Re-thinking "Job"

[Juk]

No, it was about cursing God, not blaming God. Job never cursed God. Even in his suffering, he wanted God to take his life before he cursed God (Job 6:8-10).

God didn't say anything about what the outcome would be, but it is inferred: i don't think God wouldn't have allowed Satan to win and boast if He thought Job would fail the test.

Yeah, I thought that I read that Job was not to blame God. I had been struggling with that for some time. But after school, I read the beginning of Job again and it said:
Job 1:11 KJV
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Be very careful with any perspective that rewrites Job such that God punished Job because of Job's sin.... It's a remnant of Prosperity Gospel/WOF that is very dangerous..... AKA - all suffering is precipitated by YOUR sin....


The basic inversion is that it turns things around in that if Job is being punished BECAUSE of his sin - then his 3 friends were RIGHT and Job was WRONG.... and thus God is therefore a liar because God himself declares Job's 3 friends as speaking WRONG things pertaining to God.... AND God is a liar because God declares Job righteous to Satan in ch. 1 and 2 - BEFORE Job was tested...


Thus ALSO - God would have no reason to restore any of Job's goods or family..... Rather, God is in effect showing His Justice - restoration of the things which were taken which Job did not deserve to lose... Think to the parable of The Rich man and Lazarus.... Lazarus had done nothing to earn his leprosy or his affliction - God was showing His Justice by restoring Lazarus' health and comfort to him which was taken away without cause.... On the other hand - The Rich man had done nothing to warrant his riches - and had abused and mistreated those "Below" him because of his perception that his riches meant he was beloved of God and Righteous... God's justice was ALSO then giving The Rich Man the affliction that he deserved but never received....

I totally disagree 100 percent and more.
First of all John since you clearly knock and disagree with anything word of faith why not simply stop talking about it. I mean no disrespect but you add stuff into this all the time.

It is not taught that God punished Job.
Job opened the door to satan himself. How ? by stepping out of faith and into fear and doubt.
Job spoke his fear constantly and stopped believing or living in faith which took him out side of the blessing which satan called a protective hedge.

Any time a believer trades in their faith for doubt or fear then they give the devil a right or shot at them that he the devil should not have had. This is not God doing anything other then allowing His word to do what he said it would do.

I do not understand why you feel the need to put down others to show what you believe is better or true. Your entire post could have simply been written with out saying a word against other ministries.
Blessings
jim

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Yeah, I thought that I read that Job was not to blame God. I had been struggling with that for some time. But after school, I read the beginning of Job again and it said:
Job 1:11 KJV
But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Juk and what did God say to satan ?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

And he never did, he praised him instead. Don't believe those who told you his suffering was his own fault. The book of Job starts off by showing you it clearly wasn't because of him.

In the land of Uz there lived a man whose name was Job. This man was blameless and upright; he feared God and shunned evil. (‭Job‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ NIV)

Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” (‭Job‬ ‭1‬:‭1, 8‬ NIV)

These events took place right after stating these facts, so it was not because of Job's sin, but rather God's holy will. I hope you've come to have a better understanding, whether through my text or someone else's.

Does it now ? Show us then

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in WORSHIP and said: “Naked I came from my mother’s womb, and naked I will depart. The Lord gave and the Lord has taken away; may the name of the Lord be PRAISED.” In all this, JOB DID NOT SIN by charging God with wrongdoing. (‭Job‬ ‭1‬:‭20-22‬ NIV)

Job didn't sin when he said this, he fell to the ground in worship. God let satan attack Job, then Job questioned God, and that's why God said "He who argues with God, let him answer."

God did not let or allow satan to attack job. Job did this himself just like many believers do today. They step out of the blessing and into flesh or another words - focus on doubt and fear and worry and so forth and leave their faith lying around doing nothing for them.

 

[Abdicate]

Okay, if that is true please give the verse where he repents of his sinful fear.

If anything I'd say Job had a true faith that trusted God's goodness even in the midst of suffering, almost like Jesus in his. Job repented because he was speaking about concepts he was too ignorant of.

You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’ Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know. “You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak; I will question you, and you shall answer me.’ My ears had heard of you but now my eyes have seen you. Therefore I despise myself and repent in dust and ashes.” (‭Job‬ ‭42‬:‭3-6‬ NIV)

Job 3:25-26 (KJV)
For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Job 3:25-26 (KJV)
For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

The thing I feared and spoke about and talked about and worried about

I stepped out of His blessing and faith over into doubt and fear where I was easy prey for the devil.

I paced the floor just like people today do all worried and upset. I could not relax nor could I sleep soundly

I ran my mouth speaking my fears and left my praise and trust and faith in God behind and look- this trouble came on me. Just what I was talking about came on me. The devil found me un-protected

Kind of self explaining dont you think ?

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

The thing I feared and spoke about and talked about and worried about

I stepped out of His blessing and faith over into doubt and fear where I was easy prey for the devil.

I paced the floor just like people today do all worried and upset. I could not relax nor could I sleep soundly

I ran my mouth speaking my fears and left my praise and trust and faith in God behind and look- this trouble came on me. Just what I was talking about came on me. The devil found me un-protected

Kind of self explaining dont you think ?

Fish, I love you man but you miss the fact that God gave satan permission and power over Job RIGHT AFTER he was said to be upright and blameless! Even if your fearful sin theory was true it wouldn't make sense to say these calamities came upon him because of it. Why? Because the fear verses you bring up come AFTER THE CALAMITIES.

Also, is God's protection dependant upon our faith? So if we are super faithful he protects us but if we are not he doesn't care anymore? Your relationship with God is one of works and you don't even realize it. God is faithful even when we are not.

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

Job 3:25-26 (KJV)
For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. I was not in safety, neither had I rest, neither was I quiet; yet trouble came.

Okay, now give me the verse where it says him fearing was a sin that he repented of, a sin so deadly it supposedly removed God's power and/or will to protect Job from satan according to Fish Catcher Jim.

This verse is after the calamaties happened, so you can't say satan was given power over him because he was fearful when it was before he even became fearful. You want to know why satan had power over Job? God gave it to him!

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. (‭Job‬ ‭1‬:‭12‬ NIV)

Satan couldn't lay a finger on Job unless God granted him permission. That is our God. He is not a distant onlooker who is upset with what his hands have made. He has a plan!

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Fish, I love you man but you miss the fact that God gave satan permission and power over Job RIGHT AFTER he was said to be upright and blameless! Even if your fearful sin theory was true it wouldn't make sense to say these calamities came upon him because of it. Why? Because the fear verses you bring up come AFTER THE CALAMITIES.

Also, is God's protection is dependant upon our faith? So if we are super faithful he protects us but if we are not he doesn't care anymore? Your relationship with God is one of works and you don't even realize it. God is faithful even when we are not.

Cosmic you are kind of getting things twisted a bit here.
NO brother all that the stuff that happened to Job came after job exchanged faith for fear.

also there is this
God did not tell the devil, "Here I put Job into your hands and you do what ever you want".
The devil was poorly mistaken to even suggest such a thing because God was in no way going to stretch out His hand against Job. God NEVER agreed with satin to what satin suggested.

HOWEVER GOD DID SAY THIS......"BEHOLD he is already in your hand"
We don't use the word Behold much at all these days. I mean when was the last time you heard some one say BEHOLD is not this car beautiful ?

Now if you look up this word "Behold" in any of the translations such as Hebrew or Greek or English or Spanish or any other translation...YOU WILL LEARN that it ALWAYS MEANS " Look and see. Wake up and pay attention"

See God was telling satan that JOB had already opened the door to him or had given satan the right to do as he wanted to do. God was simply telling the devil the truth....Job had already tore down the protective hedge around him ( the blessing of God) when he stepped out into fear and worry and doubt. HOWEVER God did sent a boundary.....spare his life or another words satin could do whatever....EXCEPT....KILL JOB...

The once satan finally grasped that Job had stepped out of or lost the blessing this protective hedge...well you know the story....satin with after job with vengeance.

Love ya Brother Cosmic
Jim

 

[Cosmicwaffle]

Cosmic you are kind of getting things twisted a bit here.
NO brother all that the stuff that happened to Job came after job exchanged faith for fear.

also there is this
God did not tell the devil, "Here I put Job into your hands and you do what ever you want".
The devil was poorly mistaken to even suggest such a thing because God was in no way going to stretch out His hand against Job. God NEVER agreed with satin to what satin suggested.

HOWEVER GOD DID SAY THIS......"BEHOLD he is already in your hand"
We don't use the word Behold much at all these days. I mean when was the last time you heard some one say BEHOLD is not this car beautiful ?

Now if you look up this word "Behold" in any of the translations such as Hebrew or Greek or English or Spanish or any other translation...YOU WILL LEARN that it ALWAYS MEANS " Look and see. Wake up and pay attention"

See God was telling satan that JOB had already opened the door to him or had given satan the right to do as he wanted to do. God was simply telling the devil the truth....Job had already tore down the protective hedge around him ( the blessing of God) when he stepped out into fear and worry and doubt. HOWEVER God did sent a boundary.....spare his life or another words satin could do whatever....EXCEPT....KILL JOB...

The once satan finally grasped that Job had stepped out of or lost the blessing this protective hedge...well you know the story....satin with after job with vengeance.

Love ya Brother Cosmic
Jim

Alright brother, I think that's as far as I'm gonna go. I don't believe having a separate theology separates us in Christ. I do however believe these are important issues, and I have already given my case.

Thanks for the discussion.

 

[Steve Campbell]

Three "friends" spend their time talking with Job about God's Transcendence, His Omnipotence and His Omniscience; until the "younger" focuses on the crux of the matter.

The pride that Job begins to display, becomes the issue really, and not the "wager" if you will, (as David Pawson puts it) between God and Satan.

We who suffer (and that's all of us, at various times and in various ways) are prone to say to God "where are you?!" We tend to become unrighteously indignant with God when He seems to not want to do things "our" way; and Job goes down that road, to his own folly.

In the end yes, God restores Job, once Job repents and re-focuses on who God is, and his inability to stand against the God of all things.

This current revisiting & study in Job has helped me to not only see that in all things, God is not surprised, unaware or unprepared; but also that it is not my place to stand in judgement over God when things go horribly wrong. It IS my "place" to be subject to Him, in all things, knowing who "He" is, and His Authority over all mankind, situation, circumstance, evil, and ungodliness.

-Soupy

 

[Juk]

Juk and what did God say to satan ?

Actually, I don't remember God replying, except to say that Satan can torment Job.

 

[Abdicate]

Okay, now give me the verse where it says him fearing was a sin that he repented of, a sin so deadly it supposedly removed God's power and/or will to protect Job from satan according to Fish Catcher Jim.

This verse is after the calamaties happened, so you can't say satan was given power over him because he was fearful when it was before he even became fearful. You want to know why satan had power over Job? God gave it to him!

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. (‭Job‬ ‭1‬:‭12‬ NIV)

Satan couldn't lay a finger on Job unless God granted him permission. That is our God. He is not a distant onlooker who is upset with what his hands have made. He has a plan!

I'm not going to waste my time, you don't want to know, you just want to argue. We've had this discussion on the other thread and rejected it then. Believe whatever you want. God bless.

 

[Penion]

Fish, I love you man but you miss the fact that God gave satan permission and power over Job RIGHT AFTER he was said to be upright and blameless! Even if your fearful sin theory was true it wouldn't make sense to say these calamities came upon him because of it. Why? Because the fear verses you bring up come AFTER THE CALAMITIES.

Also, is God's protection dependant upon our faith? So if we are super faithful he protects us but if we are not he doesn't care anymore? Your relationship with God is one of works and you don't even realize it. God is faithful even when we are not.

Cosmicwaffle,

Job was faithful just like our Lord. They both suffered terribly. I believe that God's Holy Spirit will give us the strength to bear anything He allows.

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Okay, now give me the verse where it says him fearing was a sin that he repented of, a sin so deadly it supposedly removed God's power and/or will to protect Job from satan according to Fish Catcher Jim.

This verse is after the calamaties happened, so you can't say satan was given power over him because he was fearful when it was before he even became fearful. You want to know why satan had power over Job? God gave it to him!

The Lord said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the Lord. (‭Job‬ ‭1‬:‭12‬ NIV)

Satan couldn't lay a finger on Job unless God granted him permission. That is our God. He is not a distant onlooker who is upset with what his hands have made. He has a plan!

Brother Cosmic I can not and will not asgree to yourt logic one bit.
Firsty of all I have NOT said job sinned by getting in fear. I did how ever say that his fear and doubt is what opened the door to satan.

God did not what so ever give job to satan or satan power over job BTU GOD DID SET A LIMIT TO WHAT satan COULD DO.

Now Cosmic you need to slow down for this is NOT according to me but the written word of God. If you think that operating in fear and doubt has no consequences as we step out of fasith and belief then that is something you will have to live with and one day I hope you open up your ears to hear.
Blessings
Jim

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Actually, I don't remember God replying, except to say that Satan can torment Job.[/QUOTE

Well then I guess you do not remember at all for God did not agree to satans wish or give him power over him.

 

[Juk]

12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 1:12

 

[Penion]

Brother Cosmic I can not and will not asgree to yourt logic one bit.
Firsty of all I have NOT said job sinned by getting in fear. I did how ever say that his fear and doubt is what opened the door to satan.

God did not what so ever give job to satan or satan power over job BTU GOD DID SET A LIMIT TO WHAT satan COULD DO.

Now Cosmic you need to slow down for this is NOT according to me but the written word of God. If you think that operating in fear and doubt has no consequences as we step out of fasith and belief then that is something you will have to live with and one day I hope you open up your ears to hear.
Blessings
Jim

Jim, can you help me here? Doesn't it say in James that we're supposed to have the patience of Job? Can you remember the chapter and verse?

 

[Fish Catcher Jim]

Cosmicwaffle,

Job was faithful just like our Lord. They both suffered terribly. I believe that God's Holy Spirit will give us the strength to bear anything He allows.

12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.
Job 1:12

HOWEVER GOD DID SAY THIS......"BEHOLD he is already in your hand"
We don't use the word Behold much at all these days. I mean when was the last time you heard some one say BEHOLD is not this car beautiful ?

Now if you look up this word "Behold" in any of the translations such as Hebrew or Greek or English or Spanish or any other translation...YOU WILL LEARN that it ALWAYS MEANS " Look and see. Wake up and pay attention"

See God was telling satan that JOB had already opened the door to him or had given satan the right to do as he wanted to do. God was simply telling the devil the truth....Job hadalready tore down the protective hedge around him ( the blessing of God) when hestepped out into fear and worry and doubt. HOWEVER God did sent a boundary.....sparehis life or another words satin could do whatever....EXCEPT....KILL JOB...