Revelation

[Major]

you are entitled to what you posted and believe and i can respect that yes for the most agree .. i seldom say agree to someone doing a rev study. i sit back and listen and ponder

Just so that you understand my brother.....what I am posting comes more from many years of study under men such as Dr. Walvoord and Dr. Dwight Pentecost among many others than it does from me personally. So I do hope that you will agree with those men as I do not know of anyone who has more knowledge on this subject than those two men.

Thank you for your comment and I hope that in some way you will be able to use the information in the future.

 

[Major]

REVELATION 4:1-2...........
"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, “Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.”

This section begins a new section of......""Things that shall be hereafter" (vs. 1:19).

Now, "most" people who do Bible study agree that there is indeed a "catching away/gathering or Rapture". That is not really a point of debate. The TIMING of that event is what is hard to place.
It Bible theology there are at least 4 views of this event..........

1. There is NO such thing as a Rapture.

2. Pre-tribulation view = The rapture occurs before the 7 year tribulation period begins.
Rev 3:10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon
all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
Here, Jesus refers to the tribulation period. If believers are to be saved from the tribulation, the rapture has to precede the
tribulation!

3. Mid-tribulation view =“The rapture occurs at the middle of the 7 year tribulation period.
There are several weaknesses in this view.
A. One is that the two witnesses are Jews who have come to minister to the Jews in
Jerusalem, and not church age believers.
B. Another issue is that this view overlooks the fact that Rev 4:1-3 shows the apostle John(a church age believer) being taken up to
heaven as an illustration of the rapture of the saints.

4. Post-tribulation view = “The rapture occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation period.”
There are many problems with this view: Two of them are -
A. The most obvious one is that Jesus promised to keep believers from the time of trial (Rev 3:10).
This promise would be broken if Jesus came after a large number of the church age believers were martyred.
B. This leaves no time for the believers to visit the Father’s house, and no time for the judgment seat of Christ.

It seems to me that 4:1 is a perfect picture of this event.

1. "Come up hither"! This phrase is seen 3 times in Scripture.
A. Proverbs 25:7.
B. Revelation 4:1.
C. Revelation 19:11.

2. Heaven opens two times in the Revelation. 4:1 and 19:11.
A. In Rev. 4:1.........somebody GOES UP!
B. In Rev. 19:11.....somebody COMES DOWN!

Lets consider 1 Thess. 4:16.............
"For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first".

Verse #2............."I was in the Spirit" means that John was unable to make a mistake or an error in his writing.

"Rainbow" ........means the mercy of God's promise, no flood!!!

Verse #3............."Emerald green" is the color of life.

What we are reading is what John saw and he is IN the Throne Room of God! He is a witness to the glory of God.

 

[forgiven61]

Just so that you understand my brother.....what I am posting comes more from many years of study under men such as Dr. Walvoord and Dr. Dwight Pentecost among many others than it does from me personally. So I do hope that you will agree with those men as I do not know of anyone who has more knowledge on this subject than those two men.

Thank you for your comment and I hope that in some way you will be able to use the information in the future.

i dont know much at all about the 2 men .that dont matter.. when i run across something that . does not throw up red flags i take closer look at it / my biggest turn off is the one who says they have all the answers. the rest are wrong . there is a study program on our local christian radio called politics and religion a Ervin Baxter was founder he died from covid his son n law is the host now.. they get pretty far out there

 

[forgiven61]

Now, "most" people who do Bible study agree that there is indeed a "catching away/gathering or Rapture

yes David Jeremiah teaches pre trib i say be ready but im sure your aware but pretrib goes by the church is no longer after chapter 3

 

[forgiven61]

4. Post-tribulation view = “The rapture occurs at the end of the 7 year tribulation period.”
There are many problems with this view: Two of them are -
A. The most obvious one is that Jesus promised to keep believers from the time of trial (Rev 3:10).
This promise would be broken if Jesus came after a large number of the church age believers were martyred.
B. This leaves no time for the believers to visit the Father’s house, and no time for the judgment seat of Christ.

It seems to me that 4:1 is a perfect picture of this event.

agree

 

[Major]

yes David Jeremiah teaches pre trib i say be ready but im sure your aware but pretrib goes by the church is no longer after chapter 3

Correct.

The last time the word CHURCH is seen in the book of the Revelation is chapter 3:22.

In 4:1 the seen is the Throne Room of God and there in verse #4 appears to be the saints of God.

 

[Major]

i dont know much at all about the 2 men .that dont matter.. when i run across something that . does not throw up red flags i take closer look at it / my biggest turn off is the one who says they have all the answers. the rest are wrong . there is a study program on our local christian radio called politics and religion a Ervin Baxter was founder he died from covid his son n law is the host now.. they get pretty far out there

I would highly reccomend to you to obtain the works of Dr. Walvrood and Pentecost! There are NO other men who can come close to their interpretations and teachings.

 

[forgiven61]

Correct.

The last time the word CHURCH is seen in the book of the Revelation is chapter 3:22.

In 4:1 the seen is the Throne Room of God and there in verse #4 appears to be the saints of God.

i do lean towards pre trib. but i have to say the things we are exercising at this very moment our nation and world is very much bible based . at this very moment we are in 3 huge major war fronts Russia Ukraine and nato if Europe will hold together .2. Taiwan and china with the united sates saying they will back Taiwan . Iran and Israel once again the united states backing Israel. yes it says war rumors wars but the end is not yet. one of these three will trigger the powder keg first 2 with nukes . we are in tribulation no i dont advocate were in great tribulation.. but regardless the end could come at anytime . folks best be prepared the church at Sardis and the Luke warm church Laodicea is the Church age we are in at present.
this age as we know it could very well be it.. i will say your outline on sardis has stirred me up for Sunday in fact this sunday far as i know i finish the Methodist Church . and with the Lord help/leading it will be a finish that i hope they remember . i also will say it be the Lord will i will take the same message back to the church i pastor. very odd i have never done this .i am waiting on the Lord this is not bragging this is very serious times we live in.

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[Musicmaster]

yes David Jeremiah teaches pre trib i say be ready but im sure your aware but pretrib goes by the church is no longer after chapter 3

Interestingly, the purpose for the Tribulation is telling in itself. Christ is going to 'reveal' Himself to an unbelieving world, and to His unbelieving, chosen people Israel. He doesn't need to 'reveal' Himself to the Church, for the Church is already His, and is following Him already.

When we study the purpose behind what the Lord does and will do, we see who the intended recipients are.

Good stuff.

MM

 

[forgiven61]

, for the Church is already His, and is following Him already

they are his but not all the church is following . let me say that depends on who you ask

 

[forgiven61]

Good stuff.

at that it is..

 

[Musicmaster]

they are his but not all the church is following . let me say that depends on who you ask

Hi, f61.

When you say "...not all the church," that is a reference to church organizations, and I agree with that. Many churches have gone astray in various ways.

When it comes to the (C)hurch (capital C), there are no unbelievers or lukewarm people in the (C)hurch (the TRUE body of Christ).

That's my take on it all.

MM

 

[forgiven61]

Hi, f61.

When you say "...not all the church," that is a reference to church organizations, and I agree with that. Many churches have gone astray in various ways.

When it comes to the (C)hurch (capital C), there are no unbelievers or lukewarm people in the (C)hurch (the TRUE body of Christ).

That's my take on it all.

MM

even those in the preference of meeting you favor have same issue man has not changed

When it comes to the (C)hurch (capital C), there are no unbelievers or lukewarm people in the (C)hurch (the TRUE body of Christ).

so the luke warm church in rev was not a church ? what about the dead church not sure i am agreeing in the dead church there still was few who was alive he told them remember what they learned

 

[Musicmaster]

so the luke warm church in rev was not a church ? what about the dead church not sure i am agreeing in the dead church there still was few who was alive he told them remember what they learned

That (c)hurch in Revelation was indeed a (c)hurch. When I indicate the (C)hurch, that is a reference to ALL TRUE believers who are already well established in Christ without compromises.

Remember, f61, not everyone who attends (c)hurches are saved. Going to church saves nobody, as you likely would agree. It is only Christ who can save. Those who are truly saved will not be counted among the number of the lukewarm who attend man-made churches.

MM

 

[forgiven61]

That (c)hurch in Revelation was indeed a (c)hurch. When I indicate the (C)hurch, that is a reference to ALL TRUE believers who are already well established in Christ without compromises.

Remember, f61, not everyone who attends (c)hurches are saved. Going to church saves nobody, as you likely would agree. It is only Christ who can save. Those who are truly saved will not be counted among the number of the lukewarm who attend man-made churches.

MM

i fully understand the true Church i also know not everyone who says lord lord i bring this out often there will always be tares among the wheat . a person can be truly saved and at some point get lax /luke warm to being spewed out.. i dont necessary see that as not ever saved or no longer / for one to be no longer would be a complete denial of Christ apostate. so attending a church is not my disagreement .even though i am supporter of the local assembly

understand it is some what of a disagreement which none of us are going to be %100 on things.. but its more of a discussion if it were of bad disagreement i would walk away from the post.

 

[Major]

i do lean towards pre trib. but i have to say the things we are exercising at this very moment our nation and world is very much bible based . at this very moment we are in 3 huge major war fronts Russia Ukraine and nato if Europe will hold together .2. Taiwan and china with the united sates saying they will back Taiwan . Iran and Israel once again the united states backing Israel. yes it says war rumors wars but the end is not yet. one of these three will trigger the powder keg first 2 with nukes . we are in tribulation no i dont advocate were in great tribulation.. but regardless the end could come at anytime . folks best be prepared the church at Sardis and the Luke warm church Laodicea is the Church age we are in at present.
this age as we know it could very well be it.. i will say your outline on sardis has stirred me up for Sunday in fact this sunday far as i know i finish the Methodist Church . and with the Lord help/leading it will be a finish that i hope they remember . i also will say it be the Lord will i will take the same message back to the church i pastor. very odd i have never done this .i am waiting on the Lord this is not bragging this is very serious times we live in.

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You said...........".we are in tribulation no i dont advocate were in great tribulation.. "

I think that you have misunderstood the Bible work in Escotology concerning TRIBULAION.
The length of the Tribulation is seven years. This is determined by an understanding of the seventy weeks of Daniel (Daniel 9:24-27; )

God said in In Matthew 24:21,
"For then there will be a Great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall."

In this verse Jesus is referring to the event of Matthew 24:15, which describes the revealing of the abomination of desolation, the man also known as the Antichrist.

The GREAT Tribulation is the last 3 and 1.2 years of the 7 year Tribulation. The 1st 3 and 1/2 years will be "peace" and then the A/C will declare himself to be God in the Temple = "Abomination of Desolation" and that event starts the GREAT tribulation.

Also referring to the Great Tribulation in Jerem. 30:7.........
"Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s distress, But he will be saved from it."

The phrase “Jacob’s distress” refers to the nation of Israel, which will experience persecution and natural disasters such as have never before been seen.

In Daniel 9:26-27, we find that this man will make a "covenant" (a peace pact) with the world for seven years (one “week”; again, see the article on the Tribulation). Halfway through the seven-year period—"in the middle of the week"—we are told this man will break the covenant he made, stopping sacrifice and grain offering, which specifically refers to his actions in the rebuilt temple of the future. Revelation 13:1-10 gives even more detail concerning the Beast’s actions, and just as important, it also verifies the length of time he will be in power. Revelation 13:5 says he will be in power for 42 months, which is three and one-half years, the length of the Great Tribulation.

 

[Major]

Interestingly, the purpose for the Tribulation is telling in itself. Christ is going to 'reveal' Himself to an unbelieving world, and to His unbelieving, chosen people Israel. He doesn't need to 'reveal' Himself to the Church, for the Church is already His, and is following Him already.

When we study the purpose behind what the Lord does and will do, we see who the intended recipients are.

Good stuff.

MM

Absolutly the key point!

they are his but not all the church is following . let me say that depends on who you ask

It is not about a "Church". That is an ambiguous that is misapplied. Born Again Believers should be the term used.

Going to a Church only gives you a vote at their business meeting and Christ is coming for the blood washed!

 

[forgiven61]

You said...........".we are in tribulation no i dont advocate were in great tribulation.. "

Easy there you put the word Great tribulation ..i said we are in tribulation

John 16:33​

“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”
we are in tribulation what do you call covid high fuel prices wars rumors of wars a rotten economy ? your gnat straining jumping to conclusion's.. you adding what you assume i am speaking of . this world is in tribulation i never said the great tribulation .it all falls with Paul writing perilous times all this is leading up to end time events .

It is not about a "Church". That is an ambiguous that is misapplied. Born Again Believers should be the term used.

Going to a Church only gives you a vote at their business meeting and Christ is coming for the blood washed!

STOP STOP STOP do you honestly think i dont know what the true Church is? you know what i feel is ambiguous ? is your assumption of what i am saying. brother i dont need a lecture. when i sue the term church it= to the body of Christ which is= people/ human beings . see the church of Sardis had some still spiritually alive But they also had dead spiritually people that was addressed as the church

so i use the word Church i am not a novice by any means . i have been a student of the Bible for some 27 years . before that i was a practicing heathen .i am crude in speech i say what i mean ..

i am sorry for the way i came off but i was looking to engage a discussion with m.m but honestly i was enjoying this up till this point.. you stepped on a nerve . i recognize your years of study and yes there are areas you understand more than me.. they call that growth and no two people are on the same level.
plz refrain from proof reading my post until you know exactly what i mean.. if i sound of base feel free to ask me to clarify what i am saying. i will put in terms any one can understand
much like the discussion i been having on face book about abortion . i told 2 different ones who told me abortion was a med procedure . i told them unless its a real life emergency its Murder !


as per end time chain events having to take place be fore the rapture ..Christ can return and take his Bride at any given time then the chain of events of Hell on earth like no body has ever seen will happen ..i am a pan millennialist live your life for Jesus it will all pan out.


sunday i will go to two different churches and address two church bodies aka congregations

 

[Major]

Easy there you put the word Great tribulation ..i said we are in tribulation

John 16:33​

“These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.”
we are in tribulation what do you call covid high fuel prices wars rumors of wars a rotten economy ? your gnat straining jumping to conclusion's.. you adding what you assume i am speaking of . this world is in tribulation i never said the great tribulation .it all falls with Paul writing perilous times all this is leading up to end time events .



STOP STOP STOP do you honestly think i dont know what the true Church is? you know what i feel is ambiguous ? is your assumption of what i am saying. brother i dont need a lecture. when i sue the term church it= to the body of Christ which is= people/ human beings . see the church of Sardis had some still spiritually alive But they also had dead spiritually people that was addressed as the church

so i use the word Church i am not a novice by any means . i have been a student of the Bible for some 27 years . before that i was a practicing heathen .i am crude in speech i say what i mean ..

i am sorry for the way i came off but i was looking to engage a discussion with m.m but honestly i was enjoying this up till this point.. you stepped on a nerve . i recognize your years of study and yes there are areas you understand more than me.. they call that growth and no two people are on the same level.
plz refrain from proof reading my post until you know exactly what i mean.. if i sound of base feel free to ask me to clarify what i am saying. i will put in terms any one can understand
much like the discussion i been having on face book about abortion . i told 2 different ones who told me abortion was a med procedure . i told them unless its a real life emergency its Murder !


as per end time chain events having to take place be fore the rapture ..Christ can return and take his Bride at any given time then the chain of events of Hell on earth like no body has ever seen will happen ..i am a pan millennialist live your life for Jesus it will all pan out.


sunday i will go to two different churches and address two church bodies aka congregations

Again, you exact words were.............."..".we are in tribulation no i dont advocate were in great tribulation.. "!

What we/the world is in is NOT what the Bible is referring to as "Tribulation". What is happening to day is what has happened for the last 2000 years. Ups and downs of economic failures. There has always been wars and rumors of wars. There has always been pandemics. That is for sure tribulation, however, it is NOT the Tribulation that the Bible speaks of that will come in the last 7 years. THAT Tribulation is .........
"Jacobs Trouble" and it is focused on ISRAEL. It will be felt world wide but centered in ISRAEL.

You said...............
"your gnat straining jumping to conclusion's.. you adding what you assume i am speaking of . this world is in tribulation i never said the great tribulation .it all falls with Paul writing perilous times all this is leading up to end time events . "

Do YOU really think that is the kind of responce a Christian Pastors should be saying??????

Honestly, and with love and respect......you come across to me as if you are wanting to be confrontational and argumentative on purpose. Maybe that is just your nature, but that is what is being projected by you.

NO ONE expecially me wants to be divisive and argue over these things.

Perfect example................You said =
"STOP STOP STOP do you honestly think i dont know what the true Church is? you know what i feel is ambiguous ? is your assumption of what i am saying. brother i dont need a lecture."

I do not know what you think! I do not know what you know. I did not lecture you. I simply made a comment that YOU for some reason made personal.

 

[Major]

REVELATION 4:3
"And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold."

The Bible does not give us a clear answer as to who these 24 elders are.
There are several theories and all of them hold their own merit.

Elders are "Representees".

The two most common thought are...........
1. They are the 24 orders of the Levitical Priesthood. The Levites who were not priests were given various duties in the caretaking of the
tabernacle and its furnishings. Aaron was the 1st Levite priest and The priests among the Levites were given the immeasurable privilege of
doing service in the tabernacle. The Levitical priests also served as judges and teachers of God’s law.

The negative against this thought is that the Levitical priesthood was never intended to be permanent (Heb. 7:11). The death of Christ put an
end to the Old Covenant and the Levitical priesthood, as evidenced by the rending of the temple veil.

2. They represent the 12 Tribes of Israel PLUS the 12 Apostles.

Some things to consider........the Greek word translated here as “elders” is never used to refer to angels, only to men, particularly to men of a certain age who are mature and able to rule the Church.

The word translated “crown” here refers to the victor’s crown, worn by those who have successfully competed and won the victory, as Christ promised.

What we do know for sure is that they DO NOT represent the 144 thousand JW'S as they teach their followers.

The elders cannot represent tribulation saints for the same reason—not all had yet been converted at the time of John’s vision.

If the Rapture did take place between chapter 3 and 4 then a very good idea would be that they represent the totality of the church in heaven.

Whatever and whoever they are.....they are at rest, sitting, wearing the cloths of white and a victors crown.