Preventing Pregnancy Displeases Thee Lord

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LysanderShapiro said:
Because marriage is a holy commitment; a vocation. It's not something that two people simply do because it's nice.



Of course it's pivotal. It's a subject of telling God "God, you're welcome in OUR marriage, but when we go to bed, you'll have to take a hike." We don't stop being Christians in the bedroom. Our Christian duty continues in every single activity.

The idea that certain sins can be taken or left is damning.
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I agree, but how does arguing about contraception help any of us who are already in right-standing with God? This issue isn't pivotal because it isn't about others coming to Christ.
 
Cosmicwaffle said:
Why call yourself a sinner?Are we not saints by the blood of Jesus Christ?
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We remain sinners, which is why we need the blood of Christ. We are not perfect, infallible, non-sinning people.

Cosmicwaffle said:
The problem with most of these threads is it is some man or woman who feel a need to make their relationship with God better by arguing for or against a certain issue. It is not loving and really these topics only come up because of fear.
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My relationship with God is beside the point. It's not a means to make myself feel better or make anyone else feel worse. If we can't discuss something like then, then why discuss anything at all?

Cosmicwaffle said:
In Jesus Christ we are given a new identity as children who stand right before God!
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That doesn't mean we can continue to sin...Of course we do because we are humans, but we must always do are absolute best to reject it. I thought this was an obvious statement.

Cosmicwaffle said:
The reason I ask "Why does this matter?" is because if you are righteous in Christ your focus isn't so much on if you are doing or believing things that are right or not, save the Word of God. The Holy Spirit shows us what we are to avoid and we do because we believe we are dead to sin, and no longer alive to it.
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I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree with you. We are especially bound to live go Godly love as Christians. My favorite verse is 1 Corinthians 13:13, and it explicitly mentions that love is the greatest of the three theological virtues. We can't dismiss it.
Cosmicwaffle said:
But when we sit here and strive about topics we are just trying to justify our beliefs so we feel better in our relationship with God. We are already righteous! Our focus should be on bringing people to that right relationship with him again, not striving about whether or not we block semen!
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Once we are Christians, we really do have a responsibility to do something about sin -- by rejecting it and exposing it. We aren't supposed to sit idly by and allow it to take place.
 
Cosmicwaffle said:
We could, but why would we if truly believe the things Christ said? The Scriptures say I am dead to sin, and I believe it.
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The Scriptures also says faith without works is dead, and I believe that as well as your verse.

I don't mean to sound harsh -- this isn't meant to be facetious because sometimes I fall into the trap of sin...but are you justifying contraception because you don't want to give it up?
 
LysanderShapiro said:
The Scriptures also says faith without works is dead, and I believe that as well as your verse.

I don't mean to sound harsh -- this isn't meant to be facetious because sometimes I fall into the trap of sin...but are you justifying contraception because you don't want to give it up?
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No, I just don't think it's a big deal.

I'm more focused on my relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and the identity that I've been given. But if you really wish to sit here and argue about how people have sex, be my guest.
 
Too many people think being in Christ or being one with Christ means trying your very best to please him. That is not the case at all! When we are in Christ we are in the identity he gave us at the cross, and by that righteousness and the power of it we conquer sin. We were never mean't to try really hard to stop sinning, but through God's power we overcome it!

So we should be focusing on that power and giving it to others! Not sitting and pointing at the sins of the world.
 
You can argue with a stump, but the stump aint listening.

Any person can use this sort of reasoning to justify any behavior, regardless of the obvious sin.

Here I'll throw a few examples y'alls way:

"I'm a baptised Christian and I'm right with Christ, my meth habit just doesn't interfere with my walk with God. Isn't Jesus more powerful than meth?"

"I serve the chruch and follow Our Lord's word in everything. My occasional infidelities have no real bearing on the rest of my life."

And a little scripture -

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
 
Cosmicwaffle said:
No, I just don't think it's a big deal.

I'm more focused on my relationship with God through Jesus Christ, and the identity that I've been given. But if you really wish to sit here and argue about how people have sex, be my guest.
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I can't force you into anything. All I'm doing is expressing what I believe to be objectively true. It's 100% up to you how you wish to live your life.
 
Cosmicwaffle said:
Too many people think being in Christ or being one with Christ means trying your very best to please him. That is not the case at all! When we are in Christ we are in the identity he gave us at the cross, and by that righteousness and the power of it we conquer sin. We were never mean't to try really hard to stop sinning, but through God's power we overcome it!

So we should be focusing on that power and giving it to others! Not sitting and pointing at the sins of the world.
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All I'm suggesting is that once we've repented and come to Christ, we have an obligation to do something about sin. The Scriptures are very clear about that. I'm not telling you how to live your life at all. It's not my place.

This discussion is about birth control. All I did was contribute and make the case as to why it is absolutely wrong.
 
Glomung said:
Responsibility - an oddly used word, often used to justify all sorts of evil.
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That's a very odd corrolary to associate with responsibility.
Would you elaborate please?

In other words, lets just stick to facetious justifications for living our lives the way we want to, instead of actually attempting to do the Lord's will.
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Please show me the scripture where the Lord says to engage in carnal lusts and pro-create irresponsibly.
 
Scripture Bird said:
Please show me the scripture where the Lord says to engage in carnal lusts and pro-create irresponsibly.
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Scripture Bird, the Scriptures don't say any of that, nor was Glomung making that case.

The argument we are both making is that 1) birth control does promote carnal lust which is why Christians have always been against it for 2000 years, and 2) pro-creation is not to be an irresponsible act -- it is an act for those in a committed, responsible marriage.

Can you show me in the Scriptures where it says sex performed with the divide of an openness to conceive is good? I can't, but I can find passages that express where it is wrong.
 
"Please show me the scripture where the Lord says to engage in carnal lusts and pro-create irresponsibly.
"

Again with the red herring.
Please show me in scripture where the Lord says to restrict your fertility.

Would you elaborate please?

When folks claim they are being responsible, their motives are often otherwise.

Those who restrict peasant ownership of weapons usually base their reasoning on a responsibilty to ensure the safety of all.
When all they are actually doing is making sure they have a monopoly on violence.

Governments who restrict water use, land use, or any other need of the people always claim they have a responsibilty
to the future/nature/country (pick one) to justify their theft of resources.
 
This isn't meant to be said to attack, but it's an observation...

I knew many Christians have become flexible in regards to abortion and homosexuality, but I honestly had no idea of how flexible they've become to contraception, and on a much larger level sadly.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
1) Onan had a responsibility to marry and procreate with his brother's wife.

2) He was greedy and lustful and decided he would have sex with her, but avoided procreation as best he could.

3) God was displeased and had him killed.

Contraception...what are the reasons of using it?

The case of Onan isn't that he disobeyed God arbitrarily. He ignores God's plan, decides not to pass down what would have gone to his son, and dismissed his wife's fruitfulness by spilling his seed to the ground.

And it was all caused by a means of birth control.
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Do you think God would have killed Onan if he would have simply refused to have sex with her instead of spilling his seed?
 
ASUK said:
Do you think God would have killed Onan if he would have simply refused to have sex with her instead of spilling his seed?
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Well, God did kill him because of his disobedience. Wouldn't refusing to do what God told him in any regard still probably lead to some sort of punishment?

What do you think?
 
Cosmicwaffle said:
Well that may be true for you, but believe it or not, some Christians don't want children (I do). I'm so sorry for the trouble you and your wife are having, but we shouldn't make this such an issue for everyone.

What are we going to accomplish through this thread? Is there going to be a final verdict that we can or cannot use contraceptions? No, of course not. It's going to end up like most threads with the moderator ending it and everyone staying on their own sides.

Titus 3:9
But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
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I'm not saying it's sinful to use birth control. I don't believe it is, but I believe it's similar to life support. Making decisions about life, which I don't know if we should be doing.

I have no doubt that many people are not going to change their minds but I think it's worth discussing. Maybe people will reconsider position based on what I'm saying and maybe not. I believe it's a personal choice but I think there is more to consider than our own selfish desires to live life the way we want.

Cosmicwaffle said:
What will the world think about Christ when they see his church arguing over personal matters such as this?
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The same could be said about any topic.
 
LysanderShapiro said:
Well, God did kill him because of his disobedience. Wouldn't refusing to do what God told him in any regard still probably lead to some sort of punishment?

What do you think?
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So if he would have simply abstained he would have met the same fate?

I'm having a problem seeing the difference in contraception and planned abstinence.

If you have the urge to have sex but don't want a child you can use protection or abstain. Both have the same result, no child.
 
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