Questions On The Book Of Revelations

C. Also no other temple has been built since Jesus died for us all on the cross. Also the tenses used in Revelations 1:7 which says:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.
Do you realise that the Jews were only 500 odd years into thier 2520 year punishment which started with the Babylonian enslavement? That punishment ended in our calendar year of 1948, which is exactly when Israel became a self ruling nation again. God did not permit the new Temple to be built during this time, the time for the construction of the Temple, is not that far away. Everything has been made , from the musical instruments, priests robes and all the fixtures and fittings, all they are waiting for is the go ahead to build again.

The general consensus is that the Antichrist will be revealed with the building of the Temple. This man will bring about true peace in middle east, this will also include the Muslims allowing the Jews to build the Temple, the Jews will see him as Messiah, thus begins the final phase before Christ's return

Another question for you, has Christ been seen in the clouds by every eye on this planet? NO. That is a future prophecy, it has yet to happen, this is CHrists return, he has not returned yet.
 
I believed the Temple was going to be rebuilt. I never heard anything about their 2520 year punishment. Seems like a very odd punishment sentence. Do you have proof of this number? Just curious.

I am going to vear a little off track, but many people don't realize that they are being bombared with lies, hidden agenda, hidden symbols of the secret societies to still, kill and destroy the followers of Jesus( not saying in physical sense, but spiritual). Occult means: secret, hidden, concealed, eclipsed. These secret societies have sheeps clothing on and they have infilterated religions, politics, and media. They claim to be benevolent, but that is a front to what is hidden behind the dark closed doors.

Narrow is the gate and very few find it. I went to a church that fed a lot of milk. Most churches on TV are entertaining the masses and not feeding them. It is a business, so the more customers they have, the more they can sell you Jesus with their books, tapes, and gift shops. Some like the one I used to attend have a concession stand, or coffee house inside. The churches have logos like a business, and have employees, and volunteers. 2nd Timothy 4:3-4 says:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables.

If you were to define yourself as an individual church described in the book of Revelations which one would you be? The Loveless Church, the persecuted church, the corrupt church, the dead church, the faithful church, or the lukewarm church...
 
From V23, I feel justified in asking to whom did these graveyard truants belong?

It's right there in context...Matthew 27:52,54

and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

So they were saints that witnessed....sorry no roster is available or important.

Now, I'm sorry...but I cannot see this as a zombie-earthquake rumor. I don't see God operating or recording that way.
 
I was going to post this earlier, but the web site is a bit fuzzy-cold.
From a Hebrew interlinear.
Isa 26:19 "they shall live ones being dead of you carcase of me they shall rise awake you and jubilant you ones tabenacling of soil that nightmist of lights that nightmist of you and land healers she is casting"
The King James gang can be forgiven for strugling to make sense of that lot. I took the above from:
http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/Hebrew_Index.htm
Well Rusty it seems we are never going to be on the same page on this one so anyway we have both given some food for thought...yes?
 
Well...If you can ignore Matthews' record and suggest it was a "confusion" as per you idea here....
...
bodily resurrection would not have taken place before the resurrection of Jesus. It seems the most probable explanation therefore would be that the earthquake ripped open some graves and this we read being eyewitness accounts by several people compiled into the gospel account has some confusion of facts.
...I suggest you are not looking at the Matthew verse very carefully.

It says:

53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Your time sequence is off, it would seem.
 
Here is my question... Why would the Lord wait nearly 2000 years to finalize the scripture? The Tribulation was against the Nation of Israel almost 2000 years ago. Jesus was the last sacrifical lamb. No more temple. We are the church as individuals, together we make the body of Christ. Many will decieve by false teachers and prophets until the earth is no more.

So explain Matthew 27:50-54 which says: 50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.54 So when the centurion and those with him, who were guarding Jesus, saw the earthquake and the things that had happened, they feared greatly, saying, “Truly this was the Son of God!”

A resurrection of the dead that went around in the holy city and appeared to many... Sounds like His words are being fulfilled in the time of Christ. Earthquakes, loud voice of Christ as He yeilded up His spirit, graves opened and the resurrection of the the body of the saints, veil in the temple torn from top to bottom going into the Holy of Holies.

WHY??????

Because HE IS GOD and can and will do as He pleases!!!!!

He is putting off the Tribulation so as to allow as many as possible to come to Christ and be saved!!

That was NOT the 1st Resurrection my Brother........It was Jesus taking the spirits in Paradise with Him to heaqven and then giving them the gifts they earned here.
 
Clean start... I said in the beginning that I know churches teach that the book of Revelation has yet to be fulfilled. I seem to be swaying more that parts of it already happened in 70 A.D. The Preterism view more or less. Meaning all was fulfilled around the time of Jesus and in the Generation of his disciples.

With researching and reading the scripture and other historians, and non-canon scripture like the Book of Enoch. Things fall into place. Also no other temple has been built since Jesus died for us all on the cross. Also the tenses used in Revelations 1:7 which says:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

I believe revelation was written before the destruction of the Temple. Daniel wrote it and sealed it, while John REVEALED it to the masses.

My dear brother! The book of Enoch can not and should not even be considered.

It is not a valid book to base any real understanding in.

Consider, biblically, Azazel is the Hebrew word found only in Leviticus 16 for the scapegoat in Leviticus 16:8, 10, and 26. In the Book of Enoch, it is the name of two fallen angels (see 69:2-3), one of which is attributed to revealing heavenly secrets to men (9:6-7), and who, taught men to make swords, knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures.

This is not Biblical teaching!!!!!!

Genesis 4:22 reveals it was Tubal-Cain who was "an instructor of every craftsman in bronze and iron." But, the real fallacy is found in this next statement, supposedly by the Lord (10:4):
"And the whole earth has been corrupted through the works that were taught by Azazel: to him ascribe all sin."​
God says "all sin" goes back to Adam, not some angel named Azazel, as it is written,For by one man's disobedience many were made sinners. (Romans 5:19)

Romans 5:12 and following reveals this one man was Adam.

In an attempt to justfy this statement in the Book of Enoch someone may argue "Enoch" was referring to Satan, as if "Azazel" was a reference to the Devil. So, perhaps this is a reference to the temptation of Eve by the Serpent?
No. First, Satan is mentioned by name in chapter 53 verse 3 and there is no hint of him being called Azazel. Secondly, according to the Book of Enoch, Gadreel was the one who tempted Eve. Speaking in the context of fallen angels, it says,

"And the third was named Gadreel: he it is who showed the children of men all the blows of death, and he led astray Eve, and showed [the weapons of death to the sons of men] the shield and the coat of mail, and the sword for battle, and all the weapons of death to the children of men. (69:6-7)

Please see Genesis 3 for the truth.
 
Well...this post seems to answer my question below:



This latest post sounds very much like you have made up your mind, as you still have not remarked about my post on dual applications.

I have a hard time with folks initially saying they are uncertain and then soon after sounding very much certain. I think it best to come clean at the start.

Yes Rusty...........the prophets always had a "short view & a long view".

Short was for the immediate and the long was for the future.
 
See what makes me sway more towards the Preterist views is the literal and spiritual views. The descriptions of the scripture is based in the generation in which Jesus and the disciples lived. Josephus writes about the War of the Jews when the temple was destroyed. Signs and wonders in heaven. Heaven opened up and seeing chariots and soldiers running around among the clouds and all cities of Palestine. In Revelations Jesus tells John in the very first paragragh Revelations 1:1 things must shortly(quickly, swiftly) take place.

The Lord told Daniel to seal up the book until the time of the end. The Lord told John in Revelation 1:3 for the time is near. See why would He tell Daniel to seal these things and tell John that this must shortly take place, if they weren't going to happen. I believe that all has been fulfilled. The temple hasn't been rebuilt for 1943 years. Why would they need to rebuild it again? Jesus fulfilled the Law. There is no more need for sacrifice.

It is the writings like this from the scribe or writers of the time of tribulation in Israel that make me go hmmmmm.

Josephus
(A.D. 75) - Jewish Historian
"Besides these [signs], a few days after that feast, on the one- and-twentieth day of the month Artemisius, [Jyar,] a certain prodigious and incredible phenomenon appeared; I suppose the account of it would seem to be a fable, were it not related by those that saw it, and were not the events that followed it of so considerable a nature as to deserve such signals; for, before sun-setting, chariots and troops of soldiers in their armour were seen running about among the clouds, and surrounding of cities. Moreover, at that feast which we call Pentecost, as the priests were going by night into the inner [court of the] temple, as their custom was, to perform their sacred ministrations, they said that, in the first place, they felt a quaking, and heard a great noise, and after that they heard a sound as of a great multitude, saying, "Let us remove hence" (Jewish Wars, VI-V-3).


“A supernatural apparition was seen, too amazing to be believed. What I am now to relate would, I imagine, be dismissed as imaginary, had this not been vouched for by eyewitnesses, then followed by subsequent disasters that deserved to be thus signalized. For before sunset chariots were seen in the air over the whole country, and armed battalions speeding through the clouds and encircling the cities.” (rendered in Chilton)

Tacitus (A.D. 115) - Roman historian

"13. Prodigies had occurred, but their expiation by the offering of victims or solemn vows is held to be unlawful by a nation which is the slave of superstition and the enemy of true beliefs. In the sky appeared a vision of armies in conflict, of glittering armour. A sudden lightning flash from the clouds lit up the Temple. The doors of the holy place abruptly opened, a superhuman voice was heard to declare that the gods were leaving it, and in the same instant came the rushing tumult of their departure. Few people placed a sinister interpretation upon this. The majority were convinced that the ancient scriptures of their priests alluded to the present as the very time when the Orient would triumph and from Judaea would go forth men destined to rule the world." (Histories, Book 5, v. 13).

Josephus was a historian and none of his writings are inspired and should not be considered as such.
 
Josephus was a historian and none of his writings are inspired and should not be considered as such.

So we should throw out the Book of Jude that quotes the Book of Enoch then, right? I am just saying if it is referenced in text that is canon, why wouldn't it be included.

Who decides this stuff? The councel of Nicea? King James I?

IMO the scriptures have been removed for a reason we don't undetstand. It confuses the masses and it seems to be used for molding them to discredit G_d. Enoch was taken by the Lord. He did not see death. I would consider it one of the more important books written...
 
So we should throw out the Book of Jude that quotes the Book of Enoch then, right? I am just saying if it is referenced in text that is canon, why wouldn't it be included.

Who decides this stuff? The councel of Nicea? King James I?

IMO the scriptures have been removed for a reason we don't undetstand. It confuses the masses and it seems to be used for molding them to discredit G_d. Enoch was taken by the Lord. He did not see death. I would consider it one of the more important books written...

THey were not removed.........they were never added my friend.

Have you read the book of Enoch. It is an obviouse fraud and contradicts all other Biblical accounts.

A born-again Christian who has been reading the Bible for several years only needs to read the "Book of Enoch" briefly to know that something is very wrong. There are so many obvious flaws with this alleged missing book of God's Word. It is clear to me that someone copied from the Bible and wrote this garbage. The same type of mumbo-jumbo can be readily observed in the Qur'an. I do NOT believe that Enoch, who lived during the time period of Genesis, wrote this manuscript. Evidently the King James translators didn't either, and for good reason. The Devil is working relentlessly to corrupt God's Word, as he has been doing since the Garden of Eden, when he caused Eve to doubt God's Word. Satan is so shrewd that he even tried to confuse our Lord by misinterpreting the Scriptures in Matthew 4:1-10. In these apostate times, the Word of God is under attack like never before. The reason why is simple... if Satan can pervert the Word of God into a lie, then he can control the masses!

From Enoch
9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’
10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices
I heard in those days.

The Bible never mentions an angel named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. What blasphemy! That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches.

We read in 1st Timothy 2:5 that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and men, not some angel named Phanuel... "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Repentance is strictly between a man and Jesus Christ alone.

Only Jesus died for our sins, and shed His blood to pay for them (1st Peter 1:18-19); therefore, we must be diligent to guard and defend against LIARS and imposters who would lead people to believe otherwise. 1st John 2:22 clearly indicts all Christ-deniers as LIARS, guilty before God.
 
THey were not removed.........they were never added my friend.

Have you read the book of Enoch. It is an obviouse fraud and contradicts all other Biblical accounts.

A born-again Christian who has been reading the Bible for several years only needs to read the "Book of Enoch" briefly to know that something is very wrong. There are so many obvious flaws with this alleged missing book of God's Word. It is clear to me that someone copied from the Bible and wrote this garbage. The same type of mumbo-jumbo can be readily observed in the Qur'an. I do NOT believe that Enoch, who lived during the time period of Genesis, wrote this manuscript. Evidently the King James translators didn't either, and for good reason. The Devil is working relentlessly to corrupt God's Word, as he has been doing since the Garden of Eden, when he caused Eve to doubt God's Word. Satan is so shrewd that he even tried to confuse our Lord by misinterpreting the Scriptures in Matthew 4:1-10. In these apostate times, the Word of God is under attack like never before. The reason why is simple... if Satan can pervert the Word of God into a lie, then he can control the masses!

From Enoch
9 seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’
10 And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices
I heard in those days.

The Bible never mentions an angel named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. What blasphemy! That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches.

We read in 1st Timothy 2:5 that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and men, not some angel named Phanuel... "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." Repentance is strictly between a man and Jesus Christ alone.

Only Jesus died for our sins, and shed His blood to pay for them (1st Peter 1:18-19); therefore, we must be diligent to guard and defend against LIARS and imposters who would lead people to believe otherwise. 1st John 2:22 clearly indicts all Christ-deniers as LIARS, guilty before God.

It's funny you posted that, because I just got done reading that online word for word.

I believe in the Book of Enoch. It explains a lot. May I ask if you read the Book of Enoch?
 

Glomung

Account Closed
At the time that the Bishops of the church had the various councils to compile scripture there were literally hundreds of odd parchments, scrolls and books in existance that someone or other claimed were holy and inspired. The councils tossed out all that "did not pass muster" for whatever reason. I have read many of those in my studies, and in my opinion the councils were correct in their estimations (we expect that they were divinely inspired). The Book of Enoch, though fun reading, is a bit weird, the chalkidri (dragons of the sun), warehouses of snow, and the "pen of quick writing" (God uses a ballpoint pen!) are all amusing though a bit absurd. The "Infancies" have Jesus commanding dragons, turning boys into goats, making the dead speak, and whitening clothes better than Tide.
 
Well, followerofchrist72...after 3 attempts to get you to respond to my post on dual application of prophecy, and seeing that you would rather prop up rejected pseudo-Apocryphal books, I feel my ideas ignored. No biggy...So I will leave you in more capable and tolerant hands and pray the Master will guide you out of the fog of mystical angels and sun dragons and plant your feet on solid ground.
 
I believed the Temple was going to be rebuilt. I never heard anything about their 2520 year punishment. Seems like a very odd punishment sentence. Do you have proof of this number?


Israel was a nation in 606BC, but they yet again turned away from God, so God punished them by allowing the nation to be overrun and people enslaved. Babylon finally finished the job in 587BC and destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. The Jews were held prisoner for 70 Jewish years, 69 years in our calendar, when they were released by King Cyrus the Persian King who conquered Babylon. In 537BC , they were told to return to their lands and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem

During the enslavement by Babylon, the prophet Ezekiel comes along and gives this message and prophecy to the Jews.

. Ezekiel 4:4-6 “Now lie on your left side and place the sins of Israel on yourself. You are to bear their sins for the number of days you lie there on your side. You will bear Israel’s sins for 390 days – one day for each year of their sin. After that, turn over and lie on your right side for 40 days – one day for each year of Judah’s sin.”
.
God is basically saying, you will now be punished for 430 biblical (Jewish) years, and you will not have a country or nation again until this time passes however, as you already been enslaved, for 70 years, this is reduced to 360 years, and you must repent for all your sins. Disaster, the Jews who returned in 537BC did not do this.

So according to the prophecy, Israel should have emerged as a nation in 176 BC, but they did not, they were continually occupied and ruled over by Persians, Greeks and Romans, finally in AD70 the Romans destroyed the Temple and scattered the Jewish population and put most into slavery around the Empire.

So what went wrong? Well if you look in Leviticus you get the idea that if Gods chosen went against him, he would punish them 7 times over.

26:18 “And if in spite of this, you still disobey me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.”

26:21“If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins.”

26:23-24“And if you fail to learn a lesson from this and continue your hostility toward me, then I myself will be hostile toward you, and I will personally strike you seven times over for your sins.”

26;27-28“If after this you still refuse to listen and still remain hostile toward me, then I will give full vent to my hostility. I will punish you seven times over for your sins.”

The punishment for disobeying the order to repent in 537BC resulted in a new punishment and increase of the punishment of being enslaved and not able to have a nation, by 7 times, which now increases the time from 360 years to 2520 years.

This is of course Jewish years which remain constant through history, it all works out to 1948 in our calendar.
 
Well, followerofchrist72...after 3 attempts to get you to respond to my post on dual application of prophecy, and seeing that you would rather prop up rejected pseudo-Apocryphal books, I feel my ideas ignored. No biggy...So I will leave you in more capable and tolerant hands and pray the Master will guide you out of the fog of mystical angels and sun dragons and plant your feet on solid ground.

I didn't disrespect you, but you are cold towards me. I wasn't ignoring you. I respect what you are talking about and I do understand the dual application of prophecy. The Bible talks about many things seem hard to understand. Angels are spoken of in Bible and scripture, and so are dragons. How about unicorns too? Dragons symbolize a serpent, and unicorn symbolizes a wild oxen. Unless one researches the word in the Hebrew/Greek dictionary one won't fully understand and think it is fables and non-sense. 2nd Timothy 2:15 says:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I don't think I am in a fog. I can only hope it is a cloud that surounds me like in Isaiah 44:22 which says:22 I have blotted out, like a thick cloud, your transgressions, And like a cloud, your sins. Return to Me, for I have redeemed you.”
 
Israel was a nation in 606BC, but they yet again turned away from God, so God punished them by allowing the nation to be overrun and people enslaved. Babylon finally finished the job in 587BC and destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. The Jews were held prisoner for 70 Jewish years, 69 years in our calendar, when they were released by King Cyrus the Persian King who conquered Babylon. In 537BC , they were told to return to their lands and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem

During the enslavement by Babylon, the prophet Ezekiel comes along and gives this message and prophecy to the Jews.

. Ezekiel 4:4-6 “Now lie on your left side and place the sins of Israel on yourself. You are to bear their sins for the number of days you lie there on your side. You will bear Israel’s sins for 390 days – one day for each year of their sin. After that, turn over and lie on your right side for 40 days – one day for each year of Judah’s sin.”
.
God is basically saying, you will now be punished for 430 biblical (Jewish) years, and you will not have a country or nation again until this time passes however, as you already been enslaved, for 70 years, this is reduced to 360 years, and you must repent for all your sins. Disaster, the Jews who returned in 537BC did not do this.

So according to the prophecy, Israel should have emerged as a nation in 176 BC, but they did not, they were continually occupied and ruled over by Persians, Greeks and Romans, finally in AD70 the Romans destroyed the Temple and scattered the Jewish population and put most into slavery around the Empire.

So what went wrong? Well if you look in Leviticus you get the idea that if Gods chosen went against him, he would punish them 7 times over.

26:18 “And if in spite of this, you still disobey me, I will punish you for your sins seven times over.”

26:21“If even then you remain hostile toward me and refuse to obey, I will inflict you with seven more disasters for your sins.”

26:23-24“And if you fail to learn a lesson from this and continue your hostility toward me, then I myself will be hostile toward you, and I will personally strike you seven times over for your sins.”

26;27-28“If after this you still refuse to listen and still remain hostile toward me, then I will give full vent to my hostility. I will punish you seven times over for your sins.”

The punishment for disobeying the order to repent in 537BC resulted in a new punishment and increase of the punishment of being enslaved and not able to have a nation, by 7 times, which now increases the time from 360 years to 2520 years.

This is of course Jewish years which remain constant through history, it all works out to 1948 in our calendar.

I understand your 360 years times 7 which brings it to 2520. The 1948 doesn't fit in the equation that I can see. Hmmmm
 
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