Restoration Of The Nation Israel

G'day Roads,
I can agree with most of your thoughts, however I think that if Israel were to be disarmed today, there would be no Israel tomorrow. I'm not much on international politics, however I can see that the USA wants to maintain a sort of 'status quo'
With Russia arming Syria for example, the USA is forced to act to preserve Syria's prey.

Yeah, I would have to agree with that. Well, maybe not about the USA's motivation for involvement in that region. If you ever do want to learn more about international politics in that region, to understand the USA's motivation/investment in the region, you have to go back to what happened between Britain, the US, and Iran in 1952-53, then follow history from there.

But yeah, I agree that Israel would be overthrown without the ability to defend itself. That's why I'm not advocating for the disarmament of Israel. What I am advocating for is accountability for the way Israel uses the support it receives. While I agree that Israel does need to defend itself from a real threat, I also think it's reductionist and naive to view Israel as being totally innocent, and only acting in self defense.
 
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Roads, my friend, let me try to explain where I'm coming from.

From the day I was born again in July of '86 until this very moment as I'm typing this response I have a deep longing, a profound yearning to go to Israel, to visit the Promised Land, ...to walk through the ruins of the synagog at Capernaum where my Lord gave His first sermon, to visit the cliffs of Gadarenes, to climb to the top of Mount Herman where the Shekina Glory of God could no longer be contained and burst through His human body, to visit Jerusalem, walk through Hezekiah's tunnel, to stand in front of the walled up Eastern Gate, the Gate Beautiful where my Lord would enter into the city, to walk up the Mount of Olives and try to imagine where the Son of Man, who had no home, had laid His head, reclined His body in sleep..., but, alas, Father has placed me on the opposite side of the world from where I long to visit, probably because He knows that if I ever did make it there I would never leave, so I content myself with looking for that city that has foundations that are not made with human hands,

...now back to reality, our church is situated right next to the Synagog here, on Saturdays when we are cleaning I can go outside and listen to the men singing to Yahweh in Hebrew, I can hear them reading from their Torah and frankly it gives me goosebumps, tingles run up and down my spine, when I see a Jewish man outside I always greet him with Shalom, his eyes sparkle, a smile spreads across his face when he hears it, we talk for a minute and my mind races back through the tunnel of time, standing in front of me is a direct descendant of my adoptive Father Abraham, a grandson of Seth, yes, out of this great love I have for them I've tried reasoning with them from Daniel 9, but as Paul taught me, there is a veil over Israel today, I hold in my tears as I consider this blindness has come on them to allow a wretched Gentile like me to be grafted into their root stock, to know personally and have a relationship with the God they are singing to...

I hope you can see, dear friend, every ounce of my being, every cell in my body loves Israel and her people, there is no way I could ever say, do or think anything bad against them, no matter what they have done, condemn them in any way, because, that's how their God looks at/sees me. ...so, I hope you can see it is futile for us to continue this discussion, I respect your right to your beliefs and opinions, hopefully you understand me a little better.

Have a good day in the Lord,

Blessings,

Gene
 
past actions.....such as?

How about Pearl Harbor,

...now let's see if I can remember my American history from high school, ...the Japanese military was defeated, they were ready to surrender, it was their emperor who refused, President Roosevelt had died and Harry Truman took office, the war was dumped onto his lap, he was briefed about America's secret Manhattan Project, and it was his decision the best thing was to put a end to the war with the least number of American causalities, Japan was warned in advance, leaflets were dropped, their emperor was warned, but in his pride he laughed, so Little Boy tumbled of of the bomb bay of the Enola Gay on the unsuspecting people of Hiroshima, after that nightmare of destruction the emperor still refused to surrender so the Fat Man fell on Nagasaki (our history teacher had served in the Navy and he was there, off the coast of Japan, when these events happened).

Gene
 
I hope you can see, dear friend, every ounce of my being, every cell in my body loves Israel and her people, there is no way I could ever say, do or think anything bad against them, no matter what they have done, condemn them in any way, because, that's how their God looks at/sees me.

Do you think God sees them the same way that you do, that He would never "do or think anything bad against them, no matter what they have done, condemn them in any way" (with Biblical evidence)? God sees you that way because you've confessed your sin, declared Christ as your Lord, and turned from your previous life. Obviously you have a strong heart for the Hebrew people. Perhaps, though, consider that the love you feel in that instance is only a fraction of the love that God feels for the people in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and the "squatters" in the occupied territories. Christ loved them enough to die for them. Surely that is significant enough for us also to act in love toward those peoples.

I'll also ask a question I can't say I really know the answer for. But if Jewish people deny Christ as being God, when they pray, are they really praying to the same God you pray to? If yes, how do you know? Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses all claim to pray to the God of the Old Testament (or the Torah anyway, in the case of Muslims). How do you know, if they deny that Christ is God, that "their God" is actually the God of the Old Testament, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. I guess another way to phrase the question is, is it possible for someone to completely reject and deny Christ, but still have a relationship with Him, pray to Him and worship Him?

I appreciate that you respect my viewpoints, and I also respect yours. But also, as a Christian, I have no rights to my beliefs or opinions; I must seek to constantly conform to a Spirit-led worldview. So while I do respect your beliefs, I also want to offer the challenge that what you believe about the Hebrew people -- and particularly the implications of those beliefs -- may not be what the Bible actually teaches.
 
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The use of the bombs was justified by the past actions of the Japanese.
One thing I firmly believe is that we should not ever sit in judgment of earlier generations. The second world war generation is not the generation of today. We can and should learn from them but we must never condemningly judge them. This goes for the condemning of Israel for their bloody conquests thousands of year ago. We might not act now as they acted then, but we were not there to feel or experience the social, economic, political and religious influences that existed then.
Perhaps this is embodied in Jesus' words to the then generation of Jewry when He said: Matt 12: 41,42 The men of Nineveh will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and behold, something greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something greater than Solomon is here.
We can and should learn from earlier generations, but it is they who can judge us because of the foundations they have laid for us.
So, you are right to say that Japan was nuked by the then US administration because of the situation then pertaining, but we can only learn from that and not condemn.
 
Major, I hung my last post on a quoting of you, and the 25 minute edit window has closed. I was not suggesting that you were condemning of anybody, just nattering in general:)
 
Roads,

Do you think God sees them the same way that you do, that He would never "do or think anything bad against them, no matter what they have done, condemn them in any way"

He is God, I'm a man, we don't think alike,

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, Isa 55:8, 9

We are called to a ministry of reconciliation, not condemnation,

And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. 2Co 5:18, 19

Do you have children, when they misbehave do you disown them or do you discipline them and after they have repented welcome them with open arms back into the fellowship of the family.

Israel is in a time of discipline so that we Gentiles have the opportunity too be saved, that doesn't mean God has given up on them or doesn't love them anymore, now suppose a stranger disciplined your child, how would you feel, it's okay for you to discipline them, but not anyone else, and that is the position you are expounding, that the Gentiles discipline Israel when Father has purposely put them on the bench for our sake.

Perhaps, though, consider that the love you feel in that instance is only a fraction of the love that God feels for the people in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and the "squatters" in the occupied territories. Christ loved them enough to die for them. Surely that is significant enough for us also to act in love toward those peoples.

No doubt the love God has for people is more than I/we can feel or express, but, look at your own life, do you love the people you are ministering to? Now, do you love your wife the same or is it more intense, I'm certain it's more intense, why, because you chose her, just like God chose to set His love on Israel, He loves the other people of the world, John 3:16 confirms that, but Israel has a special place in His heart.

I'll also ask a question I can't say I really know the answer for. But if Jewish people deny Christ as being God, when they pray, are they really praying to the same God you pray to? If yes, how do you know? Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses all claim to pray to the God of the Old Testament (or the Torah anyway, in the case of Muslims). How do you know, if they deny that Christ is God, that "their God" is actually the God of the Old Testament, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. I guess another way to phrase the question is, is it possible for someone to completely reject and deny Christ, but still have a relationship with Him, pray to Him and worship Him?

Jewish people that are not a part of the faithful remnant that are saved in the church are praying to the devil, Jesus affirms that,

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
John 8:42, 44

No one can have a relationship with the Father if they reject Jesus Christ, no matter what ideology or religion they practice,

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me. John 8:42

As for my worldview, I don't have the authority or right to interfere in the worlds problems because I'm no longer a citizen of this world, Paul clearly teaches we are citizens of Heaven,

For our citizenship is in Heaven, from which also we are looking for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, Php 3:20

Now that doesn't free us from obligations to the country where we reside or to be a shining witness in our community, but Paul states we are Christ's ambassadors,

Then we are ambassadors on behalf of Christ,

ambassadors don't become involved in the affairs of their host country and neither should we, but rather our work as representatives of the Kingdom of God is,

...as God exhorting through us, we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 2Co 5:20

So, you tell me, if it's God working through us as His ambassadors to exhort the Gentiles in our community to be reconciled to God, where in the New Testament does He tell us to judge Israel, His chosen people?

Blessings,

Gene
 
M

Mr. Darby

Guest
I think all of this is simply resolved in the end by the fact of God's longsuffering love. Israel as a nation is an enemy to the gospel, so we should not be surprised if they do evil actions. Romans 11:28,29;

"As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance."

As Christians, we have an obligation to seek the conversion of Jews and Muslim Arabs. We should be aware of where Israel stands in relation to God's promises, but should not give them a free pass for everything they do because of that. On the other hand, we cannot ally ourselves to those causes that would deny what God has said concerning Israel out of a sense for 'social justice'.

Israel is grafted out, but there is coming a day when "it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God." Hosea 1:10

I think that the current events of the world are leading to setting up the stage for the time of Jacob's trouble. At that time God will recompense Israel for her sins, and then bring about her salvation. But in the meantime, we'd better be careful how we treat them. They are beloved for the fathers' sake.
 
On the other hand, we cannot ally ourselves to those causes that would deny what God has said concerning Israel out of a sense for 'social justice'.

I can't think of any such cause in social justice circles. I think I may know what you're implying here, but consider that Abraham and Sarai also wondered if they could deny what God prophesied to them, and in taking matters into their own hands, they attempted to fulfill God's prophesies on their own, in a disobedient, unethical way. I can see how what's going in in the middle east right now could potentially lead to the fulfillment of Biblical prophesy about Israel. I can also see how it might not. I don't know. The Bible is clear on how we should treat the poor and suffering, and it's clear right now who those people are. If we take part in injustice, even injustice carried out by Israel, won't we be culpable, and share in Israel's judgement? I think avoiding participation in injustice is a fairly clear Biblical directive. It seems to me that it's better to aim for justice than knowingly participating in injustice.

But in the meantime, we'd better be careful how we treat them. They are beloved for the fathers' sake.

Where "we" means "nations," I agree in the sense that we had better be careful how we treat anyone. We shouldn't act unjustly toward Israel, or anyone else. I'm certainly not advocating that we treat Israel poorly, or that we should treat anyone poorly.

Where "we" means "the church" or "individual Christians," where we're less likely to have any real impact on affairs of state, I don't think there's any real risk of mistreating Israel. I'm not advocating a new crusade or anything. I'm saying when we do go out into the world as Christians, the ethnicity of the people we're serving is totally irrelevant. Is there some way I'm not aware of that Christians aren't "being careful" about how they're treating Israel?
 
For our citizenship is in Heaven, from which also we are looking for the Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, Php 3:20

Now that doesn't free us from obligations to the country where we reside or to be a shining witness in our community, but Paul states we are Christ's ambassadors,

Then we are ambassadors on behalf of Christ,

ambassadors don't become involved in the affairs of their host country and neither should we, but rather our work as representatives of the Kingdom of God is,

...as God exhorting through us, we beseech you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 2Co 5:20

So, you tell me, if it's God working through us as His ambassadors to exhort the Gentiles in our community to be reconciled to God, where in the New Testament does He tell us to judge Israel, His chosen people?

I suppose there terms "us" and "we" are somewhat problematic here, as sometimes they've been used as "our nation(s)" and sometimes "the church" or "individual Christians."

I'm just going to let go the discussion about whether or not "we" (individual Christians) should be "involved in the affairs of our host country." I can't say the Bible gives clear teaching that we shouldn't. I strongly suspect that you're using the analogy of "ambassador" in a way that was never intended. It doesn't really matter here, I'm letting it go. But let's just use "we" exclusively as "our nation(s)" here. Does the Bible say that "we" should judge Israel? I'm not sure the Bible really gives a lot of clear direction on the setting of foreign policy. I don't see anything in the Bible that clearly states there would be a problem with doing so, or that any nation should should fear the wrath of God for doing so. Anyway, "nations" don't consider the Bible when they're making decisions. I guess we can safely assume that our nations will judge Israel, since they don't have any reason not to. I don't think the US is going to start bombing Israeli cities in the foreseeable future. They may try putting political pressure on Israel to stop, say, torturing prisoners or something. Should "we" (the Church) have a problem with that?

"We" as "the church" have no directive at all to judge any nation. We give the gospel to all nations. We address need wherever it exists. You ask where the Bible tells "us" to judge Israel; where does it tell us to judge any nation? The lack of a directive to "judge" hardly prohibits "us" (nations) from responding to injustice. And it hardly instructs "us" all (Christians) to prioritise/show favoritism to Israel in our ministry. You are absolutely right that "We are called to a ministry of reconciliation, not condemnation." So what does that mean for "us" (Christians/the church) and the nations where enemies of Israel are operating from?
 
I hope you can see, dear friend, every ounce of my being, every cell in my body loves Israel and her people, there is no way I could ever say, do or think anything bad against them, no matter what they have done, condemn them in any way, because, that's how their God looks at/sees me.

Hey again Gene, I noticed you "liked" Mr Darby's post where he wrote:


I think all of this is simply resolved in the end by the fact of God's longsuffering love. Israel as a nation is an enemy to the gospel, so we should not be surprised if they do evil actions.

...

As Christians, we have an obligation to seek the conversion of Jews and Muslim Arabs. We should be aware of where Israel stands in relation to God's promises, but should not give them a free pass for everything they do because of that.

I'm curious about whether or not you agree on those points?
 
One thing I firmly believe is that we should not ever sit in judgment of earlier generations. The second world war generation is not the generation of today. We can and should learn from them but we must never condemningly judge them.

Thanks, I agree on that….

I thought I can contain a just war in my briefcase…more so how a war is carried out… of what went on the life and mind of each individual , involved, affected..

it is a big case…. or better, how small is my briefcase….. or, better, I humbly realize i have no business to carry that judge of a briefcase : )
 
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Major, I hung my last post on a quoting of you, and the 25 minute edit window has closed. I was not suggesting that you were condemning of anybody, just nattering in general:)

I understood calvin but thanks for the imput.

Just to be clear though, the USA used the nuclear option in WW2 because they learned from the tenacity and warrior mentality of the Japanese during the war that they would never surrender. They would fight to the last man, woman and child if we invaded and they would lead to at least 500 thousand Americans being killed. That is why the USA used the bombs. They killed untold number of Japenese but they saved untold numbers of Americans.
 
Roads, my friend, let me try to explain where I'm coming from.

From the day I was born again in July of '86 until this very moment as I'm typing this response I have a deep longing, a profound yearning to go to Israel, to visit the Promised Land, ...to walk through the ruins of the synagog at Capernaum where my Lord gave His first sermon, to visit the cliffs of Gadarenes, to climb to the top of Mount Herman where the Shekina Glory of God could no longer be contained and burst through His human body, to visit Jerusalem, walk through Hezekiah's tunnel, to stand in front of the walled up Eastern Gate, the Gate Beautiful where my Lord would enter into the city, to walk up the Mount of Olives and try to imagine where the Son of Man, who had no home, had laid His head, reclined His body in sleep..., but, alas, Father has placed me on the opposite side of the world from where I long to visit, probably because He knows that if I ever did make it there I would never leave, so I content myself with looking for that city that has foundations that are not made with human hands,

...now back to reality, our church is situated right next to the Synagog here, on Saturdays when we are cleaning I can go outside and listen to the men singing to Yahweh in Hebrew, I can hear them reading from their Torah and frankly it gives me goosebumps, tingles run up and down my spine, when I see a Jewish man outside I always greet him with Shalom, his eyes sparkle, a smile spreads across his face when he hears it, we talk for a minute and my mind races back through the tunnel of time, standing in front of me is a direct descendant of my adoptive Father Abraham, a grandson of Seth, yes, out of this great love I have for them I've tried reasoning with them from Daniel 9, but as Paul taught me, there is a veil over Israel today, I hold in my tears as I consider this blindness has come on them to allow a wretched Gentile like me to be grafted into their root stock, to know personally and have a relationship with the God they are singing to...

I hope you can see, dear friend, every ounce of my being, every cell in my body loves Israel and her people, there is no way I could ever say, do or think anything bad against them, no matter what they have done, condemn them in any way, because, that's how their God looks at/sees me. ...so, I hope you can see it is futile for us to continue this discussion, I respect your right to your beliefs and opinions, hopefully you understand me a little better.

Have a good day in the Lord,

Blessings,

Gene

Born in 1986?? My, you are just a baby!!!!
 
past actions.....such as?

That my brother is a loaded question. The Japanese were vicious warriors who comitted many, many attracities during the war.

1.
The historian Chalmers Johnson has written that:
The Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Malays, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians and Burmese, and at least 23 million ethnic Chinese.

2.
Only 56 Chinese POWs were released after the surrender of Japan. After March 20, 1943, the Japanese Navy was under orders to execute all prisoners taken at sea.

3.
The most infamous incident during this period was the Nanking Massacre of 1937–38, when, according to the findings of the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, the Japanese Army massacred as many as 300,000 civilians and prisoners of war.

4.
(From the book: "General Ishii Shiro: His Legacy is that of Genius and Madman".

The Japanese, to determine the treatment of frostbite, prisoners were taken outside in freezing weather and left with exposed arms, periodically drenched with water until frozen solid. The arm was later amputated; the doctor would repeat the process on the victim's upper arm to the shoulder. After both arms were gone, the doctors moved on to the legs until only a head and torso remained. The victim was then used for plague and pathogens experiments.

THis is only a few of the hundreds and hundreds of documented caes of the Japanese actions during WW2.
 
Born in 1986?? My, you are just a baby!!!!

Yep, I'm 27 years old in the Lord working on more number of years than I can count (whoa, typing that blew my mind), born the first time in '49, died in '86, born second time in '86 never to die again. Whoppie PTL

Roads, I'm home for lunch, so I'll have to answer your question when I have more time.

Blessings,

Gene
 
One thing I firmly believe is that we should not ever sit in judgment of earlier generations. The second world war generation is not the generation of today. We can and should learn from them but we must never condemningly judge them.

Sure. But doubting a government's "official story" is not the same as condemning an entire generation. Plenty of people from that generation, including US military and government officials, also doubted the official story, and criticised the use of nuclear weapons before and after the bombings.
 
M

Mr. Darby

Guest
A lot of what I have read casts doubt on the official story of Pearl Harbor and the decision to use the A bomb on Japan. The Japanese offered to surrender twice before the bomb was dropped, only to have the offers of surrender refused by the Truman Administration. Also, it appears that Roosevelt had prior knowledge of the planned Japanese attack and took no action to prevent it in order to have a pretext to declare war. I would recommend John V. Denson's book A Century of War. You can get it free here:
http://mises.org/books/century.pdf . (The book covers the Civil War and the World Wars.)

I guess I must say that I do not believe there have been any divinely sanctioned wars that our nation has been involved in.
 
Believers need to support the "Remnant" of Israel and not the state of Israel. Believers should take care to bless the state of Israel and pray for their peace but our financial support needs to be funded primarily into Jewish evangelism and not Jewish refugee missions that fly Jews to Israel. Keep in mind that throughout Israel's existence only a minority of her people were faithful to Jehovah and at one point there were only seven thousand saved Jews within the nation (in Elijah's day).
Flying Jewish refugees to Israel without sharing the good news of Messiah with them is just delivering them to the land for the tribulation period. The bible teaches that there will be no second coming until the nation of Israel asks Jesus to return, until that happens He will not come again. By sharing the gospel with the Jews even if they reject it, they might be among those during the tribulation who do get saved and will share in the ministry of the 144 thousand Jewish virgin evangelists who's work will save multitudes.
 
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