Ok Major, now that the sleeping behemoth has awakened and the think tank is comatose, I'll see if I can see what you are looking at.
Politics,religeon And The Beast
- Thread starter calvin
- Start date
I only see one Gog and Magog. But then again, I don't wear bifocals
The reason behind my thinking is that in Eze 38, and 39 both, the destruction of Gog and all his confederates is foretold.
Eze 38:21,22 tels of his destruction which seems total. Eze 39:11 and other verses certainly speak of the total end of Gog and his murderous hoards. If Eze 38 and 39 are talking about the same gog, then he must be the same one destroyed in Rev 20. Something of interest though....it seems that Christ is not visibly evident in the millennial kingdom <<Bomb Shell>> He is not mentioned in either Eze 38,39 or the camp of the saints in Rev 20.
Yet the land of Israel is a restored land after a war and people dwell securely there.
Eze 38:16 You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.
Even this reads as though the Lord has no visible presence there.
For me, this explains how there can be a literal millennial kingdom that will ultimately be attacked by Gog & c0. It is hard to imagine them attacking the Majestic Lord as seen by John at Patmos. Christ in His full glory would tend to be a deterrent to all aggression. Even Satan could not hold a candle the glory of the Lord such that he could fool people into thinking they could war against Him.
The reason behind my thinking is that in Eze 38, and 39 both, the destruction of Gog and all his confederates is foretold.
Eze 38:21,22 tels of his destruction which seems total. Eze 39:11 and other verses certainly speak of the total end of Gog and his murderous hoards. If Eze 38 and 39 are talking about the same gog, then he must be the same one destroyed in Rev 20. Something of interest though....it seems that Christ is not visibly evident in the millennial kingdom <<Bomb Shell>> He is not mentioned in either Eze 38,39 or the camp of the saints in Rev 20.
Yet the land of Israel is a restored land after a war and people dwell securely there.
Eze 38:16 You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.
Even this reads as though the Lord has no visible presence there.
For me, this explains how there can be a literal millennial kingdom that will ultimately be attacked by Gog & c0. It is hard to imagine them attacking the Majestic Lord as seen by John at Patmos. Christ in His full glory would tend to be a deterrent to all aggression. Even Satan could not hold a candle the glory of the Lord such that he could fool people into thinking they could war against Him.
I only see one Gog and Magog. But then again, I don't wear bifocals
The reason behind my thinking is that in Eze 38, and 39 both, the destruction of Gog and all his confederates is foretold.
Eze 38:21,22 tels of his destruction which seems total. Eze 39:11 and other verses certainly speak of the total end of Gog and his murderous hoards. If Eze 38 and 39 are talking about the same gog, then he must be the same one destroyed in Rev 20. Something of interest though....it seems that Christ is not visibly evident in the millennial kingdom <<Bomb Shell>> He is not mentioned in either Eze 38,39 or the camp of the saints in Rev 20.
Yet the land of Israel is a restored land after a war and people dwell securely there.
Eze 38:16 You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.
Even this reads as though the Lord has no visible presence there.
For me, this explains how there can be a literal millennial kingdom that will ultimately be attacked by Gog & c0. It is hard to imagine them attacking the Majestic Lord as seen by John at Patmos. Christ in His full glory would tend to be a deterrent to all aggression. Even Satan could not hold a candle the glory of the Lord such that he could fool people into thinking they could war against Him.
That makes very good sense.
I don't see how the Ez 38-39 event could be the same as the Rev 20 when Scripture clearly names in 38-39 a small confederation of nations and 20 is composed of nations from the four corners of the world?
Sorry rusty, I didn't mean to hi-jack your thread, ...maybe we should respect the OP's request.
Gene
Sorry rusty, I didn't mean to hi-jack your thread, ...maybe we should respect the OP's request.
Gene
Gene, I'm the culprit what opened this here thread. But unlike some here I do not live with the mistaken notion that I own it. This is a community forum for Christians. Major saw fit to ask a question of me regarding Gog....I saw fit to answer.
If you have a legitimate point to make or opinion to express, then you should feel perfectly free and welcome to do so.
Most certainly, I welcome your input.
That goes for any thread I open and it ought to go for any thread anywhere on this forum regardless of who opens it. The only exception being one or two areas reserved for the 'lordly mod squad' to talk about themselves and us but not with us.
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The 'four corners of the Earth' mentioned in Revelation 20, really would mean from all the nations wouldn't it? The Earth is a more or less spherical thing that can not have corners.
In Ezekiel ch38,39, the same metaphor is missing, but I think the same idea is portrayed. A seven month burial project (ch39) implies that there will be more than just a few platoons involved. For Israel's foes to be described as a cloud covering the land (ch38) implies more than just a few platoons. A study of all the sundry nations mentioned ch 38 verses 5 and 6 covers a lot of territory and it is not all to Israel's literal north.
But there is more to consider IMHO., there is a finality expressed in Ez Ch 38,39 and Rev20. In all three accounts, the Lord acts decisively to put a final end to aggression from Israel's enemies. There is language in Eze that is similar to parts of Revelation.....Birds and beasts eating their fill and so on.....there will be only one climactic end of the world , Armageddon type battle won't there?
Me: preronally I read it as a tough time I don't even want to be around to see but maybe I'll have to. Maybe He will see me through (my own record of "coping" wouldn't even last now! - He seems to have a way of forcing and getting me through much I want to run away from). I can't help but feel the time is getting closer.
I've no clue on exactly the form, I just expect my "I can't even cope now" to feel trivial and pathetic if faced with this.
I've no clue on exactly the form, I just expect my "I can't even cope now" to feel trivial and pathetic if faced with this.
Gene, I'm the culprit what opened this here thread. But unlike some here I do not live with the mistaken notion that I own it. This is a community forum for Christians. Major saw fit to ask a question of me regarding Gog....I saw fit to answer.
If you have a legitimate point to make or opinion to express, then you should feel perfectly free and welcome to do so.
Most certainly, I welcome your input.
That goes for any thread I open and it ought to go for any thread anywhere on this forum regardless of who opens it. The only exception being one or two areas reserved for the 'lordly mod squad' to talk about themselves and us but not with us.
Your contempt for certain other members of this forum and for the staff is duly noted. Now please stop spewing poison.
Sorry about that Calvin, my bad, been reading so much here I got confused, forgive me?
Gene
Gene
Not a problem Gene, I just thought an explanation would help.
Calvin, As I read Rev 20, after the battle comes the Great White Throne Judgement, what happened to the 7 years of weapon burning spoken of in Ez 38-39?
Gene
Gene
Well, yes, I had seven months not seven years....my bad.
As to the time interval I have no idea. But to me any alternative has problems as well.
Where I made reference to the birds and beasts feeding on the dead, ( Eze 39:17,18,19 ) Compare that with
Rev 19:17,18,19,21. I was not thinking in terms of a strict chronology, nor do I tend to anyway.
Consider the catastrophic events that accompany the opening of the sixth seal back in Rev Ch 6. Rev 6:12-17. That seems to be the end of the world to use a common phrase, but that was back in Ch 6, so the question presents itself, how chronologically confined is prophesy? is Revelation?
What I think is that prophesy and apocalyptic literature tell of things from different perspectives without being confined to a timetable of events.
I do as well Gene......see 2 seperate Magog's.
One comes from the North parts and the second in Rev. 20 comes from the 4 corners of the world.
IMO the 1st ushers in the 7 year peace conenant and the 2nd puts an end to all rebellion after those who lived through the Tribulation are tempted in Rev. 20.
God is not a respecter of person therefor all men must be tested and with Satan bound that can not happen, hence he is loosened to tempt the ones who are born after Armageddon.
Wouldn't that correspond to the literal years of the Tribulation Period????
Time for work bro, but here's a nugget for you to assay 'til tonight, ...the key that unlocks Revelation is 1:19 where Jesus told cousin John to write what he has seen, Chapter 1, the ap-ok-al'-oop-sis, the unveiling, the revelation of Jesus in His glory, what is, Chapters 2&3, the Church age, and what is to come, Chapters 4&5, the Church in heaven, Chapters 6-19, the 7 year tribulation period, Chapter 20 the millennium and judgement, chapters 20&21 a new Heaven and Earth and we know the end of the story, ...we all live happily ever after!
You got it Major, the millennium is the 8th and final dispensation, we are currently in the 6th, the dispensation of grace. Eph 3:2
Later,
Gene
You got it Major, the millennium is the 8th and final dispensation, we are currently in the 6th, the dispensation of grace. Eph 3:2
Later,
Gene
I used to hold a similar view. How you see Chapter 6 and the opening of the sixth seal coming at the beginning of the seven year tribulation period ?
calvin............IMO the best hermeneutical principle is to take all elements of a passage literally "unless" that method comes in conflict with other literal passages of Scripture and the demands of reason.
Then it is helpful for all to understand that in the Apocalypse, symbols and signs are "normative" and not and "intrusion"
(cf 1:1).
I am not trying to teach you calvin as your imput is without question in Biblical matters. All I am doing is trying to enlighten any who might be interested in this coming event through which you have opened the door..
IMO it would be helpful to understand that chapters 4-5 were concerning heaven and chapter 6 moves to the earth. The method by which the truth of chapter 5 is carried out is then presented in chapter 6: Christ is entering in upon the purchased possession that He owns. The DAY OF THE LORD, the time of God's judgments on the earth before the visible reappearing of the Lord Jesus is the subject in this and all the rest following.
So then, IMHO the features under the 6th Seal speak of literal events which in their universal effects must bring social, emotional, spiritual and financial problems for all humanity.
At this point it is a good thing to understand that when the Tribulation Period is spoken of, it is about the SEVEN (7) years of Daniel 9:27. The "Great" Tribulation covers only the last 3 1/2 years of the time frame of 7 years.
I for one hold that the final part (3 1/2 years) of the Tribulation Period coincides with the events of Matthew 24:15. Thus the first six seals occur during the first half of Daniels 70th week. They are the beginning of sorrows we see in Matthew 24:8.
The first four seals are broken in connection with the four living creatures, but it is the Lamb who has the power and authority to break those seals. As He does so more of the contents of the scroll are allowed to be seen.
When they take place, parallel Scriptures are most helpful. Earthquakes, changes in the atmosphere, falling stars and mountains moving are striking and will be terrifying phenomenas of nature but then when we understand that Christ controles nature, it becomes normal and easy to see how they are literal.
Brother, it’s not how I or we “see” it, …wouldn’t you agree it’s the intention of Jesus when He wrote it and how the Holy Spirit teaches that is the only true interpretation, 2 Pe 1:20, there is a lot of confusion in the church today because believers don’t “see” it this way.
Scripture teaches we are in the 6th dispensation since Adam, the dispensation of grace, this dispensation will end with the rapture of the church, the next dispensation is the 7 years left of the 490 year prophecy of God given to Daniel , chpt 9:24, like our brothers before us we want to know the future, but that is impossible unless God reveals it to us by His Holy Spirit, which is what He has done with the book of Revelation.
You probably already know this, but for any following this thread that are confused about dispensations; a dispensation is like an act in a play, the theme of the play is man needs salvation, but in his pride says I can save myself. God has written the play with all the possibilities that man can come up with, act 1 is if my environment was better I could do better, I wouldn’t sin, Adam was a perfect man in a perfect environment and he blew it,
act 1, the dispensation of INNOCENCE,
act 2, I’ll let my CONSCIENCE be my guide, Cain kills Abel and the final scene is the earth filled with violence and sexual perversion and God has to cleanse the world with a flood,
act 3, Noah, I give you GOVERNMENT, the foundational principle is capital punishment, but Noah couldn’t govern himself,
act 4, here’s a PROMISE to you Abraham, just don’t go to Egypt, and we are suffering today from the Father of Faith’s marriage to Hagar,
act 5, Moses, I’ll give man LAW, but man broke God’s Law the day it was given to them,
act 6, Jesus Christ came full of GRACE and Truth, but man says I don’t believe its that easy, I’ve got to help God and besides, unless I can put my hands in the holes of His hands I won’t believe, I want to see God,
act 7, the TRIBULATION, ok man, you want to see God, Grace is over, finished, God manifests Himself through cataclysmic catastrophes that will ultimately destroy earth as we know it today, man hides in caves and cries out to the rocks to hide them from the Wrath of the Lamb, man knows it the Hand of God, but in his pride still thinks he doesn’t need salvation,
act 8, the MILLENNIUM, Jesus returns to earth to rule as King, Satan is bound for 1000 years, the destroyed earth is recreated, everything is free, the curse is removed, God is living with man, but man still doesn’t believe He needs salvation, Satan is loosed and multitudes join with him to fight against God.
Every possibility man could come up with has been played out, the drama is over, but, as the Scripture teaches, in every act there are a few who believe and accept His salvation, …many are called, but few are chosen.
If we use the Bible as just a theological resource it will be confusing, but if we see it as a drama, the record of man’s time here on earth and adjust our theology to correspond with the different acts/dispensations then we can rightly divide the Word and “see”(Jn 3:3) what God is trying to reveal to us in His Word.
May I ask, and I mean no disrespect, but from how you have written your question, it seems you are placing the opening of the 6th seal at the beginning of the Tribulation before the opening of the 1st seal, …am I understanding you correctly?
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to answer your question, I read chapter 6 beginning with the opening of the 1st seal and the Holy Spirit has taught me, by comparing Scripture to Scripture and the “types” He uses, it is the Anti-Christ revealed riding a white horse with his pseudo righteousness, because his weapon is a bow, not a sword and his crown is a stephanos not a diadem.
And may I also ask, why did you change your view?
Gene
Scripture teaches we are in the 6th dispensation since Adam, the dispensation of grace, this dispensation will end with the rapture of the church, the next dispensation is the 7 years left of the 490 year prophecy of God given to Daniel , chpt 9:24, like our brothers before us we want to know the future, but that is impossible unless God reveals it to us by His Holy Spirit, which is what He has done with the book of Revelation.
You probably already know this, but for any following this thread that are confused about dispensations; a dispensation is like an act in a play, the theme of the play is man needs salvation, but in his pride says I can save myself. God has written the play with all the possibilities that man can come up with, act 1 is if my environment was better I could do better, I wouldn’t sin, Adam was a perfect man in a perfect environment and he blew it,
act 1, the dispensation of INNOCENCE,
act 2, I’ll let my CONSCIENCE be my guide, Cain kills Abel and the final scene is the earth filled with violence and sexual perversion and God has to cleanse the world with a flood,
act 3, Noah, I give you GOVERNMENT, the foundational principle is capital punishment, but Noah couldn’t govern himself,
act 4, here’s a PROMISE to you Abraham, just don’t go to Egypt, and we are suffering today from the Father of Faith’s marriage to Hagar,
act 5, Moses, I’ll give man LAW, but man broke God’s Law the day it was given to them,
act 6, Jesus Christ came full of GRACE and Truth, but man says I don’t believe its that easy, I’ve got to help God and besides, unless I can put my hands in the holes of His hands I won’t believe, I want to see God,
act 7, the TRIBULATION, ok man, you want to see God, Grace is over, finished, God manifests Himself through cataclysmic catastrophes that will ultimately destroy earth as we know it today, man hides in caves and cries out to the rocks to hide them from the Wrath of the Lamb, man knows it the Hand of God, but in his pride still thinks he doesn’t need salvation,
act 8, the MILLENNIUM, Jesus returns to earth to rule as King, Satan is bound for 1000 years, the destroyed earth is recreated, everything is free, the curse is removed, God is living with man, but man still doesn’t believe He needs salvation, Satan is loosed and multitudes join with him to fight against God.
Every possibility man could come up with has been played out, the drama is over, but, as the Scripture teaches, in every act there are a few who believe and accept His salvation, …many are called, but few are chosen.
If we use the Bible as just a theological resource it will be confusing, but if we see it as a drama, the record of man’s time here on earth and adjust our theology to correspond with the different acts/dispensations then we can rightly divide the Word and “see”(Jn 3:3) what God is trying to reveal to us in His Word.
May I ask, and I mean no disrespect, but from how you have written your question, it seems you are placing the opening of the 6th seal at the beginning of the Tribulation before the opening of the 1st seal, …am I understanding you correctly?
Please correct me if I’m wrong, but to answer your question, I read chapter 6 beginning with the opening of the 1st seal and the Holy Spirit has taught me, by comparing Scripture to Scripture and the “types” He uses, it is the Anti-Christ revealed riding a white horse with his pseudo righteousness, because his weapon is a bow, not a sword and his crown is a stephanos not a diadem.
And may I also ask, why did you change your view?
Gene
Gene, you are correct. Dispensationalism is now widely rejected and that confuses me greatly.
A Dispensation is best understood as "TIME". A dispensation has a starting point and and ending point and both are disernable. I think it is the best way to understand the Word of God IMO.
I dont think I asked a question but if I posted it incorrectly, please forgive me. I do also see the rider of the white horse as the A/C and for the same reason you listed. I think the confusion maybe that I said the "Great Tribulation" is not the whole 7 years but the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 year peroid, but yes the ist Seal is in Rev. 6:1 and it is a "false peace" brought in by the A/C.
No confusion intended but my medication wore off, or is it time for the medication. Who knows??
My understnading of the judgments is that.................
1st Seal = A/C
2nd Seal = War
3rd Seal = Famine
4th Seal = Death of 1/4 earth
5th Seal = Martydom
6th Seal = Heavenly/earthly disturbances
7th Seal = The Trumpet Judgments
(The 7th Seal is and and then overlaps the 1st Trumpet judgment.)
1 st Trumpet = 1/3 of Earth smitten
2nd Trumpet = 1/3 of Seaa smitten
3rd Trumpet = 1/3 of fresh water smitten
4th Trumpet = 1/3 of Sun, moon & stars smitten
5th Trumpet = Locusts torment men for 5 months
6th Trumpet = 200,000,000 man army slays 1/3 of men
7th Trumpet = The Bowl Judgmnents
(The 7th Trumpet is and then overlaps the 1st Bowl judgment)
1st Bowl = Sores on worshipper of beast
2nd Bowl = Entire Sea smitten
3rd Bowl = All fresh water smitten
4th Bowl = Sun scorches men
5th Bowl = Darkness on beast kingdom
6th Bowl = Euphrates River drys up makeing the way clear for the kings of the East
7th Bowl = Great earthquake/Hail, Babylon destroyed
ARMAGEDDON.
A Dispensation is best understood as "TIME". A dispensation has a starting point and and ending point and both are disernable. I think it is the best way to understand the Word of God IMO.
I dont think I asked a question but if I posted it incorrectly, please forgive me. I do also see the rider of the white horse as the A/C and for the same reason you listed. I think the confusion maybe that I said the "Great Tribulation" is not the whole 7 years but the last 3 1/2 years of the 7 year peroid, but yes the ist Seal is in Rev. 6:1 and it is a "false peace" brought in by the A/C.
No confusion intended but my medication wore off, or is it time for the medication. Who knows??
My understnading of the judgments is that.................
1st Seal = A/C
2nd Seal = War
3rd Seal = Famine
4th Seal = Death of 1/4 earth
5th Seal = Martydom
6th Seal = Heavenly/earthly disturbances
7th Seal = The Trumpet Judgments
(The 7th Seal is and and then overlaps the 1st Trumpet judgment.)
1 st Trumpet = 1/3 of Earth smitten
2nd Trumpet = 1/3 of Seaa smitten
3rd Trumpet = 1/3 of fresh water smitten
4th Trumpet = 1/3 of Sun, moon & stars smitten
5th Trumpet = Locusts torment men for 5 months
6th Trumpet = 200,000,000 man army slays 1/3 of men
7th Trumpet = The Bowl Judgmnents
(The 7th Trumpet is and then overlaps the 1st Bowl judgment)
1st Bowl = Sores on worshipper of beast
2nd Bowl = Entire Sea smitten
3rd Bowl = All fresh water smitten
4th Bowl = Sun scorches men
5th Bowl = Darkness on beast kingdom
6th Bowl = Euphrates River drys up makeing the way clear for the kings of the East
7th Bowl = Great earthquake/Hail, Babylon destroyed
ARMAGEDDON.
Hey Major, You're not the only soup bone in the pot. I believe Gene's reply was directed to me,....the last part anyway.
Hey Major, You're not the only soup bone in the pot. I believe Gene's reply was directed to me,....the last part anyway.
Oh my. Please forgive me calvin. My age is showing I am afraid.
Listen, I think we are getting more work done on your thread here than the "Revelation Think Tank".
So why not lets expand this and see what we can do ????