: KjvI can see in the language and lessons of Revelation a consistency with the language used by Jesus in His earthly ministry.....no surprise, as Revelation is about Jesus after all is said and done.
What are your thoughts on this Major?
Well, I guess Armageddon is in there somewhere (ch 14).
Thanks for your explanation, I knew from the past that you held this view, however if it was ever explained, I guess I have forgotten.
To be honest Gene, I think you need to be careful with this.
Where does the Bible tell us that these 144,000 are 'Jewish Evangelists'? All the Bible tells us is that they are the 'servants of our God'. Gene it's not me "saying" this, it's what God has said. Just about any commentary will say that the 144,000 are Jewish evangelists (except the JWs) I see the 144,000 representing the perfect number of saved persons, sealed to protect them from the work of the four angels that appear in verse 1.
Those who are said to come out of the great tribulation are also said to be servants of God, v14.
Numbers in scripture have some significance. Twelve being perfect government, 12 sons of Israel, twelve months in a year, twelve tribes, 12 disciples etc. Also, the New Jerusalem is said to be 12000 x 12000 x 12000 stadia that would be 1,728 billion cubic furlongs,/stadia or about 10,941,048,000,000,000,000 cubic meters. That is going to be able to house more that just a few people I'd say.
It may well be that because the numbers cited are exact, 12,000 not 11,059 or 12121 etc, that these 144ooo represent not an exact numeric value, but absolute completion.
You say in part, "We are told by the elder these people washed their own robes, whereas we have been washed by Christ,"
Gene we are washed in/by the Blood of Christ. These people are no different to any others who have endured to the end...whatever that end might be.
???????? Calvin, please don't take this the wrong way, it's an honest question, but have you read chapter 7 verses 4-8? Jesus said the 144000 were Jewish and then He named the tribes that each group of 12000 came from, Judah, Reuben, Gad etc., how can there be any question as to who the 144000 are?
I'll go along with what you say about the number 12 (Numbers in Scripture by Bulinger is an excellent read), but I/we/the Church won't need to be protected from what the angels will do to the earth because we are already in Heaven, Chapt 4, the Church will not go through the Trib for the reasons I quoted from Scripture in #149 and if that isn't enough Jesus's own promise in Rev 3:10.
Who "washed" you/me/Major, was it of our own doing, our own works? Eph 2:8-9 tells me/us that our salvation was a free gift given to us by God and verse 9 specifically states that we didn't do any works to receive it, however Rev 7:14 specifically says "they" washed their robes, that's a work, now, everyone that will be in Heaven are there because they have been cleansed by the Blood of the Lamb, there's no other way, but the Bible teaches those that are saved have different ways of showing there "faith" in the work of Jesus on the cross, Abraham believed God and it was counted to him for righteousness, but he had to be circumcised, Moses believed God, had to be circumcised and also had ordinances to keep, we the church "receive the Son", and are baptized, those in the Trib will believe, but will be martyred so show their faith.
There are differences names given to the groups of saved in Heaven too, Israel is called the Wife of God, the Church is called the Bride of Christ, theses people from the Trib aren't in either one of these two groups, they weren't saved under the Old Covenant, so we can't call them the Wife of God, neither were they saved during the Church Age, so we can't call them the Bride of Christ, so we see they are a different group of saints and we are told they will be in "front" of the throne, a different place than where we, the Bride of Christ will be.
Blessings,
Gene
I agree with you calvin on the Jewish "Evangelists". They are a remnant for sure from Israel, but there is no clear explination on them being "Evangelists".
However, allow me to give you something to ponder. Passages from Malachis 3:16, Ezekiel 20:33-38; Zechariah 13:8-9; Revelation 7:1-8 and actually many, many more indicate that when the Lord returns, there will be a believing remnant in Israel waiting on His return.
Then with those passsages, there are others such as Matthew 22:1-13, and Luke 14:16-24 that show that there will be a great number of Gentile believers who will be waiting on Christ's return.
So then...........it is necessary for there to be a believing remnant over whom Christ can reign and whom the covenants can be fulfilled. Correct??????
Now then, this group will go into the Millennium in their "natural bodies", saved, but not having experienced death and resurrection. IF the church were on the earth until the time of the 2nd coming, these saved people would have been saved to a position in the church, would have been raptured at that time and thereby there would not be one saved person left on the earth.
Who then would be waiting to meet Christ on His return??????
With whom then would Christ fulfill the covenants made with Israel?????
These considerations IMHO, make necessary the pretribulation rapture of the church so that God may call out and preserve a remnant during the Tribulation in and through whom the promises may be fulfilled.
Now.......to be saved, we know from Romans 10:17 that "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God".
IF .......IF what I am saying is correct, then how would the multitude saved during the Tribulation come to be saved.........
If not through the evangelizing work of the 144,000?????
I also believe however that the 144.000 is a real, literal number. It could of couse be a symbolic number, but what would be the point. I think the Lord is real good with math and it is a simple matter of multiplication from some giving out the gospel.
Major, what else could they be? They are "sealed" on their foreheads with the seal of the living God, , the dry bones prophesy tells us Israel is alive physically today, but not spiritually, the majority of the Jews in Israel today don't follow God, so with Angels flying through the sky announcing the Gospel, two Old Testament prophets prophesying in the streets of Jerusalem (don't you know modern day Jerusalem will blow their minds) and these 144000 Jewish men with a noticeable, evident seal on their forehead, what else could they talk about? Can't you just imagine the questions they will be asked, their seal will be different from the AC seal, ..."duh, I don't know, I was grabbed by shiny guy and he branded me," I don't think so, all through Scripture when Angels confronted people the people knew something supernatural was going down, just put yourself in their place, how would you react, ...just think about.
And, tell me, we take the 70 weeks prophesy in Daniel literally, we take the days recorded of the Flood literally, we take the number of years of Jesus's ministry literally, we take the three days and three night literally, so tell me (I'm asking anybody), by what Divine authority do we have to pick and chose which numbers in Scripture are literal or figurative, I've asked this question many times and have yet to have a Scriptural answer, ...thank you for bringing it up.
And...., you've answered the $64000 question, ...who would be left here on earth at the end.
Blessings,
Gene
My dear brother, blessings to you today!
Please notice that I did not say that I didn't believe that the 144,000 Jewish men were NOT evangelists.
I said.............
They are a remnant for sure from Israel, but there is no clear explination on them being "Evangelists".
I believe in my heart that they are in fact evangelists. The results of their actions imply that they are getting out the Word of God and lots of people are getting saved. That will infureate the A/C. Why else would the A/C seek to kill them??????
If surviving was their mission, they could just dig a hole and stock up food and water and hide out. But is is clear to me that they antaginize the A/C and he wants to shut them up.
BUT, the fact is that there is not a clear explination of them being Evangelists. It would come from the teaching of "Implied Truth". In other words there is pleanty of teaching and explinations to allow us to accept that they are Evengelists without actually saying as such.
And the top of the morning to you my brother, may the Lord richly bless your socks off today!!!
Okay, so even if we don't say they are "evangelists"
Scripture teaches they can't be a part of the Church.
That's interesting, we know and teach that the New Testament doctrines are played out in the lives of the Old Testament saints, a picture for us so to speak, and while it might be an "Implied Truth" the Holy Spirit uses them to teach us and we learn and grow from them, why shouldn't/can't He use the same method in the New Testament, why can't we say with certainty? I mean, once we have been taught BY the Holy Spirit (and not man) a Truth that Truth doesn't change later on down the line, He can add to it, embellish it, open up new understanding about that Truth, add new dimensions to it, but it always remains THE Truth, no?
What we have been taught BY revelation from the Holy Spirit, it's ours, we OWN it, no one can take it from us, for example, the foundational Truth, Jesus is God, we own that, people can come, knock on our doors, pedal up to us on their bikes, protest against God, say He is even dead or doesn't exist or it's just an old Jewish fable, but that doesn't change the Truth and they can't take it from us or change our minds, if I were given the choice and I'm certain you would do the same thing to, to reject the Truth that Jesus is God or die, I would have to chose death, that's what our brother and sisters who have been martyred have done, the Truth is what gave them the strength to stand for Jesus, so then, what Truth, that we have been taught by revelation from the Holy Spirit, be it ever so trivial, could we, in the same circumstance, reject? Be it ever so trivial, to reject it would be to reject our beloved Jesus because He IS the Word, even the if, ands and tos, ...how could I do that, if I owned it that would make me a liar, how could I reject the One who loves me to the point of dying for me?
This isn't a rant, just what's in my heart about THE Truth and it's importance in our lives and determines our walk with the Lord,
Later,
Gene
Okay, so even if we don't say they are "evangelists"
Scripture teaches they can't be a part of the Church.That's interesting, we know and teach that the New Testament doctrines are played out in the lives of the Old Testament saints, a picture for us so to speak, and while it might be an "Implied Truth" the Holy Spirit uses them to teach us and we learn and grow from them, why shouldn't/can't He use the same method in the New Testament, why can't we say with certainty? I mean, once we have been taught BY the Holy Spirit (and not man) a Truth that Truth doesn't change later on down the line, He can add to it, embellish it, open up new understanding about that Truth, add new dimensions to it, but it always remains THE Truth, no?
What we have been taught BY revelation from the Holy Spirit, it's ours, we OWN it, no one can take it from us, for example, the foundational Truth, Jesus is God, we own that, people can come, knock on our doors, pedal up to us on their bikes, protest against God, say He is even dead or doesn't exist or it's just an old Jewish fable, but that doesn't change the Truth and they can't take it from us or change our minds, if I were given the choice and I'm certain you would do the same thing to, to reject the Truth that Jesus is God or die, I would have to chose death, that's what our brother and sisters who have been martyred have done, the Truth is what gave them the strength to stand for Jesus, so then, what Truth, that we have been taught by revelation from the Holy Spirit, be it ever so trivial, could we, in the same circumstance, reject? Be it ever so trivial, to reject it would be to reject our beloved Jesus because He IS the Word, even the if, ands and tos, ...how could I do that, if I owned it that would make me a liar, how could I reject the One who loves me to the point of dying for me?
This isn't a rant, just what's in my heart about THE Truth and it's importance in our lives and determines our walk with the Lord,
Later,
Gene
And the top of the morning to you my brother, may the Lord richly bless your socks off today!!!
Okay, so even if we don't say they are "evangelists"
That's interesting, we know and teach that the New Testament doctrines are played out in the lives of the Old Testament saints, a picture for us so to speak, and while it might be an "Implied Truth" the Holy Spirit uses them to teach us and we learn and grow from them, why shouldn't/can't He use the same method in the New Testament, why can't we say with certainty? I mean, once we have been taught BY the Holy Spirit (and not man) a Truth that Truth doesn't change later on down the line, He can add to it, embellish it, open up new understanding about that Truth, add new dimensions to it, but it always remains THE Truth, no?
What we have been taught BY revelation from the Holy Spirit, it's ours, we OWN it, no one can take it from us, for example, the foundational Truth, Jesus is God, we own that, people can come, knock on our doors, pedal up to us on their bikes, protest against God, say He is even dead or doesn't exist or it's just an old Jewish fable, but that doesn't change the Truth and they can't take it from us or change our minds, if I were given the choice and I'm certain you would do the same thing to, to reject the Truth that Jesus is God or die, I would have to chose death, that's what our brother and sisters who have been martyred have done, the Truth is what gave them the strength to stand for Jesus, so then, what Truth, that we have been taught by revelation from the Holy Spirit, be it ever so trivial, could we, in the same circumstance, reject? Be it ever so trivial, to reject it would be to reject our beloved Jesus because He IS the Word, even the if, ands and tos, ...how could I do that, if I owned it that would make me a liar, how could I reject the One who loves me to the point of dying for me?
This isn't a rant, just what's in my heart about THE Truth and it's importance in our lives and determines our walk with the Lord,
Later,
Gene
"Okay, so even if we don't say they are "evangelists"
Scripture teaches they can't be a part of the Church"AGREED!
Yes Gene I have read those and other inspired writings. No, I don't take your posts as being in anyway offensive.
I do not wish to start a debate about so called 'replacement theology' with what follows as that is not what I am about.
I would like you to review again Romans Chapter 11. My understanding of Paul's discourse here rules out replacement thinking, but what I want to draw your attention to is what Paul says in Rom 11:25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
Now earlier Paul talks about us Gentile Christians having been grafted in.. I think we all know what Paul is drawing from here, What I believe/understand is that in the imagery of the Olive Tree where Christ Jesus is the root, the branches are Israel. There are twelve branches or tribes. Being grafted into that Olive tree Israel, we are grafted into any one of the twelve branches. For example, you might now be part of the branch of Dan, I might be part of the branch of Manasseh Major might be grafted into the branch of Benjamin etc. So the 144k might be national Jews, but they might not. They are indisputably of the 'Olive tree' though. Now, I wish to draw your attention again to Rom 11:25. There is a mystery here which Paul wants to shed some light on. Look at the last part.....the disclosure; until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
I am understanding two main things here. Firstly there is the suggestion of completeness as I have eluded to earlier.
Secondly, the Gentile intake is completed before the Jews wake up to themselves. Either Paul is right, or Paul is wrong here. Which?
According to Paul's teaching the Jews will again become a part of the 'Olive tree' after the Gentiles have been saved... all that will be that is to say.
Unless the 144k minister only to Jews and unless at that time there are more Jews than can be numbered, but....
Rev 7:9 After this I looked, and behold, a great multitude that no one could number, from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Rev 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!"
After the sealing of the 144K servants, not before...John is shown this large crowd that is made up of probably Jews and Gentiles, certainly Gentiles.
Rev ch 14 introduces some problems in understanding though as I said earlier in this thread.
The natural way to understand Rev 14:13 would be that it referred to time after verses 1-5. Perhaps it should be understood as meaning 'from now on' as in from the time of the giving of this revelation....and that would be true enough.
As for your post #149, I confess I have not had time to marry your statements with the actual Bible verses for proper study.
It appears that there is tribulation and there is tribulation.
Mat 24:21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be.
Matt 24:22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
It is difficult to see how this tribulation could affect the elect if they were already safe and sound in heaven.
What's replacement theology, ...remember, I've been isolated for 22 years.
Gene
Gene
Glomung
Account Closed
Replacement theology is the belief that the "Christian Church" has replaced Israel as far as the promises made to Israel in the Old Testament are concerned.
I.e. God made many promises to Israel, Israel did not live up to the bargain, the Church has inherited the promises as opposed to Israel in particular.
I.e. God made many promises to Israel, Israel did not live up to the bargain, the Church has inherited the promises as opposed to Israel in particular.
Thanks for a good laugh Glomung, that's ridiculous, how can anyone "trust" a god that can't do what he has said he will do, poor people, I'll bet these same people don't have any assurance of their salvation either!
I live in probably one of the most promiscuous, sexually oriented societies in the modern world and we are ministering to Christian teenagers and young adults and I know, from their love for the Lord, they are virgins, so we come back to the same fact, ...my God, the True and Living God whom I serve, can keep 144,000 Jewish men virgins to fulfill His plans, ...I mean, just think about it, all their records were destroyed in 70 AD, the Jews of today don't know what tribe the come from, but God does, ...what an awesome God. PTL
And friend, be careful with assuming, it comes from forming opinions and the word "opinion" in the New Testament is the cause of heresy, Strong's #139 which Paul used to describe division and sects in the Church 1 Cor 11:18-19, ...but you probably already know that.
Blessing,
Gene
I live in probably one of the most promiscuous, sexually oriented societies in the modern world and we are ministering to Christian teenagers and young adults and I know, from their love for the Lord, they are virgins, so we come back to the same fact, ...my God, the True and Living God whom I serve, can keep 144,000 Jewish men virgins to fulfill His plans, ...I mean, just think about it, all their records were destroyed in 70 AD, the Jews of today don't know what tribe the come from, but God does, ...what an awesome God. PTL
And friend, be careful with assuming, it comes from forming opinions and the word "opinion" in the New Testament is the cause of heresy, Strong's #139 which Paul used to describe division and sects in the Church 1 Cor 11:18-19, ...but you probably already know that.
Blessing,
Gene
Glomung
Account Closed
JustPassing, your smarmy self-righteous attitude is noted, but not approved of. Perhaps a touch of humility might help?
The question was "what is replacement theology".
from CARM
Replacement theology is the teaching that the Christian church has replaced national Israel regarding the plan, purpose, and promises of God.
Therefore, many of the promises that God made to Israel must be spiritualized. For example, when it speaks of Israel being restored to the land, this really means that the Christian church will be blessed. Also, covenants made with Israel are fulfilled in the Christian church so, for example,
The question was "what is replacement theology".
from CARM
Replacement theology is the teaching that the Christian church has replaced national Israel regarding the plan, purpose, and promises of God.
Therefore, many of the promises that God made to Israel must be spiritualized. For example, when it speaks of Israel being restored to the land, this really means that the Christian church will be blessed. Also, covenants made with Israel are fulfilled in the Christian church so, for example,
- The Jewish people are no longer God's chosen people. Instead, the Christian church now makes up God's chosen people.
- In the New Testament after Pentecost, the term "Israel" refers to the church.
- The Mosaic covenant (Exodus 20) is replaced by the new covenant (Luke 22:20).
- Actual circumcision is replaced by a circumcision of the heart (Rom. 2:29).
Question.................has the Church lived up to the bargain?
My understanding of the purity of the 144k is that any sinner saved by Grace has had his/her sins washed away. That would include lies, and sexual sins, theft etc etc. So there would be nothing intrinsically special or unique about these servants other than their cleansing.
All must be washed clean of all sin in order to be with the Lord.
This made me laugh so I'm going to choose to respond with the typical pat answer "The Church has, it is the churches that haven't".