Ixoye, I have several times brought up to you that believers do works because when they live by faith they are compelled by the Spirit rather than trying to prove their self righteousness and you have argued against me every time. Have you changed your mind?
Salvation By Faith Alone Verses Works Based Salvation.
- Thread starter God calls me Olivia
- Start date
Thank you for your comments Olivia.
You said, "If the believer were not completely perfected already in God's Spirit through salvation and justification which allows the union of perfection with imperfection then the Holy Spirit would be united with imperfection and thus be imperfect making God imperfect through their union with God. The Holy Spirit only has perfection within. A believer is fully justified."
This statement is somewhat confusing. This is an if / then statement. Your statement says, if the believer is not perfected already, then the Holy Spirit would be united with imperfection. Your conclusion is then that if the believer is imperfect, then Gods union with that believer makes Him imperfect.
Could you kindly provide bible verses to back up these assertion? Thanks.
p.s. Justification, Sanctification, and Glorification are all separate things. Salvation does not take place until we obtain the promise. That is something yet future at Jesus second coming. The bible is clear as crystal on this.
the verse enforces what I have been saying ..
salvation is granted upon endurance in your faith and love (run the good race) ..
as Paul says .. a contract is NOT in force while the one who made it is alive ..
I hold the exact same opinion which is reiterated over and over by Jesus and all the Apostles who wrote ..
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Jesus gave parable after parable and Ananias is another good example that believers do NOT necessarily do good works because they have faith .. you actually HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD .. IF they live by faith and do NOT just profess it .. I know way too many who profess it and don't live by it .. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE .. thank you ..
it is NOT about proving it (even though it does) it is about a covenant of Love .. THESE WORKS ARE A LABOR OF LOVE ..
IF YOU LOVE .. YOU DO .. YET NOT ALL DO .. HENCE PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS AGAINST THE COVENANT OF LOVE ..
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2Co 7:1
Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
why does Paul say to believers "to cleanse ourselves of body and spirit, so as to perfect holiness in the fear of the Lord" if we are NOW perfected ???
no .. having the love (indwelling) of the HS is not a mismatch .. it is COMPASSION ..
the same as God loved you while you were yet a sinner IS COMPASSION ..
what about what Paul said in Hebrews .. those with the HS and have tasted the gifts ..
HOW COULD THEY FALL AWAY IF THEY WERE PERFECTED ALREADY, AND HAD THE HS ???
God "seals you" but that "seal" equates to an approval .. not a guarantee of what you let into your heart .. and WHY I always say "guard your heart" .. do you expect God to control your heart too ???
if that was so, then God would not be seeking love from us .. because love is NOT love unless freely given from your heart ..
HOW COULD THEY FALL AWAY IF THEY WERE PERFECTED ALREADY, AND HAD THE HS ???
God "seals you" but that "seal" equates to an approval .. not a guarantee of what you let into your heart .. and WHY I always say "guard your heart" .. do you expect God to control your heart too ???
if that was so, then God would not be seeking love from us .. because love is NOT love unless freely given from your heart ..
I agree, but only once we have faith in God and that that leads to living works. Our works / effort / desire to please lead to real faith in God.
Think about it. I could be helping the elderly whilst completely oblivious to Jesus. God would see that as religion undefiled James 1:27 and draw nearer / reveal Himself to me, as those works are drawing nearer to Him even without any faith.
1. Works / draw near to God = 2. God reveals more of Himself / draws nearer to us / tests our mind and hearts sincerity = 3. real faith / Jesus comes in = 4. living works / servitude / pleasing God.
Thinking we can jump from 1 to 4 is Judaism. 1,2,3,4 is Arminian. 2 to 4 is Calvinism.
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Paul talks a lot on constantly judging and evaluating ourselves to ensure we are saved. 1 Phil 2:12, 1 Cor 11:31.
Paul knows we cannot perfect our holiness, otherwise he wouldn't have said 1 Tim 1:15. Paul is talking about being / getting confident in our salvation. Perfecting our holiness = perfecting our Christianity = judging ourselves harsher on our actions and hearts intent, to ensure we are saved.
We can all agree that perfecting holiness is not acheived by attending church every week, paying tithes, wearing a crucifix, praying 5 times a day and a full hour at lunch. Hence its just disagreeing on OSAS vs Arminian views really...
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She was a Harlot who lied...as James used her as an example of faith that works... Read your bible. There is no way James intended all this religious nonsense that has came from the misuse of these passages. Read the bible in context or else you will be led into a "con"... James gave a HARLOT who lied as the example of a working faith. Plain and simple.
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Yes....that was my first thought as well.
Do you remember that question I asked you awhile back about how some things that appear so simple are made to be very difficult for others to grasp????? It is almost like some people go out of their way to produce something irrevelent
I believe that they were judged just like we all will be judged and that is by faith in the finished work of Jesus on the cross.
Once we do that, service comes easy and lovingly for us to do. IF that does not happen then we would be in that group who were not saved and Jesus said...."depart from me ye workers of iniquity---I never knew you".
The statement may be confusing to you because what I am saying is that in Christ the believer is perfect, but when walking in the flesh the believer is imperfect. Faith is what saves us. Our faith is not only in Christ paying for our sins for justification so we can be saved from wrath, but is also in being made a new perfected creation in Christ.
"Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:a The old has gone, the new is here! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sinb for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:17-21).
We are reconciled because we are made to be God's righteousness. Yet as you can see the old has already gone and the new has already come. The reconciliation has occurred because we are already righteous.
"put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth" (Ephesians 4:24).
A person puts on the new self by faith because if it is not by faith it is sin and not righteousness. "Everything that is not of faith is sin" (Romans 14:23).
"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection" (Romans 6:4).
"put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth" (Colossians 3:10).
"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5).
What is this renewal? Not perfecting, but a continuous life from God, a continuous awakening from God. Rather than the same truth being stagnant it is alive renewed moment to moment, just as someone can read the same bible verse and get deeper and deeper meaning from it comparing new scriptures and continually getting new life from it for the word or God is living.
This renewal however is not one time or stagnant.
"Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind" (Romans 12:2).
In God's Spirit the believer is in a continuous state of perfection being renewed moment to moment which compels them to love, give, rejoice, obey, etc., verses out of God's Spirit in works is a stagnant state of being for it is set in doing for obedience, rather than obeying because Christ's love compels the person.
The believer vacillates between the Spirit and the flesh learning to submit to God more and more by faith (and God's will and beliefs) and less and less being in one's own will and beliefs as they learn to trust God fully in every area. The point is that in God's Spirit we are really having faith in God's faith regarding us. God created us to be with Him as perfected beings, not to have us as imperfect beings with Him. In the Holy Spirit God's faith is in us as we are meant to be, which is the truth of who we are if we by faith believe in God's truth. When out of His Spirit (walking in self will) people believe evil about themselves and thus do evil (for the unsaved this is true, but for the saved their sins have been removed). The truth is that if believers believed what God believed about them they would be perfect because they would act completely from His Spirit and thus always be doing His will for Him and not be doing their own will from their own beliefs about the world and self.
Salvation which is being saved from wrath and condemnation for one's sins. Justification is justice is served which occurs because Jesus paid for the penalty of our injustices (sins). Justification is necessary for salvation and occurs through faith in what God has done and faith in the results for us because of what God has done. We are justified by the blood of Jesus, not our own works.
"Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!" (Romans 5:9-10).
We have already been justified by his blood. The future tense shown as saved is because the judgment has not already occurred. Nevertheless, because we are justified we are saved from the wrath and condemnation. This has nothing to do with works saving us later. The salvation is based on the justification only which is by faith.
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith--and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).
Saved past tense which I just explained the difference of why one is shall be and one is past tense.
Sanctification (being made holy) is nothing more than the believer learning to abide more and more in the Holy Spirit who teaches them along with the Father and Jesus to know the truth of God's life, love, holiness, purity, and truth. When we do God's will by faith and love because God's righteousness fills us with that faith and love to compel us (rather than doing it because we have to get saved) we are abiding in God which is the only way to produce fruit. The believers holiness is God's holiness.
"Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me" (John 15:4).
The fruit is righteous fruit and cannot be done by one's own self.
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control" (Galatians 5:22-23).
Bearing fruit comes from being in faith that allows us to rest in God so that He is the full determiner of our decisions. In this He fills our minds with His thoughts and even will give us words to speak when it is His will to do so. When we abide in God we are essentially acting as one body, His body, from His mind, heart, and Spirit. This is very different than doing works to get saved or justified.
Our new glorified bodies is a completely different subject that has nothing to do with works, so I am not sure why you brought it up but I am happy to discuss it with you if you want.
Because salvation does not happen until glorification, the final step in the process. That is when the redemption is complete. If your loved one is held hostage, you may perhaps give money for a ransom in exchange for his life. But your loved one is not saved until you physically come to collect on your payment.
Question: 21God made him who had no sin to be sinb for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God" (2 Corinthians 5:17-21).
Why does Paul say that we "MIGHT *** BECOME"the righteousness of God instead of saying that "in Him we ARE the righteousness of God?"
This is talking about something done in the past so that we would become. That is we would become upon salvation the righteousness of Christ since the work of Christ was already done in the past.
It does not say God is sin for us so we can become. You are reading the verse incorrectly and my proof is by the other verses I have shown you like:
"if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:a The old has gone, the new is here!" (2 Corinthians 5:17). present tense
"put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth" (Ephesians 4:24). present tense you can only put on that which is here.
"he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit" (Titus 3:5) past tense. Salvation already done.
It is like saying, "I bought my child school books so he could go to school." Some one could be making that statement after the child went to school explaining what they had done in the past.
That is a good explanation. Your right, it could be interpreted that way. However, In the greater context, I believe it refers to something future. With that said he says might become, why might?
Notice Titus 3:5 when Paul says He "saved" us, it indeed indicates that he did so past tense. In this sense, this is referring to justification. Titus 3:7 shows this, "
7 so that being justified by his grace (past/justification) we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. (future/salvation/progressive sanctification)"
Therefore, salvation is the absolute completion of the matter. It is the total restoration of us to Him.
God Bless,
MoG
MoG,
I think it would be helpful for you to study what redemption was in the time of Paul, there are three different meanings and each one is important, but only one of them pertains to us, ...we have the right to call ourselves sons of God, John 1:12, so I ask you, when did your child become your son, at birth or is he waiting 'til he dies to be recognized as your child?
Here is another dilemma with your theory, I think you will agree when we are born again the Holy Spirit takes up residence inside of us, so if we don't know 'til the end if we are saved or not, what happens if you are not saved at the end, ...Jesus said the Spirit will never leave us, was He lying?
Blessings,
Gene
I think it would be helpful for you to study what redemption was in the time of Paul, there are three different meanings and each one is important, but only one of them pertains to us, ...we have the right to call ourselves sons of God, John 1:12, so I ask you, when did your child become your son, at birth or is he waiting 'til he dies to be recognized as your child?
Here is another dilemma with your theory, I think you will agree when we are born again the Holy Spirit takes up residence inside of us, so if we don't know 'til the end if we are saved or not, what happens if you are not saved at the end, ...Jesus said the Spirit will never leave us, was He lying?
Blessings,
Gene
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
There is no "might" in this passage...there is no question being suggested in the Greek! the very word translated "might" most often in the KJV is a word that means to "be empowered" unto something and is not a word of question as we would understand the word in our modern English. But that word itself is not used in this passage and no question is being suggested in the Greek in any way! Your translation is a very poor one at best and a work of satan in its reading of this scripture....
Many versions have shall, however I agree with Mitspa that I always saw it as being empowered to be heirs because we are justified.
Without justification it is impossible to be an heir, with justification we now have the ability to be the heir.
Only two versions have might. It may help you to compare the versions.
It is interesting that the two versions that use the word might, NIV and ESV, use the word may in this verse which I think furthers what I am saying about now having the ability.
"For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant" (Hebrews 9:15 NIV).
They may receive it because Christ died.
"Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.h 16For where a will is involved, the death of the one who made it must be established. 17For a will takes effect only at death, since it is not in force as long as the one who made it is alive" (Hebrews 9:15-17 ESV).
Christ had to die (past tense) for people to be able to have the inheritance because of His shed blood and death.