Questions

Dirtyrottensinner said:
You can argue that water baptism is void if you wish; many do.
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Well, brother. Scripture does not support water baptism as a necessity for salvation.

My stance is the same-if you feel the desire to show your obedience to Christ through water baptism-then I don't think there is anything 'un' Biblical about it.
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If by obedience to Christ is by not believing in Jesus as being able to save you that you need water baptism, then that is not being obedient to Christ.

1 Peter 3:21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Water is used for putting away the filth of the flesh and so Peter was denouncing water baptism here as it is the answer of a good conscience toward God which is by believing in the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Concerning John 4:2, are you 100% sure about the translation of "but"? Does this mean that Jesus' disciples baptized people, or does it mean Jesus baptized the disciples?
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John 4:1When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John, 2 (Though Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples,)

Since John the Baptist have been getting disciples by his water baptism as there are disciples of John the Baptist's, clarity was needed here that His disciples were growing by water baptism in Jesus' name, but Jesus wasn't the One that was actually baptizing others, but His disciples were doing it.

This is not the 'Holy Spirit' baptism since they did not receive that baptism until after the resurrection.
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Umm.. not quite. They had received the promise of the permanent indwelling Holy Ghost at Pentecost which was after Jesus had ascended to the right hand of God the Father. The one that He had given in John 20th chapter was still a temporary one because He was still present with them.

Either way-water baptism was going in Jesus' presence AND after the resurrection. I don't think that can be disputed. So why would Jesus condone water baptism if it became void in the future?
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Jesus never validated water baptism as a significant point in any believer's life in being born again. In fact, He had spoken against such outward limitation as to when a person was saved.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?....14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If water baptism was the event when a perosn was born again then what Jesus said in verse 8 would be null & void. Nicodemus had asked another question for how this born again can come about then and Jesus answered by any one believing in Him is how one is born again as in saved.

Acts 10:43-48 testifies to believers receiving the Holy Ghost before they got water baptized, even though afterwards, they were commanded to do so.

So it is not a necessity for salvation, but IF as a commandment to do it for salvation, then faith is being voided.

If you read John 14:15-17, you would think that there are commandments to do in order to receive the promise of the Holy Ghost, as if it meant all that Jesus had taught, but not so. The commandments He was referring to is what He has repeated over and over again leading up to that verse 15 and that is to believe Him from verse 1.

Ephesians 1:12-15 is proof of what is being plainly taught to the churches as to when a believer receives the promise of the Spirit by faith in Jesus Christ.
 
Correct. Being baptized is an act of obedience NOT a requirement of salvation.

I can tell you for a fact that I have lead many to the Lord Jesus on the battlefield and there was not a time or place to be baptized but those men were absolutely saved!
 
In an article in the Voice of the Martyrs magazine once, there was a story where a young woman who was saved and felt led to be baptized way up in the mountains of Afghanistan. She was alone and had very little water. She pour that little bit of water and baptized herself right then and there. Do you think the Lord honored this? I do.
 
Dirtyrottensinner said:
I think if you look at the beginning of the thread-that was well established already.....
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Was it established by you? Sorry for missing that, but the way you were replying recently as if opposing what I was saying as not necessary for salvation had led me to believe you were meaning that.

However, I am reluctant to believe that water baptism is a commandment for a believer to do in order to avoid sinning when the opportunity for water baptism is not presently available.

Having it as a heavy burden to be water baptized makes His yoke neither easy nor His burden light. But when it is the desire of the believer to be water baptised as a public witness, then this is honourable & pleasing to the Lord.
 
dan in the lion's den said:
In an article in the Voice of the Martyrs magazine once, there was a story where a young woman who was saved and felt led to be baptized way up in the mountains of Afghanistan. She was alone and had very little water. She pour that little bit of water and baptized herself right then and there. Do you think the Lord honored this? I do.
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Yes, if it is true, the Lord will honour this, but as a public witness, it isn't.

Jesus said that no one can be a witness of himself or herself otherwise it is not true: John 5:31 and so I have to wonder how anyone can testify of what that sister had done other than taking her at her word which by His word says we are not to take as true.
 
It is a choice; as with all the Lord's 'commandments'/ examples-we chose for ourselves. I would say it is a wise choice in showing allegiance and obedience to the Lord. No way is saying it is necessary for salvation 0r for 'prevention of sin'. The only thing that prevents sin is our decision making process-and we still sin in thought.

Looking at scripture-it is my opinion that the argument for water baptism is much more evident than no water baptism.
 
Major said:
Whoaaa girl. Are you saying that you are not able to talk with the pastor of the church you attend???

Red light(n) Red light!

1 Tim. 3:1
"If a man desires the office of a bishop (Pastor) he desires a good work"

4.....
"One that ruelth well his own house having his children in subjection with all reverance:
5....
"For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God"?
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Hi Major!!! Long time no talk, how are you? I'm not sure if we can talk to him, it's just that everytime after service, and after the people who came up to the stage who were saved, he leaves and the helpers take over and people go to the prayer room. I've never thought to ask if we can or cannot speak to him, but he leaves the stage so I'm assuming we cannot. I think it would be a good idea for me to ask.

I went to another church where the pastor welcomed people to come talk to him after. I did, which is when I cried my eyes out telling him I didn't feel I was saved (back in early 2011), he comforted me and explained a lot. Good man. Then one of his helpers from pastoral support gave me his card if I ever needed to speak to anyone. Perhaps I should go back to that church.

Love,
Tink
 
Well well well, I went onto my churches website and guess what appears when I look into getting baptized:

It says the purpose of water baptism is a "scriptural requirement" of one’s "obedient witness" and that it is "symbolic and spiritual identification with Jesus Christ’s death".

It goes on to say that if you have made a commitment to Jesus in repenting of your sins and receiving Him in your heart, it is greatly encouraged that we follow "Jesus' command" to get baptized as a "public profession of faith" to Him.
 
I cannot even BEGIN to tell you all how much I have learned on this site. You all have clarified scriptures that so many people misinterpret and for that I am beyond grateful.
 
Another church I attend says that baptism in itself does not bring salvation, but is a sign that a person has "saving faith in Jesus".


Does that sound more right?
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
Hi Major!!! Long time no talk, how are you? I'm not sure if we can talk to him, it's just that everytime after service, and after the people who came up to the stage who were saved, he leaves and the helpers take over and people go to the prayer room. I've never thought to ask if we can or cannot speak to him, but he leaves the stage so I'm assuming we cannot. I think it would be a good idea for me to ask.

I went to another church where the pastor welcomed people to come talk to him after. I did, which is when I cried my eyes out telling him I didn't feel I was saved (back in early 2011), he comforted me and explained a lot. Good man. Then one of his helpers from pastoral support gave me his card if I ever needed to speak to anyone. Perhaps I should go back to that church.

Love,
Tink
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IT has been a while. Glad to see you are still with us.

My dear, it is the pastors responsibility to speak with you. It is one of if not the most important thing he MUST do. You are one of his sheep and he is the shepard. If you can not do so at a service call the church office and ask for an appointment to talk with him or ask that he come to your home and visit with you.

If none of that happens, then you realy IMO need to look for another church because you are not being served as God would have it to be done.

1 Tim. 3:1-7 give the requirements of being a pastor. Notice verse #2.
"A bishop (Pastor) then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behavior,
given to hospitality, apt to teach".

"Given to hospitality" means that he receives people warmly and treats guests generously!
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
Another church I attend says that baptism in itself does not bring salvation, but is a sign that a person has "saving faith in Jesus".


Does that sound more right?
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Tink.............water baptism has absolutly nothing to do with being saved.

It is an act of obedience and I recomend that every single person who comes to Christ does.........BUT, it does not save you!!

It is an "outward" sign to all those who know you that there has been an "inward" change in your life. It is a visible testimony that you have made a change in your life.

Actually it comes under the "Doctrine of the Church".

The literal word "baptism" comes from a verb meaning to "Identify with".

Romans 6:4 says..............
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death; that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in the newness of life".
 
dan in the lion's den said:
In an article in the Voice of the Martyrs magazine once, there was a story where a young woman who was saved and felt led to be baptized way up in the mountains of Afghanistan. She was alone and had very little water. She pour that little bit of water and baptized herself right then and there. Do you think the Lord honored this? I do.
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What the Lord honered was the sinners prayer for forgivness and asking the Lord Jesus to be her Savior.
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
Another church I attend says that baptism in itself does not bring salvation, but is a sign that a person has "saving faith in Jesus".

Does that sound more right?
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A sign? No. Usually a sign is meaning proof as the Jews did require a sign from Jesus proving Himself.

Water baptism may serve as witness that a person has saving faith in Jesus, but we are all children of God by faith in Jesus Christ: Galatians 3:26

To prove that you are a christian would be a lifelong process following His commandments, of which you can never fully prove it if it is an ongoing process.

Believers have sinned and gone astray from which many doubt they had ever been saved, but they are, even if they had stopped believing in Jesus Christ. 2 Timothy 2:11-13 It is just that they are no longer abiding in Him as they ought to as His disciples, but every one having His seal are still called to depart from iniquity and those that do not depart before God comes to judge His House ( 1 Peter 4:17 ), will become vessels unto dishonours in His House ( 2 Timothy 2:18-21 ) by being left behind from the Marriage Supper, but they are still His. ( 1 Peter 4:19 )

We are His children when we all had come to & believed in Jesus Christ, whethor or not we continue by faith in the Son of God as our Good Shepherd in enabling us to follow Him by continuing in His words as His disciples.

Saved believers are called to run that race for the high prize of calling to be that vessel unto honour in His House by His help & by His grace to attend the Marriage Supper of the Lamb in His honour before the Bridegroom comes.
 
Major said:
Tink.............water baptism has absolutly nothing to do with being saved.

It is an act of obedience and I recomend that every single person who comes to Christ does.........BUT, it does not save you!!

It is an "outward" sign to all those who know you that there has been an "inward" change in your life. It is a visible testimony that you have made a change in your life.

Actually it comes under the "Doctrine of the Church".

The literal word "baptism" comes from a verb meaning to "Identify with".

Romans 6:4 says..............
"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death; that like aI'm Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in the newness of life".
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I'm confused. ..so do you believe what my church says sbout it being "Jesus' command"? If you could read what I put from their site (the one above where you quoted, I would greatly appreciate it. I'm trying to find a place with correct teachings.
 
My mom is Catholic and recently told me that she doesn't think she needs to be born again because she feels she was always saved since an infant. I told her that in our life once we realize that we are sinners and separated from God because of it, we must receive the gift of salvation by changing our views on how we get to Heaven and ask Jesus into our lives. Telling Him that we have sinned and want Him as our Savior to direct us for the rest of our life. I've asked her to profess that she has done this but she say's that she doesn't feel that's her thing. I believe she is relying on sacraments of her religion to save her. (i.e. Baptism,Confirmation, the Eucharist,Penance) Is she saved? I would hate to just take it for granted that she is and find out that she's not.
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
I'm confused. ..so do you believe what my church says sbout it being "Jesus' command"? If you could read what I put from their site (the one above where you quoted, I would greatly appreciate it. I'm trying to find a place with correct teachings.
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Well Life, I'm sure I'll catch flack for what I'm about to say because people, for some reason, like to interject themselves between others and God. It really doesn't matter what a church believes about baptism. It only matters what YOU believe. Baptism is between you and God and no one else. The person doing the baptism is only facilitating the mechanics. They in no way qualify or disqualify this act of obedience on your part. The only thing they must do on their part is dunk you under , saying they baptize you in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. Then raise you back up. It is what YOU believe and what is going on in YOUR heart that matters. The Lord is our High Priest now. Everyone else are only facilitaters in some capacity. The baptizer needs hold no "rank". One of your athiest friends could baptize you. No one's opinion, belief or sin qualifies or disqualifies your baptism.
Feel secure in your baptism wherever you choose to have it done....it is YOUR baptism.
 
Lifeasweknowit said:
I called and they said he is a "teaching pastor" and that he can't talk to 10,000 people after every service.
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He holds 5 services is a day so I understand. However, they said they could look into me setting up an appointment with him. I think I might just go to my other church because the pastor talks to people after the service, and it's also considered a mega churh. I also think I miss read the baptism information on one of the sites, because when I called and talk to an assistant pastor they explained it was not a requirement. However, the pastor was incredibly rude. I was extremely surprised. So I called another church I attend and they were so helpful. I'm going to seek spiritual counseling now through that church.
 
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