Questions

[dan in the lion's den]

That's amazing! Can you tell me more? What was the ailment?

Hi Life. Is that your eyeball? Anyway. Back many moons ago, when I was about 17, I had really bad stomach problems. I had attempted suicide a few years earlier by walking in front of a car. I had really bad anxiety and depression from repeated abuse. I had been taken to the doctor to treat my stomach. I couldn't eat more than a couple of bites, then I would be sick. I only weighed about 110lbs. and was losing more weight fast. After tests, the doctor said my stomach was very inflamed and said what he saw in me was usually what he would see in overworked/stressed men 3x my age and asked what was wrong with me(psychologically). How was I to tell him my mother had me molested by her sick boyfriend with her standing right there? So I said nothing. I was prescribed meds and sent home.
My stomach was really unstable for the next year with bouts of nausea off and on. No real weight gain.
A REAL Christian mentioned to my mom an evangelist was coming to town.(Corpus Christi) and would we like to go see him.
It was Joe Donato, a former Mafia bookie and murderer saved by the Lord in a miraculous manner. As Joe spoke of the wonders of the Lord.....I was fascinated. He spoke of the Mafia and Hollywood and how intertwined they were. He spoke of all that fame and fortune and yet how very miserable they all were.
After saying all he did, he then said there would be a healing service. Now mind you, we are all in this Catholic Church(proper and such) and this guy says we're gonna have a healing service. I sat bolt upright and thought to myself punk of a self "yeah......right" "this outta be good" and looked around to watch the show. People began to form a line as Joe instructed. Joe prayed for people one at a time. He then stopped looked out into the gymnasium bleachers(it was a Catholic school) and said "someone here has a stomach problem" he looked around the crowd and I did too. Our eyes met. My cynicism turn instantly to out-right fear. He looked right at me....right through me. He said "the Lord has shown me someone has stomach problems and is healing them right now". My stomach started felling warm and tingly. I grabbed my stomach and hunched over telling my stomach secretly "Stop that! He CAN'T be talking about me." Joe then said, while still staring straight at me with a room full of people between us, "The Lord is partially healing you now but He wants you to come down here so we can lay hands on you to complete the healing." I thought "No frigg'n way Jack!". Joe then said "the Lord wants you to accept this healing publicly". I sat frozen in my seat. "Not going down there in front of all these people" Joe looked straight at me in a disappointed way then continued the service for others. I still recieved my healing. It took a little while, but 35 years and 150lbs later.....I'd say the Lord did pretty good work on my stomach...maybe a little too good.
Don't be afraid of the Holy Spirit nor the gifts thereof. DO be wary of those on the extremes of either side of the issue. I speak in tongues to the Lord in private. It's my spirit's S.O.S. from me to Him. It's between me and Him no one else invited to that little commune time.
I think if you see a person in distress, or in the future the church in general, then you will see outpourings of the gifts. Subscribe to the Voice of the Martyrs magazine if you want to read about miracles for Christians in distress.

0.

 

[KingJ]

Thanks for your testimony Dan.

I agree with your earlier post, too many throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Lifeasweknowit]

Hi Life. Is that your eyeball? Anyway. Back many moons ago, when I was about 17, I had really bad stomach problems. I had attempted suicide a few years earlier by walking in front of a car. I had really bad anxiety and depression from repeated abuse. I had been taken to the doctor to treat my stomach. I couldn't eat more than a couple of bites, then I would be sick. I only weighed about 110lbs. and was losing more weight fast. After tests, the doctor said my stomach was very inflamed and said what he saw in me was usually what he would see in overworked/stressed men 3x my age and asked what was wrong with me(psychologically). How was I to tell him my mother had me molested by her sick boyfriend with her standing right there? So I said nothing. I was prescribed meds and sent home.
My stomach was really unstable for the next year with bouts of nausea off and on. No real weight gain.
A REAL Christian mentioned to my mom an evangelist was coming to town.(Corpus Christi) and would we like to go see him.
It was Joe Donato, a former Mafia bookie and murderer saved by the Lord in a miraculous manner. As Joe spoke of the wonders of the Lord.....I was fascinated. He spoke of the Mafia and Hollywood and how intertwined they were. He spoke of all that fame and fortune and yet how very miserable they all were.
After saying all he did, he then said there would be a healing service. Now mind you, we are all in this Catholic Church(proper and such) and this guy says we're gonna have a healing service. I sat bolt upright and thought to myself punk of a self "yeah......right" "this outta be good" and looked around to watch the show. People began to form a line as Joe instructed. Joe prayed for people one at a time. He then stopped looked out into the gymnasium bleachers(it was a Catholic school) and said "someone here has a stomach problem" he looked around the crowd and I did too. Our eyes met. My cynicism turn instantly to out-right fear. He looked right at me....right through me. He said "the Lord has shown me someone has stomach problems and is healing them right now". My stomach started felling warm and tingly. I grabbed my stomach and hunched over telling my stomach secretly "Stop that! He CAN'T be talking about me." Joe then said, while still staring straight at me with a room full of people between us, "The Lord is partially healing you now but He wants you to come down here so we can lay hands on you to complete the healing." I thought "No frigg'n way Jack!". Joe then said "the Lord wants you to accept this healing publicly". I sat frozen in my seat. "Not going down there in front of all these people" Joe looked straight at me in a disappointed way then continued the service for others. I still recieved my healing. It took a little while, but 35 years and 150lbs later.....I'd say the Lord did pretty good work on my stomach...maybe a little too good.
Don't be afraid of the Holy Spirit nor the gifts thereof. DO be wary of those on the extremes of either side of the issue. I speak in tongues to the Lord in private. It's my spirit's S.O.S. from me to Him. It's between me and Him no one else invited to that little commune time.
I think if you see a person in distress, or in the future the church in general, then you will see outpourings of the gifts. Subscribe to the Voice of the Martyrs magazine if you want to read about miracles for Christians in distress.

0.

Wow....Dan...wow. I am out of words. Thank you so much for sharing that. I almost want my brother to read this. Him and I both suffered abuse and he was molested. I too attempted suicide by running in front of a car. I was 17. Was admitted to a mental hospital shortly thereafter. Thankfully I never got that low in my life again, but I can still remember everything like it just happened. What does "speaking in tongues" mean to you? I read somewhere that it means speaking different languages. I would love more than anything to receive healing for my ED.

 

[dan in the lion's den]

Life, it's good you dealt with your issues early on. I went into complete denial for decades then had a breakdown 10 years ago and am still on disability. My abuse started very early in life. My father cursed my mother when he found out she was pregnant with me, calling her names that rhyme with itch and wore. My dad placed a window unit AC over my bed and had it going every night. The only AC in the house. I caught pneumonia and spent a week in the hospital under an oxygen tent. After I got out, it was back under the AC. I still remember my dad chipping away at the ice buildup on the coils each morning before going to work. He had it on full blast. He would order my mom to chip the ice after he left. I asked her why. She would just say because your dad says so. After she gave up and left the room, I grabbed the icepick and jabbed the coils. All the refrigerant spewed out. No more freezing nights.
After that he tried to give me away to his sister. My older brother was given free reign over me. Teasing and taunting turned to sexual,emotional, verbal and finally physical abuse. I was still forced to share a room with him.
We moved when I was 9 yrs old. My mom then began grooming me to be the boy toy for her sick pedo-boyfriend priest. When I refused to massage him again at the age of 12, she made a profound statement. She said "I have always thought it a priviledge to bring comfort to a man of God. You should do whatever he asks. I always did. It should be considered an honor by you." The priest wanted me to massage his "front". You know what I mean.
Two years earlier I kissed an 11 yr old girl. My mother had me beaten by my dad right after she had already whipped me herself. He beat me so hard with a belt across my bare legs, that you could see the outline of the belt along with the adjustment holes in red on my skin for a week or more. In other words, ANY contact with a girl....beat him and if he refuses sexual contact with men...berate him.
At 15, after the divorce, the priest and my mom coerced me into going to the beach with a close friend of the priest. I was taken way down Padre Island and molested for hours. I thought he was going to kill me. After we got back home and walked inside, I separated myself from him and when he left, I told my mom everything. She just stood there washing dishes. She never turned around. No surprise. No anger. No sorrow. All she said was "They were just testing you." I said "WHAT?" and she just repeated herself. I was told at the beach that other kids were cooperating, why wasn't I?
Life, I have finally come to the conclusion that I am most probably the illegitimate child of an affair between my mother and a priest in Victoria, Texas. My siblings refuse DNA testing. An aunt told me a few years ago that, as a child, my mother would sneak off to a religious orphanage in Waco(it's still there) and spend a lot of time there. I believe she was molested there and brainwashed into becoming a "priestly"concubine. Then passed from priest to priest wherever we moved. My dad must've found out.
OK ....speaking in tongues. It is my way of communicating in the spirit with the Lord. I am able to express the anguish, hurt, resentment....my spirit cries out to speak the otherwise unspeakable.

 

[Lifeasweknowit]

She most likely dealt with a massive amount of abuse and brainwashing, as you said. I am so sorry you had to go through this. May want to consider writing a book....

 

[TalkJesus]

I had always thought myself a Christian. I was on a forum and the subject of baptism came up. I came to be pressed by the Lord. Obedience. Baptism is a symbol of that obedience, but it is also much, much more.

Now wait a minute, dan in the lion's den. By saying you had always thought yourself a christian until water baptism came up, that is like saying that you were not a christian before water baptism. I beg to differ.

1 Corinthians 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect. 18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

Romans 10: 8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. 14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

It is a covenent between you and God. You are pledging yourself to Him and He to you.

No. God is making the New Covenant with you and all that He asks of you is to believe in the One He has sent. It is a relationship of trust wherein no man can boast in any confidence in the flesh because no matter how much the spirit is willing, the flesh is weak, therefore what is impossible with man, is possible with God where the just shall live by faith and only by faith if they wish to know Him & the power of His resurrection as the Son of God helps them to follow Him.

John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Galatians 5:1Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage....5 For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:.....11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

 

[TalkJesus]

Absolutely...and I see no reason for God needing us to babble to Him in "tongues" when He already knows what is in our hearts.

Believers are not to believe every spirit but test them and Paul testified plainly what God's gift of tongues were for, and that was for speaking unto the people as it was of other men's lips.

If believers are to prove all things and abstain from all appearances of evil, then God would never allow His tongue to mimick what Satan had been doing as babbling nonsense before the gospel of Christ had come into the world.

Believers asking the Holy Spirit directly is dishonouring the Son as the only Mediator between God and man. Believers seeking to receive the Holy Spirit again to get this tongue is also departing from faith in Jesus Christ because there is no other calling nor any other baptism with the Holy Spirit nor any other drink of the One Spirit.

Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Better to know what you had asked for so that you can glorify the Father in the Son for the Son in answering your prayers.

John 14: 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me....13 And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it.

Believers need to repent of this vain and profane babblings by going before that throne of grace for help.

 

[calvin]

Is that the sound of the 'anonymous Grim Reaper' I hear sharpening his scythe?
TJ while what you are saying is right, be aware that there are prejudices and biases in high places....not sayin'.... just sayin'

 

[dan in the lion's den]

Well TJ, if you want to call my double-minded, unrepentent, unconfessing, disobedient walk before baptism Christianity then thats up to you. In my book I was a goat and not a sheep. I was luke warm and not hot for the Lord. I knew of the Lord and thought I had invited him in but did not show evidence of dying to self. Whatever that was before baptism, I wouldn't call it Christianity. In that state I had 4 affairs, gambled, had a sexual addiction, etc....etc. After baptism, no more affairs, no more heavy drinking(I have an occasional drink. Typically a 6-pack lasts me 2 months.), gambling, my language is cleaned up much more. My sexual addiction fading fast.
I will say this though. The Lord looked out for me all my life. I can see that. But it was one-sided. I was not participating actively in that relationship.
I was of the same mind as many about water baptism before, but after being baptized, I view it as fundamental and essential to an obedient walk with our Lord. I'm sure many, many unbaptized people feel like you do. I sure did. But no more.
As far as the Holy Spirit, I don't know where you get that I am not a Trinitarian. I can't see the Holy Spirit eclipsing the Father nor the Son. I figure you probably don't believe in the gift of healing either and you are simply so uncomfortable with anyone manifesting any gift to the point of denial. At which point does that become blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? I think I would tread lightly there. Trying to box in God is not the wisest of courses IMHO.

 

[TalkJesus]

Well TJ, if you want to call my double-minded, unrepentent, unconfessing, disobedient walk before baptism Christianity then thats up to you. In my book I was a goat and not a sheep. I was luke warm and not hot for the Lord. I knew of the Lord and thought I had invited him in but did not show evidence of dying to self. Whatever that was before baptism, I wouldn't call it Christianity. In that state I had 4 affairs, gambled, had a sexual addiction, etc....etc. After baptism, no more affairs, no more heavy drinking(I have an occasional drink. Typically a 6-pack lasts me 2 months.), gambling, my language is cleaned up much more. My sexual addiction fading fast.
I will say this though. The Lord looked out for me all my life. I can see that. But it was one-sided. I was not participating actively in that relationship.

That is what I had actually meant. You were saved before water baptsim when you had first come to & believed in Jesus Christ, but you did not continue in His words in being His disciple, and thus you were buildong on that foundation, wood, stubble, and hay in spite of the fact that the Lord has always been with you.

Ephesians 4:29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

These exhortations are given to saved believers and doing them does not mean they are not saved, but grieving the Holy Spirit within them of whom they and we have been sealed unto that day of redemption.

I was of the same mind as many about water baptism before, but after being baptized, I view it as fundamental and essential to an obedient walk with our Lord. I'm sure many, many unbaptized people feel like you do. I sure did. But no more.

Many Galatians were of that same mind too as if they can finish by the flesh what was begun in the Spirit, but our confidence should not be in our keeping our commitments, pledges or promises to God but keeping the faith in the Son of God of Whom our confidence rests in as He will finish His work in us which is to His glory.

As far as the Holy Spirit, I don't know where you get that I am not a Trinitarian. I can't see the Holy Spirit eclipsing the Father nor the Son.

Where did we talk about that point in this thread? I do not believe I was addressing you denying the Triune God at all, however, I do believe the Holy Spirit serves as the divine Witness to be combined with ours by not speaking of Himself ( John 16:13) in seeking His own glory ( John 7:18) but testifying of the Son ( John 15:26) in seeking His glory ( John 16:14) & by Him, the glory of God the Father ( John 13:31-32) as that is the mind of Christ we are to have in worship ( Philippians 2:5-11 & Colossians 3:16-17 ) .

I figure you probably don't believe in the gift of healing either and you are simply so uncomfortable with anyone manifesting any gift to the point of denial. At which point does that become blasphemy of the Holy Spirit? I think I would tread lightly there. Trying to box in God is not the wisest of courses IMHO.

I believe the Bible meant what it is written that believers are not to believe every spirit but test them. God would not manifest tongues to speak back to Himself which is what He would be doing because the Holy Spirit speaks what He hears ( John 16:13-15 ) as the words of the Father are now the Son's as He is fulfilling His role as our Good Shepherd.

If believers that were saved from voodooism and from seeking after familiar spirits in having this supernatural tongue that comes with no interpretation but is just babbling nonsense, how then can they abstain from all appearances of evil if God really manifest tongues in the same manner from which their former supernatural tongue performed as?

Answer: He would not, because then the converted from the occult would doubt their standing with the Lord as other will also: not just the believers in church, but when seeking to be a witness to those that are still in the occult that are having this vain & profane babblings of supernatural tongue from which God had delivered them from.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

So testing the spirits in proving the tongues as being of God is not blasphemying against the Holy Ghost when believers have been instructed & warned not to believe every spirit, because we are in a war of principality & with dark forces which is why we go before that throne of grace and ask for help from our Good Shepherd Whom will overcome this snare for us.

 

[Lifeasweknowit]

Thank you everyone so very much for your input! Obviously, there different thoughts on baptism, but I have decided that I am going to do it. It's something that's been on my mind for a while. Are you able to get baptized anytime or do you have to wait until the church holds a baptismal?

 

[calvin]

Should be able to have a baptism any time you like. You might want to wait a few weeks so that friends and social contacts can attend. It is your witness opportunity, not the Church's.

 

[Brother_Mike_V]

Thank you everyone so very much for your input! Obviously, there different thoughts on baptism, but I have decided that I am going to do it. It's something that's been on my mind for a while. Are you able to get baptized anytime or do you have to wait until the church holds a baptismal?

Ask the Pastor, I am sure he will have a few questions to pose to you-maybe not.

 

[Lifeasweknowit]

Will do; thank you always Dirty!

Oh wait...we don't talk to the pastors where I go...or we can but usually you talk to the helpers first. I'll have to talk to one of the "info" people....

 

[TalkJesus]

There is nothing wrong with having water baptism, but Paul says it is not necessary for salvation. Just be sure you do it in that mindset of keeping the faith in Jesus Christ because you were saved since you came to & believed in Jesus Christ.

 

[Lifeasweknowit]

There is nothing wrong with having water baptism, but Paul says it is not necessary for salvation. Just be sure you do it in that mindset of keeping the faith in Jesus Christ because you were saved since you came to & believed in Jesus Christ.

Yes, I know this...that's not the reason I'm doing it, but thank you.

 

[Brother_Mike_V]

Just one more scripture:

Jesus did it... Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Maybe 2:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Or 3:

Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

4?:

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

"Follow Me." -Jesus Christ

Did Christ do ANYTHING in vain-or to be the archetype?

 

[Major]

Will do; thank you always Dirty!

Oh wait...we don't talk to the pastors where I go...or we can but usually you talk to the helpers first. I'll have to talk to one of the "info" people....

Whoaaa girl. Are you saying that you are not able to talk with the pastor of the church you attend???

Red light Red light!

1 Tim. 3:1
"If a man desires the office of a bishop (Pastor) he desires a good work"

4.....
"One that ruelth well his own house having his children in subjection with all reverance:
5....
"For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God"?

 

[TalkJesus]

Just one more scripture:

Jesus did it... Mark 1:9 And it came to pass in those days, that Jesus came from Nazareth of Galilee, and was baptized of John in Jordan. 10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him: 11 And there came a voice from heaven, saying, Thou art my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Maybe 2:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. 30 This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me. 31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water. 32 And John bare record, saying, I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and it abode upon him. 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost. 34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

Or 3:

Luke 3:21 Now when all the people were baptized, it came to pass, that Jesus also being baptized, and praying, the heaven was opened, 22 And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.

4?:

Matthew 3:13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him. 14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me? 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him. 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

"Follow Me." -Jesus Christ

Did Christ do ANYTHING in vain-or to be the archetype?

Actually the event after His water baptism was te fulfillment of the rophesy that the Father's & His Spirit's testimonies of having sent Him thus meaning that Jesus is God as it was prophesied.

Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord God, and his Spirit, hath sent me. 17 Thus saith the Lord, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the Lord thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.

If we were to take that request in following Jesus after His example then...

John 4:1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

We wind up with a conundrum. Either way, we wind up with voiding water baptism altogether for how can we be baptized if the believers are following His example by not baptizing?

It is a good thing that the Lord's hand is not shortened that He cannot save if there was no water around for water baptism, but yet there is nothing wrong with water baptism as long as it is not being done to save oneself as if Jesus is not able to save us all by Himself. Believers that see this errr can repent and be forgiven for thinking that way, and may their speech be corrected to give an answer of their hope in Him for those that ask.

1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

 

[Brother_Mike_V]

You can argue that water baptism is void if you wish; many do. My stance is the same-if you feel the desire to show your obedience to Christ through water baptism-then I don't think there is anything 'un' Biblical about it.

Concerning John 4:2, are you 100% sure about the translation of "but"? Does this mean that Jesus' disciples baptized people, or does it mean Jesus baptized the disciples? This is not the 'Holy Spirit' baptism since they did not receive that baptism until after the resurrection. Either way-water baptism was going in Jesus' presence AND after the resurrection. I don't think that can be disputed. So why would Jesus condone water baptism if it became void in the future?