Prophecy about DNA: Good and Evil Seed

GBzone

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What has the DNA of a man got to do with anything?

Jesus did not come to make bad men good .But dead men live .

The seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman has nothing to do with the seed of Adam,.

If you go to the parable " by which understand all parables " Jesus said what the seed is .
"The Word is the seed"
We are born of a corrupted seed that is of Adam.
We need to be BORNagain of the "incorruptible seed which is the Word of God "

We have to stop trying to resolve modern scientific thought and scripture .

When God said the seed of the woman . He knew full well that a woman has no seed ,But has only the egg.
It is the MAN who has the seed and as every seed brings forth fruit after its own KIND then we are MANkind not another .
God wishing to show that this one ("IT") male child (" HE") would not be of Adams seed .spoke of a womans seed .

If then the seed of the Woman was and is the Word of God .
Then the seed of the serpent was and is the word of the devil .
and as of God it is the truth then of the other it is the lie .
and as God is the father of the truth.,
So then is the devil the father of lies .

As the law of the seed is that each seed will bring forth fruit after its own kind . Then each seed is predestined to bring forth fruit after its kind,

Thus Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God like unto a good man who sowed the good seed in his field but while men slept his enemy came and sowed tares.

We are all by nature children of wrath or were . and "children of disobedience"
Born in sin and shapen in iniquity . For while man was CREATED in the image of God .He is BORN in the image of Adam .

This is deeper than DNA

Both as to nature and in what image we are BORN with .
When my son was born I saw my image in him and acknowledged and recognised my image .He bore my image because I was his father and he came forth from me .
If he had not come from me he would not have born my image but the image of his true father.

We are then by nature predestined to wrath corruption and damnation and deservedly so.

Which is why "we MUST be BORNagain" that we might not only be translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of Gods dear Son but may also be translated from one predestination to another .
For the law that applies to the corruptible seed . Applies also to the incoruptable seed.
The one from corruption unto death .
The other righteousness unto life .
Did not Jesus say "Unless a seed fall into the ground and die it abideth alone ,but if it dies it bringeth forth much fruit " What fruit?
Even after its own kind.

There is a difference between the GIFT of prophecy and the MINISTRY of a prophet .
But like everything else . There is so little sound teaching about prophecy .Both positive and negative .That it is no wonder we have so many problems about it.

In Christ
gerald
 
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Agreed! The key to what you just said and I agree is ..........
"Even yesterday God told me wonderful things about His grace through book of Galatians..".

I am specifically talking about those that stand and say..."God just told ME".

The idea of it being JUST ME gives the thought of privilege and elitism which is exactly that Paul warned us about when he said......
"God is not a respecter of persons".
I agree once again.. I would even go one step further.. let's take this example. A person is tempted with lustful thoughts. He is about to visit some unnecessary websites in his computer. Then Holy Spirit convicts and he resists the temptation. he can say God told him not to go near the computer and simply shut it down! Because it was Holy Spirit which convicted, guided and enabled the person to overcome temptation. In such cases "God told me" might be acceptable. It is not extra biblical. It is specific for that person, not contradicting the Bible or not adding to the Bible.

And I exactly know what you are saying :) So I am in no away contradicting you :D
 
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I agree once again.. I would even go one step further.. let's take this example. A person is tempted with lustful thoughts. He is about to visit some unnecessary websites in his computer. Then Holy Spirit convicts and he resists the temptation. he can say God told him not to go near the computer and simply shut it down! Because it was Holy Spirit which convicted, guided and enabled the person to overcome temptation. In such cases "God told me" might be acceptable. It is not extra biblical. It is specific for that person, not contradicting the Bible or not adding to the Bible.

And I exactly know what you are saying :) So I am in no away contradicting you :D
I agree Rav. I personally have no problem with that at all. If fact I believe THAT is one of the purposes of the Holy Spirit.
 
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What has the DNA of a man got to do with anything?

Jesus did not come to make bad men good .But dead men live .

The seed of the serpent and the seed of the woman has nothing to do with the seed of Adam,.

If you go to the parable " by which understand all parables " Jesus said what the seed is .
"The Word is the seed"
We are born of a corrupted seed that is of Adam.
We need to be BORNagain of the "incorruptible seed which is the Word of God "

We have to stop trying to resolve modern scientific thought and scripture .

When God said the seed of the woman . He knew full well that a woman has no seed ,But has only the egg.
It is the MAN who has the seed and as every seed brings forth fruit after its own KIND then we are MANkind not another .
God wishing to show that this one ("IT") male child (" HE") would not be of Adams seed .spoke of a womans seed .

If then the seed of the Woman was and is the Word of God .
Then the seed of the serpent was and is the word of the devil .
and as of God it is the truth then of the other it is the lie .
and as God is the father of the truth.,
So then is the devil the father of lies .

As the law of the seed is that each seed will bring forth fruit after its own kind . Then each seed is predestined to bring forth fruit after its kind,

Thus Jesus spoke of the kingdom of God like unto a good man who sowed the good seed in his field but while men slept his enemy came and sowed tares.

We are all by nature children of wrath or were . and "children of disobedience"
Born in sin and shapen in iniquity . For while man was CREATED in the image of God .He is BORN in the image of Adam .

This is deeper than DNA

Both as to nature and in what image we are BORN with .
When my son was born I saw my image in him and acknowledged and recognised my image .He bore my image because I was his father and he came forth from me .
If he had not come from me he would not have born my image but the image of his true father.

We are then by nature predestined to wrath corruption and damnation and deservedly so.

Which is why "we MUST be BORNagain" that we might not only be translated from the kingdom of darkness to the kingdom of Gods dear Son but may also be translated from one predestination to another .
For the law that applies to the corruptible seed . Applies also to the incoruptable seed.
The one from corruption unto death .
The other righteousness unto life .
Did not Jesus say "Unless a seed fall into the ground and die it abideth alone ,but if it dies it bringeth forth much fruit " What fruit?
Even after its own kind.

There is a difference between the GIFT of prophecy and the MINISTRY of a prophet .
But like everything else . There is so little sound teaching about prophecy .Both positive and negative .That it is no wonder we have so many problems about it.

In Christ
gerald
Gerald. I agree with what you said with the only exception being ---
"There is a difference between the GIFT of prophecy and the MINISTRY of a prophet".

And actually I do not disagree because you are in fact correct, I just do not believe that there are prophets today.

1 Corth. 13:8-10 tells me clearly that.........
"Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 now we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect one comes, the partial will pass away."
 
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GBzone

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You will not like what I am going to say but that does not mean I do not respect you or care for you.

IMO there are NO prophets today my dear friend.

God's plan has been written in His Word and we call that the Bible. God's Word is complete and He is running His plan today.

When anyone says...."God spoke to me and said", that my dear friend is subjective and self serving.
While I do not agree with the prophecy and have stated why elsewhere.
I would still have to ask you is God dead? That he no longer speaks?
I am also aware of how many people take things at face value and many are encouraged to 'prophecy ' but "not of me saith the Lord " Who prophecy "out of the imagination of their own hearts " at best . But others by the promptings and 'inspiration' of the devil .
But that does not mean that the gift of prophecy is no longer given and as for Prophets . A person can receive the gift of prophecy but that does not make him the minister to the church who is called a prophet. Ephesians .
The church cannot be perfected or the Bride made ready with out ALL those God given ministers to the church as laid out in Ephesians 2.
Given that God created all things and all things are" upheld by the Word of His power" Then everything he has created can SPEAK to a believer potentially .
But remember Gideon? he had HEARD of God who was in the past and believed . Yet there came a day when he met with God and heard from God and that the lines of communication began and once established things began to change for the better .
Moses had HEARD of God and by what he had heard he believed and had such understanding he knew that God by Him would deliver the Children of Israel out of bondage. Yet it was not till he was 80(?) did a common feature of the wilderness of a burning bush made extraordinary by God draw his attention enough to turn aside to see this strange thing .
God knows how to get any mans attention and expecially when his thoughts and medications are upon God and then it is the time when God breaks into a mans thinking .
Moses had HEARD of God but now ......................... A conversation started and was established and from that moment on things began to change for the better .
Shall we mention JOB ? Who by his own testimony had only ".....HEARD of Thee" yet on what he had only heard and believed his life was so transformed that God could as it were could boast of him in heaven . Yet when God began to speak to him and reveal Himself to Job through what he said . Job confessed I have heard of thee now mine eyes seeth Thee"
he then repented in dust and ashes .
Shall we speak of Issiah? A true prophet of God called and ministered in the Lords name . Yet in chapter 6 "in the year king Hussiah died I saw the Lord high and lifted up ......" and there too communication began and was established .

I would therefore suggest that every true BORN child of God has to meet with the Lord and the Lord speak to him and he listens and responds.
Many in the church have HEARD of him. But all must also meet with the Lord and continue to speak and listen and respond.
What else is prayer? if not God speaking and you speaking ?

in Christ
gerald
 

GBzone

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Gerald. I agree with what you said with the only exception being ---
"There is a difference between the GIFT of prophecy and the MINISTRY of a prophet".

And actually I do not disagree because you are in fact correct, I just do not believe that there are prophets today.

1 Corth. 13:8-10 tells me clearly that.........
"Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. 9 now we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10 but when the perfect one comes, the partial will pass away."
If knowledge has not ceased and tounges have not ceased and neither has prophecy . Then what is the perfect shall come ? The Lord? who has .
Or the Bride that has not ?
and if it is the Lord who has come and we then need no more prophets . Why then does Paul in Epehsians 2 give ALL the ministrys of God as in Apostles ,prophets ,pastors,teachers, evangelists as given to the church and needed for its perfection
after the Lord has come!?
and if the church accepts Pastors teachers and evangelists as true . Why then not the other two?
This I have never heard reasonably or biblically acceptably explained or resolved .

Therefore I do not accept that there are no REAL Apostles and Prophets . I simply do not have the understanding exactly of what both are .
Having said that .I also recognise there was and is false prophets and apostles parading themselves about and performing their deceiving acts before the church and it seems a lot in the church receive them who come in their own name .
But I will not cast away truth because of anothers errors .
In truth the true pattern of an Apostle has to be PAUL . and while we may not need another Paul .Nevertheless the pattern he laid down ahs to be followed in some measure by any who do call themselves (?) an Apostle .
I have only met one man who by life ministry and doctrine I would possibly call an Apostle. But he denies it an d continues on.

So then will I.

In Christ

gerald
 

GBzone

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That was Jesus :D

You know scriptures way better than me.. I would still quote :D

1 Corinthians 4:6 I have applied all these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, brothers, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

Because Joseph Smith believed (or made others to believe) that Jesus is still giving extra biblical revelation, we have the whole group of mormons today!

There is the BODY of truth which are the scriptures .Then there is the Spirit of truth" by which we may know the Spirit of error "
You "try the spirits " By the Spirit of truth who ; if you are HIS dwealeth IN you"

in Christ

gerald
 

GBzone

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Agreed! The key to what you just said and I agree is ..........
"Even yesterday God told me wonderful things about His grace through book of Galatians..".

I am specifically talking about those that stand and say..."God just told ME".

The idea of it being JUST ME gives the thought of privilege and elitism which is exactly that Paul warned us about when he said......
"God is not a respecter of persons".
There is quite a difference between "God just told me" and "Thus says the Lord"
The one gives a little bit of glory to the speaker .it is thought
.
The other it is all of God and you stand in His stead and speak what you have heard /or seen.

in Christ

gerald
 

GBzone

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Acts 2:17 (NASB)


17 ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says,
‘That I will pour forth of My Spirit on all mankind;
And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
And your young men shall see visions,
And your old men shall dream dreams;



I do not agree with the post because it must completely agree with scripture and it does not. (2 Tim 2:15)
But as the scripture says and there are others also that say these gifts exist. I personally believe we are in the last days; we live in a world that debates when is the best time to kill children it has moved past whether it is right or wrong.
I personally believe in the gifts of Holy Spirit, I believe He continues to lead and teach.
I believe in God's word and believe to discard any of it you might as well pitch it all because if God is not 100% who He says He is He is not God.


peter
I do not believe it is enough to simply assert that a person is wrong .Even if they are . But you must also show why they are ,Not only for the sake of anybody else reading this .But expecialy to the person who you say is wrong in matters of prophecy .
So that they may be corrected both in their thinking and instructed in righteousness .Rather than have needless strife and undermines their faith so that they might established on a firmer footing .

in Christ
gerald
 
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There is quite a difference between "God just told me" and "Thus says the Lord"
The one gives a little bit of glory to the speaker .it is thought
.
The other it is all of God and you stand in His stead and speak what you have heard /or seen.

in Christ

gerald
I believe that we are on the same page.
 
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If knowledge has not ceased and tounges have not ceased and neither has prophecy . Then what is the perfect shall come ? The Lord? who has .
Or the Bride that has not ?
and if it is the Lord who has come and we then need no more prophets . Why then does Paul in Epehsians 2 give ALL the ministrys of God as in Apostles ,prophets ,pastors,teachers, evangelists as given to the church and needed for its perfection
after the Lord has come!?
and if the church accepts Pastors teachers and evangelists as true . Why then not the other two?
This I have never heard reasonably or biblically acceptably explained or resolved .

Therefore I do not accept that there are no REAL Apostles and Prophets . I simply do not have the understanding exactly of what both are .
Having said that .I also recognise there was and is false prophets and apostles parading themselves about and performing their deceiving acts before the church and it seems a lot in the church receive them who come in their own name .
But I will not cast away truth because of anothers errors .
In truth the true pattern of an Apostle has to be PAUL . and while we may not need another Paul .Nevertheless the pattern he laid down ahs to be followed in some measure by any who do call themselves (?) an Apostle .
I have only met one man who by life ministry and doctrine I would possibly call an Apostle. But he denies it an d continues on.

So then will I.

In Christ

gerald
It seems to me that the Scripture is very clear Gerald.

When the "perfect ONE" comes, tongues will cease, prophecy will cease.

Grammatically speaking, we can not make the "perfect one" out to be the Lord. The phrase in the Greek is neuter, which means the object of the context is a THING not a personal pronoun so as to make it the Lord Jesus. Now that can not be explained away or spiritualized.
It is what it is......therefore the only perfect thing it seems has to be the Word of God as found in His written Bible.

As for Apostles, they had to have been personally present or personally commissioned by the Lord Jesus. Since He died 2000 years ago that pretty much disallows anyone today from being an apostle.
There are those who claim to be apostles and prophets by their own word. Others claim it by showing their signs, wonders and miracles. This so-called signs and wonders movement is part of an effort to restore what they understood to be the five-fold ministry described in Ephesians 4:11. The proliferators of the movement claim that these dynamics are what is necessary for the church to have power. In actuality, those who lay claim to this ministry today are operating under a misunderstanding of apostles and prophets of the Bible. The Lord confirmed His signs to the apostles' words to show a transition of authority from Israel and its priesthood to the apostles who were laying down the foundation for the church, a new entity. This unique anointing testified to Israel and to the gentiles a new order of leadership, the demonstration of spiritual authority was transferred to the church Christ body. Becoming aware of what the Bible says about these positions in the early church can help us guard against misleading teachings in the church today.

Scripturally we find that the apostles were all personally chosen by the Lord Jesus. Mt.10:1-4 and in Lk.6:12-16 names the 12 apostles, one of which was chosen for perdition. The 70 as well as the twelve were also trained and sent out. The position of the apostles were not permanently fixed number until after the resurrection (Matt. 19:28-30; Lk. 22:28-34; Jn. 21:15-18). The number 12 then becomes an eternally established number. Jesus referred to this in Mt.19:28, that in the millennium those who have followed him (the apostles) will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. These twelve seem to relate to Israel specifically, while Paul does not.

One of the Biblical requirements for one to be rightly regarded as an apostle were those following Jesus from the time of John’s baptism. They also were to have seen the risen Lord be witnesses of his resurrection.
 
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There is quite a difference between "God just told me" and "Thus says the Lord"
The one gives a little bit of glory to the speaker .it is thought
.
The other it is all of God and you stand in His stead and speak what you have heard /or seen.

in Christ

gerald
The New Test. direction is more about FORTHtelling than it is Foretelling. We need to TEACH what God has said rather than explain what we think someone has said to us. The real problem of course is how does one who is a sinner know it is the God of Creation he is hearing????

In the New Testament, anyone who claimed to be an apostle of Jesus Christ is presumed to have been an eyewitness to the risen Jesus. That is, only men who had seen Jesus alive after his resurrection were qualified to be apostles. Some of the evidence for this conclusion is in certain respects indirect, but the evidence in its totality is reasonably conclusive
 
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I would point out that I agree with Major regarding prophets and apostles. In the bible we are given prophecy about end times and it is complete. Does that mean individuals cannot be warned, sometimes ahead of time, what is coming to them specifically, by the spirit of God? Of course not. But both OT & NT indicate that the test of a prophet is 100% accuracy. And those claiming to be prophets - their average of accuracy - is well below that standard in the modern age. In fact, how would we know a real apostle/prophet in the almighty din the fakes are making? All we can do is keep checking with scripture.

As I said in an earlier post, I don't see the OP as contradicted by scripture - but having seen other posts on other threads made by the same author - it would seem they want to set up practice as a prophet. And out of context scripture, to prove points that appear ridiculous (to me) does nothing to convince me.

For what it's worth - my 2 cents
 
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I would point out that I agree with Major regarding prophets and apostles. In the bible we are given prophecy about end times and it is complete. Does that mean individuals cannot be warned, sometimes ahead of time, what is coming to them specifically, by the spirit of God? Of course not. But both OT & NT indicate that the test of a prophet is 100% accuracy. And those claiming to be prophets - their average of accuracy - is well below that standard in the modern age. In fact, how would we know a real apostle/prophet in the almighty din the fakes are making? All we can do is keep checking with scripture.

As I said in an earlier post, I don't see the OP as contradicted by scripture - but having seen other posts on other threads made by the same author - it would seem they want to set up practice as a prophet. And out of context scripture, to prove points that appear ridiculous (to me) does nothing to convince me.

For what it's worth - my 2 cents
Seems to me that us more like .05 cents than .02.!!!
 
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I do not believe it is enough to simply assert that a person is wrong .Even if they are . But you must also show why they are ,Not only for the sake of anybody else reading this .But expecialy to the person who you say is wrong in matters of prophecy .
So that they may be corrected both in their thinking and instructed in righteousness .Rather than have needless strife and undermines their faith so that they might established on a firmer footing .

in Christ
gerald
Gerald,
I did state I did not agree with the post. The rest of my post was to the others that responded ....... I did not agree with them either.... I continued to say I believe in the fruits of Holy Spirit and that He continues to lead. The whole idea that was then and this is now would make God a liar. He says He is the same yesterday today and forever. As He continues to lead I will follow and trust that He will give me the words and He will edify and glorify Himself. Walking by faith and not by sight is not just words. He is looking for a willing vessel that He can live His life through.


My sweet Lord my loving Savior
I give this life to You
Present myself a willing vessel
You may live Your life through
Take these hands to do Your work
Lead these feet to follow You
Let these eyes see needs of others
Fill this heart to love like You
peter
 
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So who is a greater Prophet than Christ? Are we saying that His work was not complete and needs others to finish it up? I have already posted that the OP prophecy is not NEW. I see it in scripture. Any more than I think the scriptures are just...well words...I don't see Satan/Lucifer/Devil's seed as just bad words. Do you really believe that God needs to do "dueling" miracles, signs and wonders with the copycat Lucifer? Why do you think scripture tells us that Satan will come with miracles and signs and wonders? And yet - the first signs, miracles and wonders and you see a stampede thinking it's of God. No one checks and all seem to ignore that all this was already prophesized.
 
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Gerald,
I did state I did not agree with the post. The rest of my post was to the others that responded ....... I did not agree with them either.... I continued to say I believe in the fruits of Holy Spirit and that He continues to lead. The whole idea that was then and this is now would make God a liar. He says He is the same yesterday today and forever. As He continues to lead I will follow and trust that He will give me the words and He will edify and glorify Himself. Walking by faith and not by sight is not just words. He is looking for a willing vessel that He can live His life through.


My sweet Lord my loving Savior
I give this life to You
Present myself a willing vessel
You may live Your life through
Take these hands to do Your work
Lead these feet to follow You
Let these eyes see needs of others
Fill this heart to love like You
peter
With all due respect to you my brother, I have to say that the quote....."Jesus is the same yesterday, to day and tomorrow"(Heb. 13:8)
may very well be one of the most miss-understood verses in the Scriptures.

We see it used all the time by those who want to believe what God allowed yesterday He will allow today.
Does that mean Jesus will then be crucified yet once again? .........NO!
Does that mean God will tell someone to build another Ark?.........NO!
Does that mean salvation now means we have to keep the law?.....NO!

We tend to pick out something and hang our hats on it because it seems to validate what we want to believe. But if we do that in this case, what do we then do with Hebrews 1:1-2.......
"Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world."

You see, that verse tells us that God does change!!!! What once God's mode of operation changed and now we listen to the Lord Jesus Christ and what He said.

Christ the incarnate Word was with the Father in the beginning before the world was. As God's eternal Son HE was the same in the beginning as He is today and He will be the same tomorrow. His love, His holiness, compassion never change and it is HIM who satisfies and apart from Him there is no abiding peace and joy. HOWEVER, that does not mean that because something was done YESTERDAY it must be accepted as normal today.

Because tongues were spoken by the apostles 2000 years ago in the transition from Law to Grace and from form to Christ, does not mean that is accepted as normal for the believer today. The same thought would apply to healings by "men". Because the apostles healed men then does not mean that a man can heal people today by knocking them to the ground in Jesus name.

Heb. 13:8 then is all about RELATIONSHIPS. Jesus is unchangeable in relationship and He abides the same as always. The love that brought Him to man continues now as it did 2000 years ago and in fact that alone tells us He has CHANGED.

2000 years ago He walked among men....TODAY He sits at the right hand of the Father.

2000 years ago He was the dying Saviour, beaten and killed. TODAY He is our advocate glorified and filled with honor power and glory.
He has CHANGED!

2000 years ago He died on the cross but soon and very soon He is returning as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords to put an end to sin, and the curse and then He will be the JUDGE.
 
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So who is a greater Prophet than Christ? Are we saying that His work was not complete and needs others to finish it up? I have already posted that the OP prophecy is not NEW. I see it in scripture. Any more than I think the scriptures are just...well words...I don't see Satan/Lucifer/Devil's seed as just bad words. Do you really believe that God needs to do "dueling" miracles, signs and wonders with the copycat Lucifer? Why do you think scripture tells us that Satan will come with miracles and signs and wonders? And yet - the first signs, miracles and wonders and you see a stampede thinking it's of God. No one checks and all seem to ignore that all this was already prophesized.
Very correct sister!

Some believers demand signs and wonders and miracles and somehow ignore the Bible prophecy that tells us exactly that that is what the coming religious antichrist will be doing. They demand now what has been declared to be the very proof of the man of sin. THINK about that for a moment!!!

Rev. 13:13
"And HE doeth great WONDERS (Signs) so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men".
 
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GBzone

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Well said!
It seems to me that the Scripture is very clear Gerald.

When the "perfect ONE" comes, tongues will cease, prophecy will cease.

Grammatically speaking, we can not make the "perfect one" out to be the Lord. The phrase in the Greek is neuter, which means the object of the context is a THING not a personal pronoun so as to make it the Lord Jesus. Now that can not be explained away or spiritualized.
It is what it is......therefore the only perfect thing it seems has to be the Word of God as found in His written Bible.

As for Apostles, they had to have been personally present or personally commissioned by the Lord Jesus. Since He died 2000 years ago that pretty much disallows anyone today from being an apostle.
There are those who claim to be apostles and prophets by their own word. Others claim it by showing their signs, wonders and miracles. This so-called signs and wonders movement is part of an effort to restore what they understood to be the five-fold ministry described in Ephesians 4:11. The proliferators of the movement claim that these dynamics are what is necessary for the church to have power. In actuality, those who lay claim to this ministry today are operating under a misunderstanding of apostles and prophets of the Bible. The Lord confirmed His signs to the apostles' words to show a transition of authority from Israel and its priesthood to the apostles who were laying down the foundation for the church, a new entity. This unique anointing testified to Israel and to the gentiles a new order of leadership, the demonstration of spiritual authority was transferred to the church Christ body. Becoming aware of what the Bible says about these positions in the early church can help us guard against misleading teachings in the church today.

Scripturally we find that the apostles were all personally chosen by the Lord Jesus. Mt.10:1-4 and in Lk.6:12-16 names the 12 apostles, one of which was chosen for perdition. The 70 as well as the twelve were also trained and sent out. The position of the apostles were not permanently fixed number until after the resurrection (Matt. 19:28-30; Lk. 22:28-34; Jn. 21:15-18). The number 12 then becomes an eternally established number. Jesus referred to this in Mt.19:28, that in the millennium those who have followed him (the apostles) will sit on 12 thrones judging the 12 tribes of Israel. These twelve seem to relate to Israel specifically, while Paul does not.

One of the Biblical requirements for one to be rightly regarded as an apostle were those following Jesus from the time of John’s baptism. They also were to have seen the risen Lord be witnesses of his resurrection.
I was simply presenting questions for clarification as to what is the perfect that has come.
It clearly was not the Lord for reasons I had already stated .
The Bride then for she too must be perfected .
You suggested the Bible or the scriptures.
I believe you would need to prove that and can only do so by more than you presented .

I would suggest it is more than likely to be the Bride of Christ .
For the gifts are for the churches edification and the ministers of God for its perfection .
For both the gifts and the ministers are in that context the church or the Bride .

When the church or Bride of Christ is perfected there will be no need for the gifts for they shall pass or prophecy .
But those ministers of God are not hirelings in it for the money but are called of God made by God and enabled by God and do minister in and for the Love of God .

You do not or have not answered why ;given the list in Ephesians, Paul counts Prophets and Apostles as part of that body of ministers who are called to minister to the Church are all PRESENT but the first two .
Is it perchance that the churches present ministers of pastors and teachers and evangelists do not wish to see or have some one in higher authority than they? (For the record I am NOT talking about prelates who call themselves apostles in direct link to Peter )Im talking about spiritual authority.
But whether they do or do not and for whatever reason they do not recognise any as such . I believe they do exist. They are simply not the premadonnas parading on the church stage today or carried about on mens shoulders dressed in white and full of double talk .

As to the number 12 . I would agree that if the Lord needed only 12 to change the world .Then he does not need more than 12 today.
was not Paul the Apostle to the gentiles?
Yet he was called of the Lord "out of time" . He also spoke of things that the Lord said the others did not . "it is far better to give than to receive"(?)

Yet his gospel was not of men . and the other Apostles "added nothing to him" or needed to correct him. For he spoke the truth.

His knowledge of scripture as Saul of Tarsus was probably greater than them all . But not with any understanding despite Hebrew being his mother tongue . and despite the fact that the Old Testament "was able to make you wise unto salvation" He clearly despite his great knowledge of scripture was not saved until the illumination of the Holy Spirit gavc him a knowledge of Christ that made all his 'qualifications ' worth nothing and he counted "as dung".
I would argue that those three years" in the Arabian desert " was where he was transformed by the renewal of his mind and all that scripture which he knew by intellect was; by the Holy Spirit, put in its proper order and place and context in the light and illumination of Gods perspective of scripture .
Thus he was an Apostle called and made by God and not elected or made by men.

ALL men of God are made by God . But Ministers of God if it can be said expecially so .
For even as Moses was challenged as to his calling and ministry. He did not defend himself being the meekest of all men . Not like these popenjays who demand blind obedience to their supposed authority .
I would suggest the church still needs such men . Who do not and will not "lord it over the church " as after the "Nicolaitans "

In Christ
gerald