Restoration Of The Nation Israel

IMO, the very fact that Israel IS in Biblical prophecy is the best reason to be friends and supporters of Israel.

We don't have to stop being allies with a nation to hold it accountable for its injustices, just as when you confront a friend in love over his wrongdoing, you don't stop being his friend.
 
We don't have to stop being allies with a nation to hold it accountable for its injustices, just as when you confront a friend in love over his wrongdoing, you don't stop being his friend.

I agree totally with that.

But what "injustices" are you talking about?

Can you list a few to help me understand where you are coming from?
 
I agree totally with that.

But what "injustices" are you talking about?

Can you list a few to help me understand where you are coming from?

Well, I'll re-post the US Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor's report on the Occupied Territories from last year: http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrp...tm?year=2012&dlid=204365#sthash.X4Xnpjbz.dpuf

That particular report is fairly tame in comparison to what human rights groups claim Israel is responsible for, but it does demonstrate the complexity of the situation in those areas, and that no nation involved is innocent. It doesn't show that Israel is the worst offender out of all the stakeholders, but it does show that the IDF has much to answer for.

If you're doing research on the subject, the UN human rights commission has published a number of reports that are worth a read, which you can find on their website. http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Pages/WelcomePage.aspx (click "countries/human rights in the world" to search for country-specific reports.

But, again, I'm not here to "accuse" Israel of anything, just debunk the seemingly wideheld belief that if we entertain the possibility that Israel has done wrong, we are betraying some sort of Biblical responsibility we have to them.
 
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Well, I'll re-post the US Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights and Labor's report on the Occupied Territories from last year: http://www.state.gov/j/drl/rls/hrrp...tm?year=2012&dlid=204365#sthash.X4Xnpjbz.dpuf

That particular report is fairly tame in comparison to what human rights groups claim Israel is responsible for, but it does demonstrate the complexity of the situation in those areas, and that no nation involved is innocent. It doesn't show that Israel is the worst offender out of all the stakeholders, but it does show that the IDF has much to answer for.

If you're doing research on the subject, the UN human rights commission has published a number of reports that are worth a read, which you can find on their website. http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Pages/WelcomePage.aspx (click "countries/human rights in the world" to search for country-specific reports.

But, again, I'm not here to "accuse" Israel of anything, just debunk the seemingly wideheld belief that if we entertain the possibility that Israel has done wrong, we are betraying some sort of Biblical responsibility we have to them.

I understand but..........regardless of their past, they are still God's chosen people. That can't be escaped or explained away.

Then we also need to understand that they were not God's chosen people because they were a great and wonderful Godly nation before He chose them.

Deuteronomy 7:7-10..............
“It was not because of your being the most populous of all the peoples that Jehovah showed affection for you so that he chose you, for you were the least of all the peoples. But it was because of Jehovah’s loving you, and because of his keeping the sworn statement that he had sworn to your forefathers, that Jehovah brought you out with a strong hand, that he might redeem you from the house of slaves, from the hand of Pharaoh the king of Egypt . . .”

Jesus Christ is the ultimate reason why God chose Israel to be His special people. God did not need to have a chosen people, but He decided to do it that way. Jesus had to come from some nation of people, and God chose Israel.

He has not replaced Israel!!!

Romans 11:1 confirms that fact.
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God Forbid! For I also am an Israelite of the seed of Abraham of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not cast away His people which He foreknew."
 
I understand but..........regardless of their past, they are still God's chosen people. That can't be escaped or explained away.

Okay, but what does that mean for us on a national level? Surely not that Israel can, as a nation, expect to be exempt from repercussions for its actions. We can be allies with the nation of Israel, agree that the descendants of Abraham are still God's chosen people, and still recognise that they have done wrong and hold them as accountable as any other nation for their actions.
 
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Okay, but what does that mean for us on a national level? Surely not that Israel can, as a nation, expect to be exempt from repercussions for its actions. We can be allies with the nation of Israel, agree that the descendants of Abraham are still God's chosen people, and still recognise that they have done wrong and hold them as accountable as any other nation for their actions.

Rom. 11:26 says...........
“And so all Israel shall be saved.”

What is your understanding of that verse

Personally I take this to mean that someday the nation as a whole (not every individual); see 1 Kings 12:1; 2 Chronicles 12:1) will be converted to Christ and join the Christian church and be saved.

Context:
1 Kings 12:1.......
Rehoboam went to Shechem, for all Israel had come to Shechem to make him king."

2 Chronicles......
"When the rule of Rehoboam was established and he was strong, he abandoned the law of the Lord, and all Israel with him.


This was J. C. Ryle’s view published in 1867:
[The Jews] are kept separate that they may finally be saved, converted and restored to their own land. They are reserved and preserved, in order that God may show in them as on a platform, to angels and men, how greatly he hates sin, and yet how greatly he can forgive, and how greatly he can convert. Never will that be realized as it will in that day when “all Israel shall be saved.” (Are You Ready for the End of Time? [Ross-shire, Scotland: Christian Focus Publications, 2001], 137–138)

Some have asked and will continue to ask.........."Why is this important, who really cares?"

One reason this matters is that Paul made this claim in Rom. 11:25.......
“lest you [Gentiles] be wise in our own sight”.

Then rightly understanding the historical process of how God saves Gentiles and Jews undercuts Jewish and Gentile pride. How is this going to happen? IMO that is what makes the study of the "End Times" so compelling and interesting as it causes one to dig deep into His Word for answers and directions.

It seems to me that with the second coming of Christ there will be a great turning of Israel to Christ.
IMO that is what the Tribulation Period is all about.
Zechariah 12:10..........
“And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and pleas for mercy, so that, when they look on me, on him whom they have pierced, they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for an only child, and weep bitterly over him, as one weeps over a firstborn.”

Isaiah 66:8.................. “Who has heard such a thing? Who has seen such things? Shall a land be born in one day? Shall a nation be brought forth in one moment? For as soon as Zion was in labor she brought forth her children.”

Matthew 23:39.............where Jesus says to the hardened nation:
“I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.'”
 
Roads,

The problem I have with the reports you have presented is I find them biased, why, because there isn't a Palestinian race of people, the people illegally occupying the land of Israel today are Arabs, Arabs that settled there after 70 AD when God scattered His people for not recognizing their Messiah, when Israel was granted the right to become a nation again on May 14, 1948, the Arabs that stayed there were forced to because the Arab countries where they came from would not allow them to return, hence Israel, showing grace, allowed them to stay, to become Israeli citizens, receiving all the benefits of nationality, vote, and were even allowed to vote members into the Kennset, so how unfair is that? What was the gratitude these squatters showed to their hosts, ...they allowed the Hamas and Hezbollahs to live among them and shoot rockets at Israel, kidnap Israeli citizens and torture them, dragging their mutilated bodies behind a jeep, ...all the time these cowards are hiding behind women and children.

That revolts me and makes me angry to the very core of my being! I'm not Jewish, just an average everyday kind of guy, but that is inhumane, animalistic and I don't care what race of people perpetrate these kind of brutal crimes, ...270 UN sanctions against Israel and not one against these cowards (?) personally, I wonder and am amazed at the restraint of Israel for not wiping them off of the map.

The Arab neighbors around Israel declared war against them the day they became a nation again, three times they attacked Israel and three times they went running home with their tails between their legs, so since they couldn't defeat them face to face in war they send cowards in to do their dirty work, ...so, with the reasoning from the reports, America needs to be held accountable for nukin' Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ...it's the same logic!

Gene
 
Rom. 11:26 says...........
“And so all Israel shall be saved.”

What is your understanding of that verse

Personally I take this to mean that someday the nation as a whole (not every individual); see 1 Kings 12:1; 2 Chronicles 12:1) will be converted to Christ and join the Christian church and be saved.

I have no problems with your interpretation of that verse, I read it the same way. I suspect our difference in opinion comes when we get to Ryle's view of the Jews being "kept separate" in order for them to be saved as a nation. If this is what we believe, then we could potentially justify any action, however horrific, as a necessary step in achieving this goal of keeping Israel "separate." However, I feel that if we adopt this view, we're doing the same thing that Sarai and Abraham did when they took upon themselves to fulfill God's prophecy in Genesis 16. I agree that God can use evil for good, as in the story of Joseph. But if we agree that evil is happening, I don't think we should be a part of it. What's happening in the middle east right now is incredibly complex, and it's very difficult to understand exactly what's happening and sort out the truth from the propaganda. If you read through the reports I've posted, you'll see enough statements along the lines of "little information is available" to realize that we probably do not really fully understand what is happening right now. Even the US government reports concede that they don't really have a lot of solid information. Given that, I don't think it's right that we are just giving guns and money to Israel, and allowing them to use that particular kind of support without accountability for how they are using it. A much more ethical position would be to acknowledge that there are perpetrators and victims on all sides, and to officially support the victims.
 
The problem I have with the reports you have presented is I find them biased, why, because there isn't a Palestinian race of people

Ultimately, I don't think that we as Christians can seek to justify evil. The situation in the middle east is far more complex than what you have described here. I used to think as you do as well, but I've chosen to learn more about the situation since then. The best we can do is to keep seeking to better understand the situation, to hold perpetrators on all sides equally accountable, and support the victims on all sides.
 
I have no problems with your interpretation of that verse, I read it the same way. I suspect our difference in opinion comes when we get to Ryle's view of the Jews being "kept separate" in order for them to be saved as a nation. If this is what we believe, then we could potentially justify any action, however horrific, as a necessary step in achieving this goal of keeping Israel "separate." However, I feel that if we adopt this view, we're doing the same thing that Sarai and Abraham did when they took upon themselves to fulfill God's prophecy in Genesis 16. I agree that God can use evil for good, as in the story of Joseph. But if we agree that evil is happening, I don't think we should be a part of it. What's happening in the middle east right now is incredibly complex, and it's very difficult to understand exactly what's happening and sort out the truth from the propaganda. If you read through the reports I've posted, you'll see enough statements along the lines of "little information is available" to realize that we probably do not really fully understand what is happening right now. Even the US government reports concede that they don't really have a lot of solid information. Given that, I don't think it's right that we are just giving guns and money to Israel, and allowing them to use that particular kind of support without accountability for how they are using it. A much more ethical position would be to acknowledge that there are perpetrators and victims on all sides, and to officially support the victims.
G'day Roads,
I can agree with most of your thoughts, however I think that if Israel were to be disarmed today, there would be no Israel tomorrow. I'm not much on international politics, however I can see that the USA wants to maintain a sort of 'status quo'
With Russia arming Syria for example, the USA is forced to act to preserve Syria's prey.
 
Roads,

Please excuse me, I don't mean to be argumentative with you, but you used to think like me, so what part of what I have said isn't true? Has history changed or been rewritten?

Granted ideally all perpetrators should all be held accountable, but that ain't the way this world is run by the devil, Israel is at war, even though they don't want to be, ...in war there are causalities and innocent victims, especially when the opposing force is shielding themselves with women and children.

May I ask you a question?

Why are you finding fault with Israel, but you are silent about the atrocities committed by the Hamas and Hezbollahs?


...I guess what it all boils down to is this, ...I'm betrothed to a Jewish carpenter and His Father has a Jewish wife, I don't think it's would be too smart of me or appreciative to be bad mouthing her.

Blessings & peace,

Gene
 
Please excuse me, I don't mean to be argumentative with you, but you used to think like me, so what part of what I have said isn't true? Has history changed or been rewritten?

History is constantly being rewritten, and our understanding of it is constantly changing. What you said is part of the truth, but not necessarily the only legitimate interpretation of that part of the truth.

Why are you finding fault with Israel, but you are silent about the atrocities committed by the Hamas and Hezbollahs?

People have asked me questions like, "Ummm Roads, could you please tell me what they are doing wrong?" or "But what "injustices" are you talking about? Can you list a few to help me understand where you are coming from?" My responses shouldn't be interpreted as my siding with any particular stakeholder in that region, but as responses to those particular questions. I think there are perpetrators and victims on all sides.

...I guess what it all boils down to is this, ...I'm betrothed to a Jewish carpenter and His Father has a Jewish wife, I don't think it's would be too smart of me or appreciative to be bad mouthing her.

Is that what the Bible teaches, though? I think what it "all boils down to" is whether or not we're being obedient to God. When I see the situation in the middle east, I see victims of injustice on all sides. I see the Bible teaching us to support victims of injustice, and their nationality doesn't seem to be important in Biblical teaching.
 
Yes, you are correct history is being rewritten, now they are saying there never was a Holocaust among other things.

So I guess you didn't like my mother-in-law joke, I was trying to defuse a volatile situation and I guess you also missed my point.


Okay, let's look at what the Bible teaches, it's really very simple,

1. Israel is the apple of God's eye, His chosen people.

2. God will destroy all of Israel's enemies.

...whether we think it's just or not, whether we complain about human rights or not and whether we like it or not,

...that's what my Bible teaches.

Blessings & peace,

Gene
 
1. Israel is the apple of God's eye, His chosen people.

2. God will destroy all of Israel's enemies.

What is your concern here, Gene? Do you worry that by offering by offering relief universally to all civilian victims on all sides we are making ourselves enemies of Israel? Or are you saying that offering relief to the civilians in countries where enemies of Israel operate from is futile in the context of their inevitable destruction?
 
..so, with the reasoning from the reports, America needs to be held accountable for nukin' Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ...it's the same logic!

maybe am unclear with what that statement implies: the use of atomic bombs in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is right/ justified?
 
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Roads,

The problem I have with the reports you have presented is I find them biased, why, because there isn't a Palestinian race of people, the people illegally occupying the land of Israel today are Arabs, Arabs that settled there after 70 AD when God scattered His people for not recognizing their Messiah, when Israel was granted the right to become a nation again on May 14, 1948, the Arabs that stayed there were forced to because the Arab countries where they came from would not allow them to return, hence Israel, showing grace, allowed them to stay, to become Israeli citizens, receiving all the benefits of nationality, vote, and were even allowed to vote members into the Kennset, so how unfair is that? What was the gratitude these squatters showed to their hosts, ...they allowed the Hamas and Hezbollahs to live among them and shoot rockets at Israel, kidnap Israeli citizens and torture them, dragging their mutilated bodies behind a jeep, ...all the time these cowards are hiding behind women and children.

That revolts me and makes me angry to the very core of my being! I'm not Jewish, just an average everyday kind of guy, but that is inhumane, animalistic and I don't care what race of people perpetrate these kind of brutal crimes, ...270 UN sanctions against Israel and not one against these cowards (?) personally, I wonder and am amazed at the restraint of Israel for not wiping them off of the map.

The Arab neighbors around Israel declared war against them the day they became a nation again, three times they attacked Israel and three times they went running home with their tails between their legs, so since they couldn't defeat them face to face in war they send cowards in to do their dirty work, ...so, with the reasoning from the reports, America needs to be held accountable for nukin' Hiroshima and Nagasaki, ...it's the same logic!

Gene
Good observation Gene.
 
G'day Roads,
I can agree with most of your thoughts, however I think that if Israel were to be disarmed today, there would be no Israel tomorrow. I'm not much on international politics, however I can see that the USA wants to maintain a sort of 'status quo'
With Russia arming Syria for example, the USA is forced to act to preserve Syria's prey.

And if no believes that........consider what happened the next day after Israel was given the Land in 1948.
 
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