Questions On The Book Of Revelations

Rusty said:
Well...this post seems to answer my question below:



This latest post sounds very much like you have made up your mind, as you still have not remarked about my post on dual applications.

I have a hard time with folks initially saying they are uncertain and then soon after sounding very much certain. I think it best to come clean at the start.
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Yes Rusty...........the prophets always had a "short view & a long view".

Short was for the immediate and the long was for the future.
 
followerofchrist72 said:
See what makes me sway more towards the Preterist views is the literal and spiritual views. The descriptions of the scripture is based in the generation in which Jesus and the disciples lived. Josephus writes about the War of the Jews when the temple was destroyed. Signs and wonders in heaven. Heaven opened up and seeing chariots and soldiers running around among the clouds and all cities of Palestine. In Revelations Jesus tells John in the very first paragragh Revelations 1:1 things must shortly(quickly, swiftly) take place.

The Lord told Daniel to seal up the book until the time of the end. The Lord told John in Revelation 1:3 for the time is near. See why would He tell Daniel to seal these things and tell John that this must shortly take place, if they weren't going to happen. I believe that all has been fulfilled. The temple hasn't been rebuilt for 1943 years. Why would they need to rebuild it again? Jesus fulfilled the Law. There is no more need for sacrifice.

It is the writings like this from the scribe or writers of the time of tribulation in Israel that make me go hmmmmm.

Josephus
(A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).


“A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.” (rendered in Chilton)

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian

"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).
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Josephus was a historian and none of his writings are inspired and should not be considered as such.
 
Major said:
Josephus was a historian and none of his writings are inspired and should not be considered as such.
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So we should throw out the Book of Jude that quotes the Book of Enoch then, right? I am just saying if it is referenced in text that is canon, why wouldn't it be included.

Who decides this stuff? The councel of Nicea? King James I?

IMO the scriptures have been removed for a reason we don't undetstand. It confuses the masses and it seems to be used for molding them to discredit G_d. Enoch was taken by the Lord. He did not see death. I would consider it one of the more important books written...
 
followerofchrist72 said:
So we should throw out the Book of Jude that quotes the Book of Enoch then, right? I am just saying if it is referenced in text that is canon, why wouldn't it be included.

Who decides this stuff? The councel of Nicea? King James I?

IMO the scriptures have been removed for a reason we don't undetstand. It confuses the masses and it seems to be used for molding them to discredit G_d. Enoch was taken by the Lord. He did not see death. I would consider it one of the more important books written...
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THey were not removed.........they were never added my friend.

Have you read the book of Enoch. It is an obviouse fraud and contradicts all other Biblical accounts.

A born-again Christian who has been reading the Bible for several years only needs to read the "Book of Enoch" briefly to know that something is very wrong. There are so many obvious flaws with this alleged missing book of God's Word. It is clear to me that someone copied from the Bible and wrote this garbage. The same type of mumbo-jumbo can be readily observed in the Qur'an. I do NOT believe that Enoch, who lived during the time period of Genesis, wrote this manuscript. Evidently the King James translators didn't either, and for good reason. The Devil is working relentlessly to corrupt God's Word, as he has been doing since the Garden of Eden, when he caused Eve to doubt God's Word. Satan is so shrewd that he even tried to confuse our Lord by misinterpreting the Scriptures in Matthew 4:1-10. In these apostate times, the Word of God is under attack like never before. The reason why is simple... if Satan can pervert the Word of God into a lie, then he can control the masses!

From Enoch
9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’
10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices
I heard in those days.

The Bible never mentions an angel named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. What blasphemy! That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches.

We read in 1st Timothy 2:5 that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and men, not some angel named Phanuel... "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Repentance is strictly between a man and Jesus Christ alone.

Only Jesus died for our sins, and shed His blood to pay for them (1st Peter 1:18-19); therefore, we must be diligent to guard and defend against LIARS and imposters who would lead people to believe otherwise. 1st John 2:22 clearly indicts all Christ-deniers as LIARS, guilty before God.
 
Major said:
THey were not removed.........they were never added my friend.

Have you read the book of Enoch. It is an obviouse fraud and contradicts all other Biblical accounts.

A born-again Christian who has been reading the Bible for several years only needs to read the "Book of Enoch" briefly to know that something is very wrong. There are so many obvious flaws with this alleged missing book of God's Word. It is clear to me that someone copied from the Bible and wrote this garbage. The same type of mumbo-jumbo can be readily observed in the Qur'an. I do NOT believe that Enoch, who lived during the time period of Genesis, wrote this manuscript. Evidently the King James translators didn't either, and for good reason. The Devil is working relentlessly to corrupt God's Word, as he has been doing since the Garden of Eden, when he caused Eve to doubt God's Word. Satan is so shrewd that he even tried to confuse our Lord by misinterpreting the Scriptures in Matthew 4:1-10. In these apostate times, the Word of God is under attack like never before. The reason why is simple... if Satan can pervert the Word of God into a lie, then he can control the masses!

From Enoch
9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’
10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices
I heard in those days.

The Bible never mentions an angel named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. What blasphemy! That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches.

We read in 1st Timothy 2:5 that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and men, not some angel named Phanuel... "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Repentance is strictly between a man and Jesus Christ alone.

Only Jesus died for our sins, and shed His blood to pay for them (1st Peter 1:18-19); therefore, we must be diligent to guard and defend against LIARS and imposters who would lead people to believe otherwise. 1st John 2:22 clearly indicts all Christ-deniers as LIARS, guilty before God.
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It's funny you posted that, because I just got done reading that online word for word.

I believe in the Book of Enoch. It explains a lot. May I ask if you read the Book of Enoch?
 
At the time that the Bishops of the church had the various councils to compile scripture there were literally hundreds of odd parchments, scrolls and books in existance that someone or other claimed were holy and inspired. The councils tossed out all that "did not pass muster" for whatever reason. I have read many of those in my studies, and in my opinion the councils were correct in their estimations (we expect that they were divinely inspired). The Book of Enoch, though fun reading, is a bit weird, the chalkidri (dragons of the sun), warehouses of snow, and the "pen of quick writing" (God uses a ballpoint pen!) are all amusing though a bit absurd. The "Infancies" have Jesus commanding dragons, turning boys into goats, making the dead speak, and whitening clothes better than Tide.
 
followerofchrist72 said:
I believed the Temple was going to be rebuilt. I never heard anything about their 2520 year punishment. Seems like a very odd punishment sentence. Do you have proof of this number?
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Israel was a nation in 606BC, but they yet again turned away from God, so God punished them by allowing the nation to be overrun and people enslaved. Babylon finally finished the job in 587BC and destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. The Jews were held prisoner for 70 Jewish years, 69 years in our calendar, when they were released by King Cyrus the Persian King who conquered Babylon. In 537BC , they were told to return to their lands and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem

During the enslavement by Babylon, the prophet Ezekiel comes along and gives this message and prophecy to the Jews.

. Ezekiel 4:4-6 “Now lie on your left side and place the sins of Israel on yourself. You are to bear their sins for the number of days you lie there on your side. You will bear Israel’s sins for 390 days – one day for each year of their sin. After that, turn over and lie on your right side for 40 days – one day for each year of Judah’s sin.”
.
God is basically saying, you will now be punished for 430 biblical (Jewish) years, and you will not have a country or nation again until this time passes however, as you already been enslaved, for 70 years, this is reduced to 360 years, and you must repent for all your sins. Disaster, the Jews who returned in 537BC did not do this.

So according to the prophecy, Israel should have emerged as a nation in 176 BC, but they did not, they were continually occupied and ruled over by Persians, Greeks and Romans, finally in AD70 the Romans destroyed the Temple and scattered the Jewish population and put most into slavery around the Empire.

So what went wrong? Well if you look in Leviticus you get the idea that if Gods chosen went against him, he would punish them 7 times over.

26:18 “And if in spite of this, you still disobey me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.”

26:21“If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins.”

26:23-24“And if you fail to learn a lesson from this and continue your hostility toward me, then I myself will be hostile toward you, and I will personally strike you seven times over for your sins.”

26;27-28“If after this you still refuse to listen and still remain hostile toward me, then I will give full vent to my hostility. I will punish you seven times over for your sins.”

The punishment for disobeying the order to repent in 537BC resulted in a new punishment and increase of the punishment of being enslaved and not able to have a nation, by 7 times, which now increases the time from 360 years to 2520 years.

This is of course Jewish years which remain constant through history, it all works out to 1948 in our calendar.
 
Rusty said:
Well, followerofchrist72...after 3 attempts to get you to respond to my post on dual application of prophecy, and seeing that you would rather prop up rejected pseudo-Apocryphal books, I feel my ideas ignored. No biggy...So I will leave you in more capable and tolerant hands and pray the Master will guide you out of the fog of mystical angels and sun dragons and plant your feet on solid ground.
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I didn't disrespect you, but you are cold towards me. I wasn't ignoring you. I respect what you are talking about and I do understand the dual application of prophecy. The Bible talks about many things seem hard to understand. Angels are spoken of in Bible and scripture, and so are dragons. How about unicorns too? Dragons symbolize a serpent, and unicorn symbolizes a wild oxen. Unless one researches the word in the Hebrew/Greek dictionary one won't fully understand and think it is fables and non-sense. 2nd Timothy 2:15 says:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I don't think I am in a fog. I can only hope it is a cloud that surounds me like in Isaiah 44:22 which says:22 I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, And like a cloud, your sins. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.”
 
Agricola said:
Israel was a nation in 606BC, but they yet again turned away from God, so God punished them by allowing the nation to be overrun and people enslaved. Babylon finally finished the job in 587BC and destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. The Jews were held prisoner for 70 Jewish years, 69 years in our calendar, when they were released by King Cyrus the Persian King who conquered Babylon. In 537BC , they were told to return to their lands and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem

During the enslavement by Babylon, the prophet Ezekiel comes along and gives this message and prophecy to the Jews.

. Ezekiel 4:4-6 “Now lie on your left side and place the sins of Israel on yourself. You are to bear their sins for the number of days you lie there on your side. You will bear Israel’s sins for 390 days – one day for each year of their sin. After that, turn over and lie on your right side for 40 days – one day for each year of Judah’s sin.”
.
God is basically saying, you will now be punished for 430 biblical (Jewish) years, and you will not have a country or nation again until this time passes however, as you already been enslaved, for 70 years, this is reduced to 360 years, and you must repent for all your sins. Disaster, the Jews who returned in 537BC did not do this.

So according to the prophecy, Israel should have emerged as a nation in 176 BC, but they did not, they were continually occupied and ruled over by Persians, Greeks and Romans, finally in AD70 the Romans destroyed the Temple and scattered the Jewish population and put most into slavery around the Empire.

So what went wrong? Well if you look in Leviticus you get the idea that if Gods chosen went against him, he would punish them 7 times over.

26:18 “And if in spite of this, you still disobey me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.”

26:21“If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins.”

26:23-24“And if you fail to learn a lesson from this and continue your hostility toward me, then I myself will be hostile toward you, and I will personally strike you seven times over for your sins.”

26;27-28“If after this you still refuse to listen and still remain hostile toward me, then I will give full vent to my hostility. I will punish you seven times over for your sins.”

The punishment for disobeying the order to repent in 537BC resulted in a new punishment and increase of the punishment of being enslaved and not able to have a nation, by 7 times, which now increases the time from 360 years to 2520 years.

This is of course Jewish years which remain constant through history, it all works out to 1948 in our calendar.
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I understand your 360 years times 7 which brings it to 2520. The 1948 doesn't fit in the equation that I can see. Hmmmm
 
followerofchrist72 said:
Exactly, I am rocking back and forth on the Preterist views and what the churches believe. The scales more on the Preterist views. I got attacked for asking about it at another forum and got banned from it. I am doing nothing different in here then I did in there. Makes me sad.
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With all due respect and honesty..........I feel like you had already decided what you believe and really did not start this thread to learn but to further your agenda of Preterism.

That is of course your right to do so.

May the Lord bless you my friend and I do hope your eyes will opened to the truth of God's Word but I feel this is not productive at this point.
 
followerofchrist72 said:
I know churches teach that the book of Revelation has yet to be fulfilled. I seem to be swaying more that parts of it already happened in 70 A.D. I read the accounts of Josephus which point to more of tribulation within Israel and the lands surrounding it fulfill John's writings.

I wanted other input of fellow Christians. Why they believe it is yet to come, or still needs to be finished.
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OK, so if you are of a mind to, take things one step at a time.
Rev 1:1,2. The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
The point to note here is not so much the "things that must soon take place" or that might have already happened, rather "The revelation of Jesus Christ.."
Can you see that the Book of Revelation is about Jesus Christ and not about prophesy as such?
Sure prophesy is in there, but it is a revealing of Jesus Christ..............I mean that is what it says, right?
 
Rusty said:
I second this entire post and see no effort on my part will sway what you already believe FOC72.
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This is a forum to talk about Jesus. I have not hidden my thoughts or views from this post. I said I was swaying more towards the preterism views that Revelation of John has already been fulfilled. Daniel spoke of this time and sealed it. John wrote about it for their generation and revealed the things that Daniel had to seal up.

Still no one has told me why they believe the book has yet to be fulfilled. I have said why I feel it has been fulfilled. I was honest saying. I feel like I am getting pushed away because of what I am seeing. I am trying to let the Lord teach me and guide me to all truth.
 
followerofchrist72 said:
This is a forum to talk about Jesus. I have not hidden my thoughts or views from this post. I said I was swaying more towards the preterism views that Revelation of John has already been fulfilled. Daniel spoke of this time and sealed it. John wrote about it for their generation and revealed the things that Daniel had to seal up.

Still no one has told me why they believe the book has yet to be fulfilled. I have said why I feel it has been fulfilled. I was honest saying. I feel like I am getting pushed away because of what I am seeing. I am trying to let the Lord teach me and guide me to all truth.
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Now that just isn't the case is it my brother?

You have been shown how wrong and how satanic is the book of Enoch and your responce was........"I believe it".

IF, IF Preterism was true, and all the events of prophecy took place in 70 AD............Where was Jesus?????

Preterism says that Nero was the Antichrist. But Nero wasn’t the Antichrist because he committed suicide instead of being cast alive into the Lake of Fire (Revelation 19:20). Nero didn’t track all buying and selling. And Nero didn’t force people to take the Mark of the Beast.

Preterists say Israel’s religious leaders were the False Prophet. But Israel’s religious leaders didn’t build a statue of the Antichrist. Israel’s religious leaders didn’t make that statue speak. Israel’s religious leaders didn’t make the Jews commit idolatry by worshipping the statue. And Israel’s religious leaders didn’t get thrown alive into the Lake of Fire with the Antichrist.

Preterists say the final world government was the Roman Empire. But the Roman Empire was the legs of iron on Nebuchadnezzar’s statue not the feet of iron mixed with clay (Daniel 2). The Second Coming of Jesus will be in the days of the feet of iron mixed with clay not in the day of the legs of iron.

Preterists say the Second Coming of Jesus was a spiritual coming that took place in 70 A.D. and no one could see it. But the Bible says every eye will see Jesus when He comes back (Revelation 1:7). Two angels said Jesus will come back the same way He went away which was visibly because people could see Him (Acts 1:9-11).

Over and over again, Jesus and others told us to watch for the Second Coming, but watching for the Second Coming of Jesus is meaningless, if Jesus has already come back. Watching for the Second Coming is meaningless if is a spiritual return that no one can see.

The Bible says so many people will be killed at the Battle of Armageddon when Jesus comes back the blood will flow up to the horses bridles for almost 200 miles. That doesn’t fit with an invisible return that no one can see. Jesus said the sun will be darkened, the moon won’t shine, the stars will fall from heaven, everyone on earth will mourn, the lost will be removed from the earth, the sheep and goat nations will be judged, etc., but none of that happened in 70 A.D. (Matt. 24:29-30; 13:41-42, 49-50; 25:31-46).

Preterists say the destruction of Jerusalem and the persecution of the Church in 70 A.D. was the Tribulation Period. The Church won’t be here during the Tribulation Period. There was no seven-year covenant in 70 A.D. There weren’t enough people on earth for a 200 million man army to invade Israel in 70 A.D. The Euphrates River didn’t dry up. The Two Witnesses didn’t lie in the street for three and one-half days while the whole world watched. Babylon wasn’t destroyed by fire in one hour. Jesus didn’t rescue Israel at a Second Coming in 70 A.D., etc. (Rev. 9:16; 16:12; 13:11-18; 11:9).

Those are just a few IF's that you must consider IF you believe in Preterism. Now, do you care to give a BIBLE answer to these IF"S ?????
 
With all do respect Major, I am not here to disrespect your views. I have been doing some research on this subject and I don't know all the answers to it yet, but there are things in history that don't line up. I said I am leaning on the Preterist views. Believing all has been fulfilled which was promised. I am researching about Alexander the Great and Cleopatra (her name means: Glory of the father).

Alexander the Great was a conqueror and went about conquering the world. There are ties between King Philip II (Alexander's dad) who was married to a Cleopatra, and Alexander the Great. Julius Caeser and Mark Anthony had ties to Cleopatra. I know they say there are seven Cleopatra's, and I have to look into it more. I find it interesting that Cleopatra spoke 9 different languages fluently. She was also Mecadonian/Greek like King Philip II and Alexander.

Here is a mural of Alexander the Great. Look at the colors of his uniform Fiery red, Hyacinth Blue, and sulfur yellow. Revelation 9:17 says: 17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.
alexander.jpg
reference website... http://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2011/07/on-trail-of-alexander-great.html

I know we have been fed lies all throughout our lives and misled. I served my country as a soldier thinking I was being honorable and defending my nation. Little did I know then how corrupt it is. I signed over my soul for 8 years, got a honorable discharge, and I am a good law biding citizen. What we are briefed as soldiers, isn't what the world is told. What we saw, isn't what they show on TV. Whether it is history, news on TV or in the newspaper, wars and rumors of war, holiday origins, church timelines, and fictional characters we tell are kids are real like Santa Claus, the Easter Bunny, tooth fairy, and so on. All of it is twisted and hidden. The truth is out there we have to seek it.

Have you ever lied to your children? I have... I admit it. We are a product of our environment. I am doing what is written.. Renewing of the mind, being as like a child by questioning, getting into the meat of the Word, because I have been wheened off the milk.

I am showing you I am not perfect. So where does the lie stop and the truth and honesty begin? Our human nature is to follow, like a sheep, to be guided. I am just striving for honesty and truth. I know Jesus is the Truth I am the child always asking why, and not taking any man's word for it as fact without checking out the story myself. That is just my nature of trying to transform. Leaning on the Lord instead of men. Seeing the world for what it is... Corrupt, lies, greed, cheating, thieves, killing and devouring each other for their own selfish needs. I am not saying everybody is like that. I am learning to see what the Lord sees. Molding me to be more like Him so to speak. He is the Rabboni (teacher/master).

I take the Bible seriously, researching and trying to fit the puzzle pieces together is all. I want to devote my time to Him in finding the truth in all things. When I am told I am wrong and how satanic my beliefs is makes me want to look harder. Where is the love when someone insult's? I say this in love, but I rebuke your statement about what I am being shown in the book of Enoch is wrong and satanic.

I feel like the truth is hidden so we may find Him true in all that has been written. I see the truth sets us free. I pray for the people who are blind and being led by the blind. That the Lord may get some dirt from the ground and spit in it and make some slave and put it on their eyes, so they may cleanse it with water to they can see the world for what it is.
 
FOC said:
I feel like the truth is hidden so we may find Him true in all that has been written. I see the truth sets us free. I pray for the people who are blind and being led by the blind. That the Lord may get some dirt from the ground and spit in it and make some slave and put it on their eyes, so they may cleanse it with water to they can see the world for what it is.
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So you are ignoring my posts just as you have been ignoring Rusty's. Fine go right ahead...that won't stop myself or others posting our observations of your posts. That said, You are advocating that you alone are on some sort of holy crusade to uncover hidden truth.
Jesus came in the flesh so as to reveal truth to mankind. There is nothing hidden from the child of God, all has been revealed by Jesus. Then people go looking for what is not there, saying that there is still truth to be uncovered, they are denying the very one who purchased them with His very blood.
They say the Church universal is corrupt and deceitful, telling lies and covering up the truth. Then people go looking for what is not there, saying that there is still truth to be uncovered, they are denying the very one who purchased them with His very blood.
Who then is the accuser of the Brethren? Is it not the Satan?
Rev12:10. And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God.
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Who is it who is the power behind the Church? Is it not the Lord Jesus Christ Himself?
Mat_16:18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
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The gates of hell can not prevail. Neither will lies and unrighteous criticisms prevail in the long run.

You say "I feel like the truth is hidden so we may find Him true in all that has been written. I see the truth sets us free."
True discipleship is not about 'feelings'. True disciple ship is about obedience......I'll say it again because it is truth..Jesus' truth...True discipleship is about obedience.
Now as to Jude and his mention of Enoch.........Jude has made reference to a lot of material that comes from pseudepigraphic literature, not just the book of Enoch. this literature was mostly known to the people of his day, and therefore spoke to them in familiar terms. Just as Jesus taught spiritual truth by using sheep, lanterns, fig trees, wheat and so on, things familiar to the people He was teaching, Jude used literature familiar to his audience in order to communicate his message. that does not mean that the book of Enoch should be admitted to the canon of Scripture any more than should sheep and fig trees be.
It is in the hope that someone will consider what I post and not be led off on a wild goose chase for 'truth' that is not there, or not helpful that I post this.

FOC you go right ahead and ignore this post since it does not cater to your agenda.
 
The dates of Philip's multiple marriages and the names of some of his wives are contested. Below is the order of marriages offered by Athenaeus, 13.557b–e:
She is in no way related to Cleopatra of Egypt.

FOC - I have already listed the reasons that the Preterist view is false, why waste your time and thought?
 
calvin said:
FOC said:
So you are ignoring my posts just as you have been ignoring Rusty's. Fine go right ahead...that won't stop myself or others posting our observations of your posts. That said, You are advocating that you alone are on some sort of holy crusade to uncover hidden truth.
Jesus came in the flesh so as to reveal truth to mankind. There is nothing hidden from the child of God, all has been revealed by Jesus. Then people go looking for what is not there, saying that there is still truth to be uncovered, they are denying the very one who purchased them with His very blood.
They say the Church universal is corrupt and deceitful, telling lies and covering up the truth. Then people go looking for what is not there, saying that there is still truth to be uncovered, they are denying the very one who purchased them with His very blood.
Who then is the accuser of the Brethren? Is it not the Satan?

Who is it who is the power behind the Church? Is it not the Lord Jesus Christ Himself?

The gates of hell can not prevail. Neither will lies and unrighteous criticisms prevail in the long run.

You say "I feel like the truth is hidden so we may find Him true in all that has been written. I see the truth sets us free."
True discipleship is not about 'feelings'. True disciple ship is about obedience......I'll say it again because it is truth..Jesus' truth...True discipleship is about obedience.
Now as to Jude and his mention of Enoch.........Jude has made reference to a lot of material that comes from pseudepigraphic literature, not just the book of Enoch. this literature was mostly known to the people of his day, and therefore spoke to them in familiar terms. Just as Jesus taught spiritual truth by using sheep, lanterns, fig trees, wheat and so on, things familiar to the people He was teaching, Jude used literature familiar to his audience in order to communicate his message. that does not mean that the book of Enoch should be admitted to the canon of Scripture any more than should sheep and fig trees be.
It is in the hope that someone will consider what I post and not be led off on a wild goose chase for 'truth' that is not there, or not helpful that I post this.

FOC you go right ahead and ignore this post since it does not cater to your agenda.
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First, I would like to say I don't know all the answers, as I stated before. That is why I am seeking them. I came into this world alone and I am leaving it alone. SO why wouldn't I be alone on my walk in finding the truth in all things? I guess I am lone on what I seek, which is okay. Right??? I don't doubt Jesus is the Lord and He died for our sins. His blood covers us. Jesus came for salvation and to fulfill the law. Being our last and FINAL sacrifice so that we may live with Him. I do believe that we must walk according to what He teaches.

So why is it wrong to seek answers? I mean no disrespect to you Calvin, Major, or Rusty. If I didn't answer all your questions, could possibly mean I don't know all the answers as I have stated before. Hench me searching for answers, not to disprove or not believe in Jesus, but to figure out why the churches teach what they do about the revelation of John.

I am trying to see the big picture of what was going on in the time of Jesus, the disciples and their writings. Much like a detective at a crime scene. The evidence is there, but it is up to us to unravel the truth of the events. Where is the harm in that? You have to take everything in account and all that is written is evidence leading up to the event.

calvin said:
OK, so if you are of a mind to, take things one step at a time.
Rev 1:1,2. The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
The point to note here is not so much the "things that must soon take place" or that might have already happened, rather "The revelation of Jesus Christ.."
Can you see that the Book of Revelation is about Jesus Christ and not about prophesy as such?
Sure prophesy is in there, but it is a revealing of Jesus Christ..............I mean that is what it says, right?
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Yes, Revelation is about Christ and the judgement on the earth, in which many teach that it is still to come. The reason why I am on this subject of Revelation is to understand why the churches teach it as a future event.When I read the scriptures and Revelation it is all in the tense of their times. I am using the current definition of the word soon for you since it is used in today's tense the NKJV. There are two definitions separate definitions below from two different sources.

soon

/so͞on/

Adverb
  1. In or after a short time: "he'll be home soon".
  2. Early: "it was too soon to know".
Synonyms
shortly - early - presently - anon - before long

soon

[soon] Show IPA
adverb, soon·er, soon·est.
1.
within a short period after this or that time, event, etc.: We shall know soon after he calls.
2.
before long; in the near future; at an early date: Let's leave soon.
3.
promptly or quickly: He came as soon as he could.
4.
readily or willingly: I would as soon walk as ride.
5.
early in a period of time; before the time specified is much advanced: soon at night; soon in the evening.
 
Glomung said:
The dates of Philip's multiple marriages and the names of some of his wives are contested. Below is the order of marriages offered by Athenaeus, 13.557b–e:
She is in no way related to Cleopatra of Egypt.


FOC - I have already listed the reasons that the Preterist view is false, why waste your time and thought?
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So because you showed me means it is true? I need to research the proof of these Cleopatra's. Each individually. Looking for a history of them if they are renown. I have that list already, but I have yet to delve into it fully. One book I have right now is written by Stacy Schiff. Reading and research takes a lot of time. Years, not days.

Here is an example of what I mean. What does Armageddon mean? In greek it means Mount Megiddo. Also my name is Steven in english. In spanish it is Esteban. Below is a list of my names from different nationalities which still mean Steven. This proves my point.

 
OK, so the definitions you have posted pretty much agree with the Greek 'tachos'.
'Soon' is a relative thing though....If we look at things from our time perspective soon might mean tomorrow or next week. If we view soon from the Lord's perspective it could mean in five thousand years or it could mean tomorrow.
In trying to fit Revelation into any time frame, consider the opening of the sixth seal :
Rev 6:12 When he opened the sixth seal, I looked, and behold, there was a great earthquake, and the sun became black as sackcloth, the full moon became like blood,
Rev 6:13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth as the fig tree sheds its winter fruit when shaken by a gale.
Rev 6:14 The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.
Rev 6:15 Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains,
Rev 6:16 calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb,
Rev 6:17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"
Ask..."has this happened?" if yes, then what are you doing here!!?
If No, then we need to modify our understanding of 'soon' to fit the facts as we experience them.
Chapter six ends with the Earth pretty well washed up and no scope for a tomorrow, yet there are another sixteen chapters to wade through. To my mind, chapter six is rather conclusive of the fact that Revelation has not yet run to the end.
You wanna tell me that Chapter six has already happened? OK, I'm sure you don't, so why not dismiss all thoughts of Preterist thinking.
Whatever we believe has to fit with the whole of scripture.
There are some things still to be understood and I don't mean to stifle honest inquiry or study, but then too I would advocate studying for worthwhile truth rather than secondary issues.
One lamentable truth that is revealed in Revelation is that despite the Lord's long suffering, and merciful judgment, sinful mankind will not repent of his sinful ways.
As Christians we need to learn from Revelation just what a perilous and precarious position mankind is in.
The Lord will execute judgment on an evil world of man. The very fact that we are told that people do not repent after the various judgments is declaring to us...to everyone that the Lord is looking for people to repent.....He not just beating up on them out of spite.
2 Pet 3:8 But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
2 Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
So, we need to study as best we can in the Lord's time frame not ours. We need to be encouraged to urge people to repent while there is still time left on the clock.
On working within the Lord's time frame, consider this:
Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
Luke 4:19 to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."
Luke 4:20 And he rolled up the scroll and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all in the synagogue were fixed on him.
Luke 4:21 And he began to say to them, "Today this Scripture has been fulfilled in your hearing."
So...was the the year of the Lord's favor just sometime around AD 30? Or are we living within that year of the Lord's favor?
I don't believe Revelation was intended to lead us away from searching out the the things of the Lord.....please consider.
 
Steven, it does not prove ANY point. Providing a list of dialectic variations of the name Stephen is MEANINGLESS.
Digging through history to find gals named Cleopatra is just as pointless as looking through the telephone book for boys named John.

So because you showed me means it is true?

NO, because it is true I showed it to you. Do you grasp the difference?
 
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