Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are right

LysanderShapiro said:
What are you talking about? Can you simplify your question? I'm not sure if you're saying that I suggested that God isn't the supreme creator or something else.

I did say in that post that God is not A supreme BEING, which is true -- He isn't. I'm using example in the same way that the early theologians did. Unless I'm mistaken (which I may be), it sounds like you read "God is not supreme," which is not what I said. The key part was that God is not A BEING.

Unless I am misreading everything, some of you are looking at the words "divine" and "supreme" as being the key words. The key words are "a being" which suggests that God is a product of something greater -- which He's not. He is where all products come from.
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Doesn't the phrase...."A being" indicate that there is more than one.

If we took John 1:1...."In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

The JW's add the letter "A" to its translation (New World Translation) which then reads......."and the Word was A God.".

That does the same thing by suggesting that Christ was one of many not the ONLY ONE. It opens the door of another explination of God when one is actually not needed, because God has said that he is the Great I AM!

Then Romans 11:33-36 tells us.......
“O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways! For who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser? or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid him? seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!”

These verses declare, in an absolute sense, the deity and divinity of God as the Supreme being who created all things by the power of His Word.. They are majestic in their conception, they are all-embracing in their scope.

“For us there is one God.” It is not sufficient that we should just recognize this; we must add the further truth, “out of Whom all is,” and this additional truth is meaningless unless we stress the comprehensiveness of the word all. We cannot have part out of God and part from something else. That something else being evolution.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
And I agree too. If we're using the term "being" as just meaning in existence, then of course. But we can't count God as A being. Instead, He IS being. We're products of that being.
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I think Larry that we are talking about semantics.

I believe that THE God of creation is THE Supreme Being and you are saying........"He is being".
Again, IMO that thinking can be taken by some so as to say that there may be more than one.
Where as "THE" indicates only one Creator.

We are products of HIM as the Scriptures tell us in Genesis 1:26-27
“Let us make man in our image, in our likeness” (Genesis 1:26). (Our being the Trinity).

Thus, He finished His work with a “personal touch.” God formed man from the dust and gave him life by sharing His own breath (Genesis 2:7).

The God of creation is absolutely right and He was, is, and always will be, the Supreme Being. IMO.
 
Major said:
I think Larry that we are talking about semantics.

I believe that THE God of creation is THE Supreme Being and you are saying........"He is being".
Again, IMO that thinking can be taken by some so as to say that there may be more than one.
Where as "THE" indicates only one Creator.

We are products of HIM as the Scriptures tell us in Genesis 1:26-27
“Let us make man in our image, in our likeness” (Genesis 1:26). (Our being the Trinity).

Thus, He finished His work with a “personal touch.” God formed man from the dust and gave him life by sharing His own breath (Genesis 2:7).

The God of creation is absolutely right and He was, is, and always will be, the Supreme Being. IMO.
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No, I agree -- I think you're right that it is just semantics.
Going back to the original concerns of the thread, people were saying that Pope Francis was claiming that God is not THE Supreme Being, which is not what he was saying at all.

Ultimately, you, me, and the pope are all in agreement in regards to who and what God is, which is the ultimate, omnipotent, divine, all-loving, all-knowing, God.
 
Major said:
Doesn't the phrase...."A being" indicate that there is more than one.

If we took John 1:1...."In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

The JW's add the letter "A" to its translation (New World Translation) which then reads......."and the Word was A God.".

That does the same thing by suggesting that Christ was one of many not the ONLY ONE. It opens the door of another explination of God when one is actually not needed, because God has said that he is the Great I AM!

Then Romans 11:33-36 tells us.......
“O, the depth of the riches and the wisdom and the knowledge of God! How inscrutable are His judgments, and untraceable His ways! For who knew the mind of the Lord? or, who became His adviser? or, who gives to Him first, and it will be repaid him? seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!”

These verses declare, in an absolute sense, the deity and divinity of God as the Supreme being who created all things by the power of His Word.. They are majestic in their conception, they are all-embracing in their scope.

“For us there is one God.” It is not sufficient that we should just recognize this; we must add the further truth, “out of Whom all is,” and this additional truth is meaningless unless we stress the comprehensiveness of the word all. We cannot have part out of God and part from something else. That something else being evolution.
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Exactly. :)

I never questioned that you or anyone else here thought about God as other than what He is. You guys are smart and understand.
 
Look at the sentence: ''God is not a divine being or a magician, but the Creator who brought everything to life''. Try to justify all you like but God IS one being who brought the universe into existence by WORD. He is not an amorphous force who left His creation to "evolve". Implied in the Pope's sentence is God is not a being, not divine, and only created life and stood back. What is a magician but one who gives evidence of illusion, or the impossible, by using the physics of the natural world and then doesn't tell us the trick? It is a sentence that makes no sense and is ripe with what another poster typed a portal to error.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
No, I agree -- I think you're right that it is just semantics.
Going back to the original concerns of the thread, people were saying that Pope Francis was claiming that God is not THE Supreme Being, which is not what he was saying at all.

Ultimately, you, me, and the pope are all in agreement in regards to who and what God is, which is the ultimate, omnipotent, divine, all-loving, all-knowing, God.
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I agree brother. However, it seems to me that this Pope has the habit of saying too many controversial things that are then left up to people like yourself to be explained.

You probably will not agree to that and it is not a "trap" comment, simply an observation by little old me.
 
Silk said:
Look at the sentence: ''God is not a divine being or a magician, but the Creator who brought everything to life''. Try to justify all you like but God IS one being who brought the universe into existence by WORD. He is not an amorphous force who left His creation to "evolve". Implied in the Pope's sentence is God is not a being, not divine, and only created life and stood back. What is a magician but one who gives evidence of illusion, or the impossible, by using the physics of the natural world and then doesn't tell us the trick? It is a sentence that makes no sense and is ripe with what another poster typed a portal to error.
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Well put Silk...as always! God Bless!
 
Major said:
I agree brother. However, it seems to me that this Pope has the habit of saying too many controversial things that are then left up to people like yourself to be explained.

You probably will not agree to that and it is not a "trap" comment, simply an observation by little old me.
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Y'know, that is one thing many devout, Conservative Catholics are concerned about. While we believe the validity of the pope, he isn't a very clear speaker. That's not his style. The Vatican routinely releases a summary of pontifical statements and speeches so that people aren't left scratching their heads. However, it's also not as sensational as only going toward the pope's statements. The media loves to talk about what Pope Francis says because they can twist it to their agenda.

With Pope Benedict XVI, it wasn't as easy because he was such a straight shooter.

The clearest Pope Francis was recently was at the synod where he wrote a personal statements in regards to homosexuality and divorce, had it printed up, and given directly to media outlets so that they could not misinterpret any single word. As soon as he did that, the media went silent because they knew they wouldn't be able to twist anything.

In this situation specifically, a lot of people did know exactly what Pope Francis meant. Some didn't evidently. But this is also why it's important to read prior statements and Vatican releases before criticizing. Assumptions are often made. Bottom line, the pope never said that God is not divine or non-existent. In fact, if understood correctly, you'd find he was saying that God is omnipotent. But I understand the misunderstanding.

I had a conversation with a priest friend of mine (a Dominican). He said one concern he has of Pope Francis is that off-the-cuff responses which have so many priests and bishops having to clean up any verbal messes left. But that the same time, the Vatican has a specific wing of bishops which focus on delivering summaries to the masses. It's just that a lot of people don't check them.
 
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Godspell said:
The Bible has plenty of wisdom in it, and I do believe that. However, whatever evidence you think is contained in scripture that suggests certain scientific theory I guarantee can only be viewed retrospectively. And of course you yourself are falling prey to cognitive dissonance because you ignore the times where biblical stories do not allign with scientific theory. For instance evolution.

I will say that the wiser one becomes in scriptural truth and in scientific truth, the more they will begin to converge. Unfortunately, not many are very wise to scientific truth and even fewer to biblical truth.
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I'm sorry you decide to believe man over God, but I'll stick with God. His word is used for scientific discoveries and I've given you one example. I shan't waste another.
 
Hi Guys, sorry that I made the comment and had to be off for the weekend....but here I am to give my take....

I took the time to read all the comments since I made the comment and I had a lot of fun....even when I was acused of misleding people and taken things out of context....

I would like to answer everyones comments, but it will be very difficult due to my lack of time....

“God is not a divine being or a magician, but the Creator who brought everything to life”

So, here is my concern....

There was a lot of back in forth with the word BEING.....so..to start!

1- I tought Jesus become a HUMAN BEING in order to save the world...its clear through out the Bible....is it? I guess He is also Divine!

So, is Jesus a Divine being!???????

My faithfull brother @Major probaly would clarify that with scriputures if you like!

2- God is not a magician? Off course not.....He does not play tricks at anyone to misled people...He is Truth all the time! More over He can and is whatever He want to be! If He wants to create the world in 6 days would He not be able to!? Becouse in doing so, science would disagree...them we compare God to a Magician?......

3- I even have a tird point, little hard ...but the pope MAY be saying the God is only the Creator of life and not everything that existed! Like using the famous PRIMORDIAL SOUP! Read the last part again....Nothing estrange....He may be interpreting Genesis as some do...

And last....I did not condemnded the Pope I just said I was "CONCERN".

I tought Johann Tetzel had came back to life when I started reading the responses...

I have to confess the I almost felt I had to nail the 95 teses again...lol

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the Popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen. ”

Luther....

"Thank you Jesus, for the reformation day, other wise, the chance that I would have to discuss with my brothers and sisters in Christ these simple matters and your Unfaling word on this thing called Internet would not be possible"

The addtion is mine! God Bless EVERYONE!
 
Leo_ACH said:
Hi Guys, sorry that I made the comment and had to be off for the weekend....but here I am to give my take....

I took the time to read all the comments since I made the comment and I had a lot of fun....even when I was acused of misleding people and taken things out of context....

I would like to answer everyones comments, but it will be very difficult due to my lack of time....

“God is not a divine being or a magician, but the Creator who brought everything to life”

So, here is my concern....

There was a lot of back in forth with the word BEING.....so..to start!

1- I tought Jesus become a HUMAN BEING in order to save the world...its clear through out the Bible....is it? I guess He is also Divine!

So, is Jesus a Divine being!???????

My faithfull brother @Major probaly would clarify that with scriputures if you like!

2- God is not a magician? Off course not.....He does not play tricks at anyone to misled people...He is Truth all the time! More over He can and is whatever He want to be! If He wants to create the world in 6 days would He not be able to!? Becouse in doing so, science would disagree...them we compare God to a Magician?......

3- I even have a tird point, little hard ...but the pope MAY be saying the God is only the Creator of life and not everything that existed! Like using the famous PRIMORDIAL SOUP! Read the last part again....Nothing estrange....He may be interpreting Genesis as some do...

And last....I did not condemnded the Pope I just said I was "CONCERN".

I tought Johann Tetzel had came back to life when I started reading the responses...

I have to confess the I almost felt I had to nail the 95 teses again...lol

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the Popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen. ”

Luther....

"Thank you Jesus, for the reformation day, other wise, the chance that I would have to discuss with my brothers and sisters in Christ these simple matters and your Unfaling word on this thing called Internet would not be possible"

The addtion is mine! God Bless EVERYONE!
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About Jesus...... Col 2:9. For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily,
so yes, He is divine

No one is asking you to accept the authority of Popes unless you want to join the RCC.
He is the head of the Vatican state and should be extended every courtesy due his position.
He is the head of the RCC and as such is due the courtesy that should go with that. Rom 13:7. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.
I am not an adherent of the RCC myself, but I see no honouring of our Lord Jesus Christ in judging and condemning those who see things differently than I/we/us.
Discussing, reasoning about things is healthy as long as it is done with mutual respect and Christian love..
 
Leo_ACH said:
Hi Guys, sorry that I made the comment and had to be off for the weekend....but here I am to give my take....

I took the time to read all the comments since I made the comment and I had a lot of fun....even when I was acused of misleding people and taken things out of context....

I would like to answer everyones comments, but it will be very difficult due to my lack of time....

“God is not a divine being or a magician, but the Creator who brought everything to life”

So, here is my concern....

There was a lot of back in forth with the word BEING.....so..to start!

1- I tought Jesus become a HUMAN BEING in order to save the world...its clear through out the Bible....is it? I guess He is also Divine!

So, is Jesus a Divine being!???????

My faithfull brother @Major probaly would clarify that with scriputures if you like!

2- God is not a magician? Off course not.....He does not play tricks at anyone to misled people...He is Truth all the time! More over He can and is whatever He want to be! If He wants to create the world in 6 days would He not be able to!? Becouse in doing so, science would disagree...them we compare God to a Magician?......

3- I even have a tird point, little hard ...but the pope MAY be saying the God is only the Creator of life and not everything that existed! Like using the famous PRIMORDIAL SOUP! Read the last part again....Nothing estrange....He may be interpreting Genesis as some do...

And last....I did not condemnded the Pope I just said I was "CONCERN".

I tought Johann Tetzel had came back to life when I started reading the responses...

I have to confess the I almost felt I had to nail the 95 teses again...lol

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason - I do not accept the authority of the Popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other - my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen. ”

Luther....

"Thank you Jesus, for the reformation day, other wise, the chance that I would have to discuss with my brothers and sisters in Christ these simple matters and your Unfaling word on this thing called Internet would not be possible"

The addtion is mine! God Bless EVERYONE!
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Excellent points and I agree with you.

We have had the conversation with our Catholic friends many times over which is more important......the Word of God or the traditions of men.

I am always going to bend to Gods Word, however I agree totally with "calvin" on his post above.
 
Major said:
Excellent points and I agree with you.

We have had the conversation with our Catholic friends many times over which is more important......the Word of God or the traditions of men.

I am always going to bend to Gods Word as ALL men are sinners and open to errors.
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I think we should go further and say that traditions of men are pale in comparison to the Word of God. If anything, traditions of men are dangerous and need to be thrown out when they conflict.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
I think we should go further and say that traditions of men are pale in comparison to the Word of God. If anything, traditions of men are dangerous and need to be thrown out when they conflict.
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For me this is your best statement! Lol.....

You reminded me of when Luther went to the Square to burn the note he had recived from the pope comndeming his acts....

People gather far away from him to see what was going to happen, so they tought the God would strike Luther as soon as he would burn the note....

He survived....

God bless....
 
Leo_ACH said:
For me this is your best statement! Lol.....

You reminded me of when Luther went to the Square to burn the note he had recived from the pope comndeming his acts....

People gather far away from him to see what was going to happen, so they tought the God would strike Luther as soon as he would burn the note....

He survived....

God bless....
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Thank you -- I appreciate the kind words. Though I will say that my statement is not in contradiction of Papal teaching -- it's aligned with it very closely in fact.
 
ASUK said:
I guess this changes things a bit.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/pope-francis-declares-evolution-and-big-bang-theory-are-right-and-god-isnt-a-magician-with-a-magic-wand-9822514.html[/QUOTE]

What man with a friend, desiring to cross a busy road and their friend says its ok to cross and will do so without looking to see if their right?
No one with understanding will. For all men know that no man is infallible .
and what driver with wife or husband as passenger next to them ,desiring to enter a busy main road from a side road and their husband or wife says its free we can go out now will do so on just their word; but will not check first to see if they are right ?
The great errors of Rome proved beyond all reasonable doubt both by biblical argument and by her reactions to those undeniable proofs . which she still teaches as truth are now compounded by her assertion that the Popes are infallible in them.
So why the surprise?
But let us not get too caught up in our pointing the finger at Rome. For many believers reject or doubt the account of Genesis as it is written. But mix truth with error and to satisfy a disbelieving world also believe that all things started with a big BANG! and evolution is true.

But tell me if a person believes that Jesus forgives sin and has saved their souls why do they not also believe Him concerning all else?
Did the young man let down through the roof and was told his sins were forgiven through faith .Then not believe Him when Jesus said take up thy bed and walk?
and what of "ye fathers ye know Him who is from the beginning"?
How can you know Him who is from the beginning ,that is to say the creator if you do not believe what he says about it?
Is it not written we understand by faith that God created the world?
If we are to come to know Him who is from the beginning .Then we have to believe Him who hath "in these last days spoken to us by His Son"

in Christ
Gerald
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Abdicate said:
I'm sorry you decide to believe man over God, but I'll stick with God. His word is used for scientific discoveries and I've given you one example. I shan't waste another.
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As I've said before, your position only works looking at particular verses retroactively and ignoring those that contradict. For instance scripture indicates that the sun revolves around the earth and that the earth is flat.

And don't be so sanctimonious by presuming you have more faith than I do just because you think some scientific theory is more compatible with the Bible than another. Faith is not founded on intellectual knowledge of science, it is a gift from God and has very little to do with what you know about the world.

So if your trying to understand truth, we can be a little more flexible in our interpretation of scripture and science. If your going to ride a hardline about how the Word of God trumps "man-made" science, I will simply point out to you that the entirety of the Bible was consolidated and written by men. Being derived from man does not necessarily mean it is wrong.
 
KingJ said:
No it doesn't. The problem with TE is the E. Change it to Theistic scientist. Natural observations do not point to evolution. Natural observations are construed to justify evolution.
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KingJ, we share 98% of DNA with Chimps, and 99.99% with other humans. There is a fossil record showing the gradual change from chimp to primordial human to modern day human with gradual changes in the bone structure, back and size of the head. There are similar fossil records for other species and within the record there are different species from different times without overlap. Not every aspect of evolution is fact, but the science of evolution as a natural phenomenon is irrefutable.
 
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