Salvation By Faith Alone Verses Works Based Salvation.

[God calls me Olivia]

I can't reconcile in my mind how ''works'' do not lead to faith, to salvation. James 4:8 comes before real faith / 2 Cor 5:17.

The concept 'works based salvation' is clearly erroneous as 1. Drawing closer to God does not = salvation and 2. Shipwrecking salvation doesn't take place because of a lack of works.

I can't help the feeling that Ixoye is being accused of Judaism whilst it is simply an Arminian type view.

Each person is given a measure of faith which is enough faith for salvation.

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. 3For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith" (Romans 12:2-3).

However, it is up to each individual how much they use this measure of faith. Submission to God's will requires action on our part, but it is action by faith rather than action according to one's own mustering of self will. Even unbelievers can do acts and works that appear to be God's will, however they are not God's will when there is no faith in them and when there is no faith in them they are done from self righteousness rather than the perfect righteousness of God. Works done by faith are done by God's Spirit working through the believer in perfect righteousness from God.

"Everything that is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23).

One can use a tiny portion of their measure of faith (little faith) or use a lot of their faith (great faith) or varying degrees in between. The more one uses their faith the more easy it is to use because they have learned to use their faith rather than rely on themselves. Some can have great faith in some areas where they truly trust God and other areas where they lack faith. Through sanctification God teaches us to use our faith more and more submitting to him more and more. This does not save us, but if someone uses their faith only once for a salvation experience and then never uses it again, they won't endure and shouldn't be surprised that their faith gets shipwrecked.

The faith is by faith.

"holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith" (1 Timothy 1:19).

 

[ixoye_8]

I can't reconcile in my mind how ''works'' do not lead to faith, to salvation. James 4:8 comes before real faith / 2 Cor 5:17.

The concept 'works based salvation' is clearly erroneous as 1. Drawing closer to God does not = salvation and 2. Shipwrecking salvation doesn't take place because of a lack of works.

I can't help the feeling that Ixoye is being accused of Judaism whilst it is simply an Arminian type view.

what in your opinion shipwrecked the faith of those in Matthew 7 & 25 (Lord, Lord who healed, cast out demons and prophesied all in the name of Jesus) and even the rich young ruler (who was not "complete") who believed, but could not obey Jesus' commandment He gave us ???

 

[ixoye_8]

I can't reconcile in my mind how ''works'' do not lead to faith, to salvation. James 4:8 comes before real faith / 2 Cor 5:17.

The concept 'works based salvation' is clearly erroneous as 1. Drawing closer to God does not = salvation and 2. Shipwrecking salvation doesn't take place because of a lack of works.

I can't help the feeling that Ixoye is being accused of Judaism whilst it is simply an Arminian type view.

what in your opinion shipwrecked the faith of those in Matthew 7 & 25 (Lord, Lord who healed, cast out demons and prophesied all in the name of Jesus) and even the rich young ruler (who was not "complete") who believed, but could not obey Jesus' commandment He gave us ???

 

[ixoye_8]

I can't reconcile in my mind how ''works'' do not lead to faith, to salvation. James 4:8 comes before real faith / 2 Cor 5:17.

The concept 'works based salvation' is clearly erroneous as 1. Drawing closer to God does not = salvation and 2. Shipwrecking salvation doesn't take place because of a lack of works.

AGREED .. work based salvation is erroneous ..
AND .. faith based salvation is also erroneous ..
FAITH AND WORKS based salvation is correct ..

I can't help the feeling that Ixoye is being accused of Judaism whilst it is simply an Arminian type view.

what in your opinion shipwrecked the faith of those in Matthew 7 & 25 (Lord, Lord who healed, cast out demons and prophesied all in the name of Jesus) and even the rich young ruler (who was not "complete") who believed, but could not obey Jesus' commandment He gave us ???

as I said before, works are a commandment, hence to be void of them when the opportunity is there, is a sin ..

Jhn 3:36
“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”

Rom 2:8
but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.

Rom 6:16
Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Heb 5:9
And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation,

2Th 1:8
dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus.

IT DOES NOT SAY DOES NOT BELIEVE, IT SAYS DOES NOT OBEY

 

[Ravindran]

Let's look at it mathematically! I am not bringing in regeneration (which would be between justification and sanctification) for the sake of this discussion

Salvation = Justification + Sanctification

Justification = Result of faith in Jesus Christ as Savior
Sanctification = Work of Holy Spirit in a person's live.. Molding to the image of Christ

Works = Outcome of sanctification process. So in a way, we can say sanctification = works & justification = faith.

Does it mean, Salvation = Faith + works?

Right thing would be, Salvation = Faith (+ works)

A person could accept Jesus Christ in the last minute of his or her life and spend eternity in heaven.. Just like the thief on cross.. He cannot claim any works! So in his case, clearly salvation = faith. And that's it..

The bigger problem comes when someone claims, Justification = Faith + Works. I think we all have ruled this out.. Just saying..

 

[ixoye_8]

I see the exclusion of the two (which work together) as a form of not wanting to be responsible for your words and deeds .. Jesus took responsibility for our former words and deeds at the point of belief, but what we do after that is OUR responsibility ..

that is like two people confessing trust & love in each other ..
fine .. it is accepted ..
then the one person decides they no longer have to demonstrate their love and no longer do .. it is a natural thing IF YOU HAVE TRUST/FAITH in a person to give them more then just lip service .. if your TRUST/FAITH consist of "lip service" only .. I would say you are lying and do NOT TRULY LOVE .. and are just saying it because your ego wants something ..

how about if your love is only luke-warm ???
will he "spit you out" for it ???
Jesus said yes ..
"you can have all faith to move mountains, but if you do not have love (which is confirmed through action not words) then you are NOTHING" ..

your faith without works is indeed dead ..

 

[ixoye_8]

I agree with you that works is a byproduct of faith ..
and faith is not a byproduct of works ..
and WHY the guy asked "what do I need to be complete" ..

the answer was "works" .. don't tell me you love me .. show me by giving away what I know you hold dear .. so the guy LOVED his money more and did not love God "with his ALL or neighbor as self" .. God does test us on IF our love is ALL by our actions/deeds .. the same as He tested Abraham to PROVE THROUGH ACTION on what he held dear (his son) if he would OBEY .. God may not actually require it of you, but you MUST be willing to SHOW Him, not just say you would ..

 

[ixoye_8]

A person could accept Jesus Christ in the last minute of his or her life and spend eternity in heaven.. Just like the thief on cross.. He cannot claim any works! So in his case, clearly salvation = faith. And that's it..

I disagree .. the thief on the cross ..
1st he repented .. "we are guilty and deserve this" ..
2nd then he showed belief .. "He is the son of God" ..
3rd then he had works .. he testified publicly for Jesus ..
the thing is God reads hearts .. so the thief was given a clean slate and the "desire in his heart" was that of a Christians .. so even if you have but that single works to prove your faith, he still did not have any works contrary, and WHY Paul says "escaping as through fire" .. not much for, but nothing against ..

 

[Major]

I can't reconcile in my mind how ''works'' do not lead to faith, to salvation. James 4:8 comes before real faith / 2 Cor 5:17.

The concept 'works based salvation' is clearly erroneous as 1. Drawing closer to God does not = salvation and 2. Shipwrecking salvation doesn't take place because of a lack of works.

I can't help the feeling that Ixoye is being accused of Judaism whilst it is simply an Arminian type view.

IT is faith that leads to works isn't it? When we have faith in Christ we will WANT to do works for Him. That is servitude.

 

[ixoye_8]

IT is faith that leads to works isn't it? When we have faith in Christ we will WANT to do works for Him. That is servitude.

agreed ..
and it is servitude .. but that servitude is not a given, or those in Matthew 25 would not have received condemnation for "lack of works/disobedience" ..

so were they "faithful or not in servitude" is by what they were judged ..
the same as the stewards who were either "faithful or not with the resources given them to invest and yield fruit/profit" ..

1Pe 1:17
If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;

 

[ixoye_8]

Rom 3:20
because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

note: first one needs to understand when Paul brings up "works" in Romans' he is speaking to the Hebrews about "works of the law of Moses" .. so we must have FAITH in Jesus and what He did ..

Rom 3:25
whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith. This was to demonstrate His righteousness, because in the forbearance of God He passed over the sins previously committed;

that part is important, as it clearly says "previously committed" (not sins we will commit)
so we automatically receive a clean slate to start over with at the point of acceptance ..

Rom 3:4
May it never be! Rather, let God be found true, though every man be found a liar, as it is written, “THAT YOU MAY BE JUSTIFIED IN YOUR WORDS,
AND PREVAIL WHEN YOU ARE JUDGED.”

so indeed all who will receive salvation, will receive it by Grace/Mercy .. because God did NOT even have to offer salvation .. but that does not mean that a person obeyed/faithful in servitude ..

 

[Mitspa]

This is a simple subject to understand...the works are wrought in faith according to the law of faith. They are works of faith plain and simple...not works of the law or of religion... Rahab was a Harlot who lied..to fulfill the "works" James is speaking of... Now I don't suggest anyone be a harlot or lie...but God used this example to prove He was not speaking of "works" of mans moral ability.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

 

[Where is the Messiah]

IT is faith that leads to works isn't it? When we have faith in Christ we will WANT to do works for Him. That is servitude.

Amen, this is the truth.

 

[ixoye_8]

Amen, this is the truth.

indeed faith leads to works .. but not always ..
because faith does not always increase your love/obedience to "the Law of Love" ..
you can have faith/trust in a partner, but that does not mean you automatically love or obey them .. Ananias is a good example of that ..

 

[ixoye_8]

curious .. we know Rahab was a harlot before .. but there is nothing to say she continued as such .. actually it says she got married .. so to assume she continued in that is a very BIG assumption .. nor can I find where it says she lied ..

 

[ixoye_8]

curious .. we know Rahab was a harlot before .. but there is nothing to say she continued as such .. actually it says she got married .. so to assume she continued in that is a very BIG assumption .. nor can I find where it says she lied ..

Jesus always said "go and sin no more" .. now WHY would He say that if it didn't matter ???
the Father said "I an holy therefore you are to be holy" .. now WHY would He say that if it didn't matter ???

 

[Where is the Messiah]

I thought we are talking about faith in God.

 

[ixoye_8]

I thought we are talking about faith in God.

what is faith ???
belief and trust ???
if you believe in, and trust in (have faith in) then you SHOULD also believe, trust and have faith enough to LOVE him and obedience to his command to love Him and others as the outward expression (confirmation) of that .. and WHY every branch that does NOT bear good fruit (works of love) is cut down and thrown into the fire ..

this is exactly what Jesus meant when He said "hears my words and acts on them" ..
or James meant when he said be "doers of the word" not merely hearers who delude themselves ..

 

[ixoye_8]

Eph 2:8 For by grace (MERCY) are ye saved through faith; (BECAUSE GOD DID NOT HAVE TO CREATE A PATH OUT FOR US) and that not of yourselves: (BECAUSE OUR WORKS STILL WOULD NOT PAY THE PUNISHMENT FOR SIN , WHICH IS DEATH) it is the gift of God: (THAT HE WENT TO THE CROSS FOR US)
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (BECAUSE ONLY HIS DEATH & RESURRECTION TAKES AWAY SIN)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, (CREATED TO DO WHAT ???) which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (GOD ORDAINED THAT WE ARE TO DO "GOOD WORKS" SO SAYS PAUL AS WELL)

 

[God calls me Olivia]

Eph 2:8 For by grace (MERCY) are ye saved through faith; (BECAUSE GOD DID NOT HAVE TO CREATE A PATH OUT FOR US) and that not of yourselves: (BECAUSE OUR WORKS STILL WOULD NOT PAY THE PUNISHMENT FOR SIN , WHICH US DEATH) it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. (BECAUSE ONLY HIS DEATH & RESURRECTION TAKES AWAY SIN)
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, (CREATED TO DO WHAT ???) which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. (GOD ORDAINED THAT WE ARE TO DO "GOOD WORKS" SO SAYS PAUL AS WELL)

I have used these very verses with you. The point that made me make this thread is that you have said that you don't have salvation until the end which only happens if you did works. Do you now hold a different opinion?