Politics,religeon And The Beast

[JustPassingThru]

Major, I'm confused, you say I'm correct and then say dispensationism has been rejected, by who/whom, what happened, did we erase the word from Paul's writing, who/whom has the authority to do that?

I listed the starting points, here's the ending points:

1. Adam and Eve ejected from the Garden, 2 Cherubim guarding the way to the Tree of Life.
2. Destruction of all mankind except for 8 persons by the Flood.
3. Confusion of languages at the Tower of Babel.
4. Ten Plagues and the destruction of Egypt
5. Cursing of the Fig Tree, symbolic of coming to God for salvation through ordinances.
6. Rapture of the Church.
7. Battle of Armageddon
8. Destruction of Satan and the Great White Throne Judgements.

Doesn't that meet your criteria for a dispensation/economy or amount of Time being discernible?

And in your list of Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgements, just what part of those 7 years doesn't fit the term of meg-as' thlip'-sis (great tribulation) used by Jesus in Rev 2:22 meaning affliction, anguish, burdened, persecution or trouble?

Right on Cal, but I don't mind Major jumping in, just have patience with me, I too am old and feeble.

So Cal, I'm curious to know what changed your mind (nosy aren't I, that too comes with old age)?

Gene

 

[calvin]

Brother, it’s not how I or we “see” it, …wouldn’t you agree it’s the intention of Jesus when He wrote it and how the Holy Spirit teaches that is the only true interpretation, 2 Pe 1:20, there is a lot of confusion in the church today because believers don’t “see” it this way.

Scripture teaches we are in the 6th dispensation since Adam, the dispensation of grace, this dispensation will end with the rapture of the church, the next dispensation is the 7 years left of the 490 year prophecy of God given to Daniel , chpt 9:24, like our brothers before us we want to know the future, but that is impossible unless God reveals it to us by His Holy Spirit, which is what He has done with the book of Revelation.

You probably already know this, but for any following this thread that are confused about dispensations; a dispensation is like an act in a play, the theme of the play is man needs salvation, but in his pride says I can save myself. God has written the play with all the possibilities that man can come up with, act 1 is if my environment was better I could do better, I wouldn’t sin, Adam was a perfect man in a perfect environment and he blew it,

act 1, the dispensation of INNOCENCE,

act 2, I’ll let my CONSCIENCE be my guide, Cain kills Abel and the final scene is the earth filled with violence and sexual perversion and God has to cleanse the world with a flood,

act 3, Noah, I give you GOVERNMENT, the foundational principle is capital punishment, but Noah couldn’t govern himself,

act 4, here’s a PROMISE to you Abraham, just don’t go to Egypt, and we are suffering today from the Father of Faith’s marriage to Hagar,

act 5, Moses, I’ll give man LAW, but man broke God’s Law the day it was given to them,

act 6, Jesus Christ came full of GRACE and Truth, but man says I don’t believe its that easy, I’ve got to help God and besides, unless I can put my hands in the holes of His hands I won’t believe, I want to see God,

act 7, the TRIBULATION, ok man, you want to see God, Grace is over, finished, God manifests Himself through cataclysmic catastrophes that will ultimately destroy earth as we know it today, man hides in caves and cries out to the rocks to hide them from the Wrath of the Lamb, man knows it the Hand of God, but in his pride still thinks he doesn’t need salvation,

act 8, the MILLENNIUM, Jesus returns to earth to rule as King, Satan is bound for 1000 years, the destroyed earth is recreated, everything is free, the curse is removed, God is living with man, but man still doesn’t believe He needs salvation, Satan is loosed and multitudes join with him to fight against God.

Every possibility man could come up with has been played out, the drama is over, but, as the Scripture teaches, in every act there are a few who believe and accept His salvation, …many are called, but few are chosen.

If we use the Bible as just a theological resource it will be confusing, but if we see it as a drama, the record of man’s time here on earth and adjust our theology to correspond with the different acts/dispensations then we can rightly divide the Word and “see”(Jn 3:3) what God is trying to reveal to us in His Word.

May I ask, and I mean no disrespect, but from how you have written your question, it seems you are placing the opening of the 6th seal at the beginning of the Tribulation before the opening of the 1st seal, …am I understanding you correctly?

Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to answer your question, I read chapter 6 beginning with the opening of the 1st seal and the Holy Spirit has taught me, by comparing Scripture to Scripture and the “types” He uses, it is the Anti-Christ revealed riding a white horse with his pseudo righteousness, because his weapon is a bow, not a sword and his crown is a stephanos not a diadem.

And may I also ask, why did you change your view?

Gene

That is a very refreshing post Gene, thankyou.

May I ask, and I mean no disrespect, but from how you have written your question, it seems you are placing the opening of the 6th seal at the beginning of the Tribulation before the opening of the 1st seal, …am I understanding you correctly?

OK, I posted "I used to hold a similar view. How do you see Chapter 6 and the opening of the sixth seal coming at the beginning of the seven year tribulation period ?" (red added as a word I inadvertently missed typing.
No, I'm certainly not placing the opening of the sixth seal before the first seal.
I agree that the rider of the first horse is probably representative of counterfeit Christs, that is peace makers/saviors. I'll explain my thinking here a bit later.
The scroll that John sees is described as having seven seals, but also having writing on both sides (presumably) of the parchment/papyrus. see Rev 5:1.
If this picture of the scroll that I have is correct, then there is a lot more written within the space between each seal of the scroll than just a horse and rider going forth and so on. It seems the scroll is packed with information front and back. I believe that it is reasonable to consider that there is a sort of script detailing the activities that will accompany the time of the riders. It does not seem reasonable to me that the first horseman must complete his mission before the second horseman starts and so on through the four horseman like some sort of sequential unfolding of Earth history. Our own experience shows us that all at the same time, there is no political / military peace, while at the same time there are pandemics, and at the same time there are famines and there is civil unrest, there is death and what follows; hell.
I believe that written within that scroll is the history of mankind...certainly from that point in time onward.
Now, not as an interlude, but simply a change in narrative perspective comes the opening of the fifth seal. We are shown that under the alter in heaven, are to be seen the souls of those who were killed because of their faith Rev 6:9.. This is good to see especially after we are shown death being closely followed by hades/hell.
Now with the loosing of the sixth seal we see such cataclysmic mayhem that not only are the mountains leveled, but I suggest that not even a bark hut would be left standing. There would be major land and sea displacement and Millions of tons of snow and ice from the antarctic continent causing massive tsunami. If all that is not enough to say the end of the world has come during the time of the sixth seal, consider:
The Sky being rolled up like a scroll, revealing a heavenly throne and the one seated on it. I see no reason to think that this throne is not the "Great White Throne" Men can apparently see directly into the 'Throne Room' and what they see is not what they want to see.....Game, Set and Match.

Contained within the writings of the scroll are the details which are now revealed from Ch 7 onward. Because seriously, there is not much that could happen after seal # 6 is executed, so comprehensive is the destruction we have just seen.

So Gene, it is because of the completeness of the destruction loosed by the sixth seal that I have revised my understanding.
I know that there are apparent problems, Seal seven should signal completion, but there is Ch7 in between so.......
A work in progress .

 

[calvin]

Oh my. Please forgive me calvin. My age is showing I am afraid.

Listen, I think we are getting more work done on your thread here than the "Revelation Think Tank".

So why not lets expand this and see what we can do ????

That sounds like a very sound idea Major

 

[JustPassingThru]

Calvin, we need to have some sort of test to authenticate if what we believe is the Truth, as intended by the Author, don't you agree?

Here is my reasoning for that, since were are expounding Scripture in a public forum then we need to be certain what we are saying is the correct interpretation as intended by the Author, because He said through James that those assuming to teach will be judged more severely (not salvation, but rather our recompense and or time on earth), James 3:1, because Jesus taught that if one should offend one (cause them to stumble, lead them away from the Truth) that is new or untaught in their faith, it would be better if he were drowned in the sea. Luke 17:2 Now, I don't want either one of those acts of correction or discipline to fall on me or any one else.

Here is what I have been using for many years now and it has never failed me yet: if there is just one verse or principle in Scripture that contradicts what I believe to be the correct interpretation then my interpretation is wrong, would you agree that would be an accurate way to judge interpretation?

We know Jesus was a Jew and many of His parables were taken from Jewish customs, such is the case for the scroll, the scroll is the title deed to the earth that Adam forfeited to Satan, Jesus didn't dispute Satan's ownership when he tempted Him, so what we have in chapter 5 is the time for redeeming the title of the earth, the writing inside was the information of the property such as we have on the deeds we possess, the writing on the outside was the terms necessary for redemption (according to Jewish custom), John wept because no man living or dead could redeem it, however, there was a Man, Jesus the second Adam that had prevailed against all temptations (and may I suggest He suffered more than the three temptations recorded, but rather living a perfect life, He was faultless in the subjects of the first 7 dispensations) and the seven seals could possible be the 7 failures of man from each dispensation. Whatever..., John wept, if what you are proposing is true then that makes John a monster, weeping that the scroll could not be opened and unleash such horrific destruction on mankind as you have described, that doesn't correspond with the changing of the character of the Son of Thunder who was predestined throughout his lifetime to be conformed into the image of the Lord Jesus, later known as the John the Beloved at the time of his writing the Apocalypse.

As for the timeline of the Tribulation I don't believe we can pinpoint with accuracy any point in time other than what is given to us, the mid-point, 3 1/2 year mark and the end, any thing more than that would just be our opinions and I'm sure you know the word for opinion in the Greek is heresy, and as I pointed out above, I don't want to be found guilty of that.

We live in the now, today, that is why we clearly understand the first three chapters of the Revelation, we are living them, but the future is just a guess, as we were talking about burning the weapons for seven years, we don't know when that invasion will happen because it's future, will it follow immediately the Rapture or will there be a transition between the Rapture and the beginning of the 7 Weeks, we don't know, all we can do is speculate and any thing we claim to be Truth at this point in time is heresy.

I can say that what John has written for us in chapters 6-19 only takes about 15 minutes to read, but covers a time frame of 7 years, so it makes sense there are probably things which overlap, there could of even been fast forwards and rewinds for all we know, but that is just speculation, we won't know until we are there in Heaven at the 7 year Marriage Supper of the Lamb, watching from the bleachers, or better yet on humungous big screen TVs, ...now, that's a subject that is fascination to study and meditate on.

Since you have answered my question as to why, may I be so bold to ask another question (a character trait I inherited from Father Abraham when I was regenerated), why would you want to change what you believed?

Gene

 

[Major]

Major, I'm confused, you say I'm correct and then say dispensationism has been rejected, by who/whom, what happened, did we erase the word from Paul's writing, who/whom has the authority to do that?

I listed the starting points, here's the ending points:

1. Adam and Eve ejected from the Garden, 2 Cherubim guarding the way to the Tree of Life.
2. Destruction of all mankind except for 8 persons by the Flood.
3. Confusion of languages at the Tower of Babel.
4. Ten Plagues and the destruction of Egypt
5. Cursing of the Fig Tree, symbolic of coming to God for salvation through ordinances.
6. Rapture of the Church.
7. Battle of Armageddon
8. Destruction of Satan and the Great White Throne Judgements.

Doesn't that meet your criteria for a dispensation/economy or amount of Time being discernible?

And in your list of Seal, Trumpet and Bowl Judgements, just what part of those 7 years doesn't fit the term of meg-as' thlip'-sis (great tribulation) used by Jesus in Rev 2:22 meaning affliction, anguish, burdened, persecution or trouble?

Right on Cal, but I don't mind Major jumping in, just have patience with me, I too am old and feeble.

So Cal, I'm curious to know what changed your mind (nosy aren't I, that too comes with old age)?

Gene

Gene.......you are looking for something that is not there my friend. Look again at my post. I AGREE with you.
I have studied Dispensationalism for many years and as I said, it is to me the best way to rightly divide the Scriptures.
What I said was.......many people have rejected it. IMO they have rejected it because they do not understand iit.

So.......moving on!

As to your question of a "test" .

NO!

The test is always the guidence of the Holy Spirit as He moves upon the exposition of the Word of God.

 

[Major]

That is a very refreshing post Gene, thankyou.


OK, I posted "I used to hold a similar view. How do you see Chapter 6 and the opening of the sixth seal coming at the beginning of the seven year tribulation period ?" (red added as a word I inadvertently missed typing.
No, I'm certainly not placing the opening of the sixth seal before the first seal.
I agree that the rider of the first horse is probably representative of counterfeit Christs, that is peace makers/saviors. I'll explain my thinking here a bit later.
The scroll that John sees is described as having seven seals, but also having writing on both sides (presumably) of the parchment/papyrus. see Rev 5:1.
If this picture of the scroll that I have is correct, then there is a lot more written within the space between each seal of the scroll than just a horse and rider going forth and so on. It seems the scroll is packed with information front and back. I believe that it is reasonable to consider that there is a sort of script detailing the activities that will accompany the time of the riders. It does not seem reasonable to me that the first horseman must complete his mission before the second horseman starts and so on through the four horseman like some sort of sequential unfolding of Earth history. Our own experience shows us that all at the same time, there is no political / military peace, while at the same time there are pandemics, and at the same time there are famines and there is civil unrest, there is death and what follows; hell.
I believe that written within that scroll is the history of mankind...certainly from that point in time onward.
Now, not as an interlude, but simply a change in narrative perspective comes the opening of the fifth seal. We are shown that under the alter in heaven, are to be seen the souls of those who were killed because of their faith Rev 6:9.. This is good to see especially after we are shown death being closely followed by hades/hell.
Now with the loosing of the sixth seal we see such cataclysmic mayhem that not only are the mountains leveled, but I suggest that not even a bark hut would be left standing. There would be major land and sea displacement and Millions of tons of snow and ice from the antarctic continent causing massive tsunami. If all that is not enough to say the end of the world has come during the time of the sixth seal, consider:
The Sky being rolled up like a scroll, revealing a heavenly throne and the one seated on it. I see no reason to think that this throne is not the "Great White Throne" Men can apparently see directly into the 'Throne Room' and what they see is not what they want to see.....Game, Set and Match.

Contained within the writings of the scroll are the details which are now revealed from Ch 7 onward. Because seriously, there is not much that could happen after seal # 6 is executed, so comprehensive is the destruction we have just seen.

So Gene, it is because of the completeness of the destruction loosed by the sixth seal that I have revised my understanding.
I know that there are apparent problems, Seal seven should signal completion, but there is Ch7 in between so.......
A work in progress .

calvin........one of the things IMO we need to do is that instead of arguing and always trying to be right as some others do on this site, I think we should agree to "discuss" all these things and instead of insisting on our interpretation we listen and pray and try to learn from each other.

Now......I hear what you are saying but notice chapter #7:1 "And AFTER these things, I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth.............."

Does that indicate that there are more judgments to come.

 

[calvin]

I'm going to have to excuse myself for a few days guys. Gene, can I ask how you know that John knew the contents of the scroll before it was opened? To be upset at all the dire things contained therein not being revealed as you suggest, he must have..right?
Major, who is arguing....I'm enjoying the discussion, I see it as being polite and respectful. I owe Lifeasweknowit a lengthy PM which I feel I must attend to without delay. See you two in a few days I hope.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Major, believe me bro, I'm not "looking" for something, I didn't understand what you said and in love (even though it's hard, if not impossible to discern in this electronic media) asked for clarification, I misunderstood is all, I responded to what I did understand by stating what I believe, ...we together on that?

May I ask, "do not understand," or is it, our brothers and sisters haven't been taught by faithful pastors?

NO? NO?? NO??? (Falling out of chair) What about Acts 17:11 or 1 Thes 5:21 or on a even more serious subject 2 Cor 13:5?

So in light of that please explain to me how the Holy Spirit guides you in your walk with the Lord.

And I'm asking in love, not looking to argue, you have raised more questions, but if I ask them now it might become more confusing, remember bro, we are going to spend Eternity together so let's have patience with one another and love one another this side of heaven too.



Calvin, the simple and logical answer to your question is, ...he was Jewish, he knew the custom, daddy was rich and he no doubt had seen title deeds, if he didn't have one of his own, ...the title deed of earth was going to Satan by default, that is why he wept and that is the inference of what the Angel said to him as a reason to stop blubbering.

Wow, that must be a lengthy PM, see you when you come back,

Lord bless,

Gene

 

[Major]

I'm going to have to excuse myself for a few days guys. Gene, can I ask how you know that John knew the contents of the scroll before it was opened? To be upset at all the dire things contained therein not being revealed as you suggest, he must have..right?
Major, who is arguing....I'm enjoying the discussion, I see it as being polite and respectful. I owe Lifeasweknowit a lengthy PM which I feel I must attend to without delay. See you two in a few days I hope.

No one is argueing calvin and that is the way I like it! I love this kind of discussion and look forward to it with learned men who spirit can be felt through their postings.

 

[Major]

Major, believe me bro, I'm not "looking" for something, I didn't understand what you said and in love (even though it's hard, if not impossible to discern in this electronic media) asked for clarification, I misunderstood is all, I responded to what I did understand by stating what I believe, ...we together on that?

May I ask, "do not understand," or is it, our brothers and sisters haven't been taught by faithful pastors?

NO? NO?? NO??? (Falling out of chair) What about Acts 17:11 or 1 Thes 5:21 or on a even more serious subject 2 Cor 13:5?

So in light of that please explain to me how the Holy Spirit guides you in your walk with the Lord.

And I'm asking in love, not looking to argue, you have raised more questions, but if I ask them now it might become more confusing, remember bro, we are going to spend Eternity together so let's have patience with one another and love one another this side of heaven too.



Calvin, the simple and logical answer to your question is, ...he was Jewish, he knew the custom, daddy was rich and he no doubt had seen title deeds, if he didn't have one of his own, ...the title deed of earth was going to Satan by default, that is why he wept and that is the inference of what the Angel said to him as a reason to stop blubbering.

Wow, that must be a lengthy PM, see you when you come back,

Lord bless,

Gene

Absolutly Gene! We are together my brother.

Gene, when I read things that others write, immediatly I feel conflicted because it just does not sound right to me. IT is that feeling that leads me to open my Bible and study what is in question. At my age, my memory is not what it used to be so I make sure to do some home work to make sure that the feeling is valid and the answer is correct.

After reading your comments, I already feel as if I have known you for a long time as our spirits are speaking to each other. I have had that kind of relationship with calvin now for a long time. We just communicate without confrontation and if you have done any work on the innternet, you know that is not always the case.

So, shall we proceed here with our thoughts and allow the Holy Spirit to grow us one with another.

Do you guys have any thoughts as where to begin our journey????

Since we are discussing the beast/ anti-christ and the mark of the beast as is the title of calvins thread, maybe we should begin at the start........

Daniel 9:24
KJV
"Sevent weeks are determined upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression and to make an end of sins and to make reconciliation for iniquity and to bring in everlasting righteousness and to seal up the vision and the prophecy and to annoint the most Holy".

Daniel has seen that Israel has spent 70 years in captivity because for 70 sets of 7 years they neglected God's sabbatical year commanmnent in 2 Chron. 36:21. THat comes out to be 490 years/

The angel show Daniel that Israel will now go through another 70 sets of 7 years.
"Seventy weeks" is in Hebrew....Shevuim shevim and should not be confused with a seven day week.

Verse 24 tells us that this second set of 70 x 7 years would bring to a climax the history of Israel and Jerusalem and would usher in the reign of the Messiah.

The 490 years (70 x 7) would begin with the command to rebuild Jerusalem (Jeremiah 2:7-8). After 69 sevens (Dan. 9:26) , that is after 7 sevens plus "the 62 sevens" "shall Messiah be cut off". This can only refer to the crucifixion of Jesus in 30 AD. A "TIME OUT" takes place.

That "time out" period is the dispensation of Grace or as some call it the church age. It has been taking place since Jesus was crucified.

Dan. 9:27 then tells us of the FINAL 7 YEARS when the A/C shall make a peace covenant involving Israel and break it at the 3 1/2 year mark. The 7 year time drame is the Tribulation Period and is ended at Armageddon.

So...........if that is not a good starting place, let me know for I am flexable and excited to continue.

 

[JustPassingThru]

Absolutely Gene! We are together my brother.

Gene, when I read things that others write, immediately I feel conflicted because it just does not sound right to me. IT is that feeling that leads me to open my Bible and study what is in question. At my age, my memory is not what it used to be so I make sure to do some home work to make sure that the feeling is valid and the answer is correct.
So you are testing according to Acts 17:11

After reading your comments, I already feel as if I have known you for a long time as our spirits are speaking to each other. I have had that kind of relationship with calvin now for a long time. We just communicate without confrontation and if you have done any work on the internet, you know that is not always the case.

So, shall we proceed here with our thoughts and allow the Holy Spirit to grow us one with another.

Major, that is why I feel we need to test everything, I hear many talking about a great revival, but what I read in my Bible is a great apostasy, besides Jesus said the first thing to watch for in the end times is to not be deceived.

What you are saying about the conflict is the Holy Spirit in us telling us it's not true, there is only one Truth and when someone says something that isn't true the Holy Spirit's job is to warn us 1 Jn 2:27, that is the only way we being so diverse can fellowship together and when what we hear is the Truth He is speaking to us saying, "It's true, It's true."

I agree with you on the 70 weeks, with the minor exception of the end of the 69th week, it ended on Sunday the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey as King of Israel, there is an excellent book on the 70 weeks written by Sir Robert Anderson, I believe he was head of Scotland Yard, called The Coming Prince, it's a good read.

So, I'm kinda confused, what's there to discuss, God said it so that's the way it is.

Gene

 

[Major]

Major, that is why I feel we need to test everything, I hear many talking about a great revival, but what I read in my Bible is a great apostasy, besides Jesus said the first thing to watch for in the end times is to not be deceived.

What you are saying about the conflict is the Holy Spirit in us telling us it's not true, there is only one Truth and when someone says something that isn't true the Holy Spirit's job is to warn us 1 Jn 2:27, that is the only way we being so diverse can fellowship together and when what we hear is the Truth He is speaking to us saying, "It's true, It's true."

I agree with you on the 70 weeks, with the minor exception of the end of the 69th week, it ended on Sunday the day Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a donkey as King of Israel, there is an excellent book on the 70 weeks written by Sir Robert Anderson, I believe he was head of Scotland Yard, called The Coming Prince, it's a good read.

So, I'm kinda confused, what's there to discuss, God said it so that's the way it is.

Gene

I believe there will be agreat revival Gene, but not untill after the Rapture IMO.

I am not saying therr is a "conflict" with the Holy Spirit. I am saying that we are all at differant levels of understanding and the Holy Spirit helps to lead us through life to the truth that is for all of us.

Now, what Scripture can be used to say that the 2nd Coming will be on a Sunday.

 

[JustPassingThru]

I believe there will be agreat revival Gene, but not untill after the Rapture IMO.

I agree there will a be many saved during the Tribulation, but I was talking about a "great revival" during the Church Age, Scripture plainly teaches there will be a "great apostasy" at the end of this dispensation.

Those that apostatize during the Church Age are damned 2 Th 2"10, those that will be saved during the Tribulation are those that have never "claimed" to be saved and/or follow the true Jesus, personally I believe Scripture teaches it is a "wake up call " for the nation of Israel and also many that are in the cults today will come to salvation.

I am not saying therr is a "conflict" with the Holy Spirit. I am saying that we are all at differant levels of understanding and the Holy Spirit helps to lead us through life to the truth that is for all of us.

That's what I said bro, the "conflict is in us, the "levels of understanding" are different stages of spiritual growth, babies, children, teenagers and adults.

Now, what Scripture can be used to say that the 2nd Coming will be on a Sunday.

??????? None

Gene

 

[Major]

I agree there will a be many saved during the Tribulation, but I was talking about a "great revival" during the Church Age, Scripture plainly teaches there will be a "great apostasy" at the end of this dispensation.

Those that apostatize during the Church Age are damned 2 Th 2"10, those that will be saved during the Tribulation are those that have never "claimed" to be saved and/or follow the true Jesus, personally I believe Scripture teaches it is a "wake up call " for the nation of Israel and also many that are in the cults today will come to salvation.




That's what I said bro, the "conflict is in us, the "levels of understanding" are different stages of spiritual growth, babies, children, teenagers and adults.



??????? None

Gene

I agree with you my friend. IF one has heard the gospel and rejected it, they will not be able to be saved.

I would and have a problem when it comes to day or date setting.

 

[Lifeasweknowit]

I'm going to have to excuse myself for a few days guys. Gene, can I ask how you know that John knew the contents of the scroll before it was opened? To be upset at all the dire things contained therein not being revealed as you suggest, he must have..right?
Major, who is arguing....I'm enjoying the discussion, I see it as being polite and respectful. I owe Lifeasweknowit a lengthy PM which I feel I must attend to without delay. See you two in a few days I hope.

No worries, Calv! I am SO of your help, but I know it's lengthy so take your time

 

[calvin]

Right on Cal, but I don't mind Major jumping in, just have patience with me, I too am old and feeble.

So Cal, I'm curious to know what changed your mind (nosy aren't I, that too comes with old age)?

Gene

No I don't have a problem with Major popping in on it either. It was just that he seemed to take your comment on a question (he didn't ask) as being addressed to him.
Drat! now I'm confused too. Did I answer you or not? I'll have to go back and read these posts all over again

 

[calvin]

Since you have answered my question as to why, may I be so bold to ask another question (a character trait I inherited from Father Abraham when I was regenerated), why would you want to change what you believed?

Gene

Yes, you may.
I want to believe what is true. I have studied many interpretations, by many different but 'Godly' persons, but every understanding I have read (my own included) seems flawed in some way or other. (see the closing statement of mine in post# 111.)
So, when I read of the finality of the sixth seal events and similar in Isa 34:4 and accompanying texts, the sky being removed to reveal a heavenly throne on which is seated an entity that is less than pleased with those on Earth,..... game set and match.
So, until some thing more believable is presented, until I can be convinced that the events that accompany the loosing of seal #6 mean something other than what is depicted................

 

[calvin]

Now......I hear what you are saying but notice chapter #7:1 "And AFTER these things, I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth.............."

Does that indicate that there are more judgments to come.

It does if you read Revelation as a Chronologically ordered book....but is it? As I have already indicated, (post #111) there are problems...loose ends so to speak.
Now 'after these things', does that necessarily mean that 'these things' occurred before what follows ? that is to say, can we be certain that the four angels etc do not do their thing until the sixth seal has been read out? Could John have simply been shown further aspects of the unfolding of what is to come? By way of example, one could turn on their TV and watch the latest NCIS episode, then after that,change channels and get a 'blast from the past' with the 50th rerun of 'I love Lucy'.
Is it not a possibility that John is witness to a dramatic unfolding of things from differing vantage points both in position and time? I wish I knew the truth, but I am just trying to make sense out of this.

 

[Major]

It does if you read Revelation as a Chronologically ordered book....but is it? As I have already indicated, (post #111) there are problems...loose ends so to speak.
Now 'after these things', does that necessarily mean that 'these things' occurred before what follows ? that is to say, can we be certain that the four angels etc do not do their thing until the sixth seal has been read out? Could John have simply been shown further aspects of the unfolding of what is to come? By way of example, one could turn on their TV and watch the latest NCIS episode, then after that,change channels and get a 'blast from the past' with the 50th rerun of 'I love Lucy'.
Is it not a possibility that John is witness to a dramatic unfolding of things from differing vantage points both in position and time? I wish I knew the truth, but I am just trying to make sense out of this.

Yes it is very possible.

Would it also then be just as possible that the 3 sets of judgments are 3 different views of the same thing with all 3 ending at Armageddon?

Glad to see you are back!

 

[calvin]

Yes it is very possible.

Would it also then be just as possible that the 3 sets of judgments are 3 different views of the same thing with all 3 ending at Armageddon?

Glad to see you are back!

Not sure what you are counting as 3 sets. If you are counting the seals as judgments, I'm not convinced that is the right way to view them. I see them as similar to chapter markers.