Salvation

[Saint_Augustine]

Man's Free Will to do Good or Evil

Throughout Scripture the Bible continuously instructs mankind to make righteous decisions by free will.

No, it doesn't. I'd like some evidence that is the case.

Many persons misinterpret a few verses to arrive at the false idea that mankind does not have a free will to do good or make righteous decisions.

That may be the case with some people, but I do not believe in free will because there is no evidence, Biblical or otherwise, that humans possess free will.

Below are some verses which strongly show that mankind has the responsibility to exercise their free will and is commanded by God to do so.

Wishful thinking.

Deuteronomy 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 "in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 "I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong [your] days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess. 19 "I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live

Sorry. That does not, in any way, establish people have free will; that merely declares people have a choice, life or death, to obey God or to disobey Him. Choices do not imply free will; they merely imply choice. The main issue is what determines the choices that someone makes.

John 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

I have no idea what the relevance to posting that verse is.

 

[Puppet]

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

So yes, the Faith must come first

Thankfully, even that faith is a gift! God is so very good to us.

 

[jubilee4774]

I'm confused. Isn't free will the same as "choice"? We make a choice as to whether to obey God or not. Just like Adam and Eve made a choice to disobey.

Maybe you could tell me what you mean by "free will".
Here are some definitions I found:

from Wikipedia:

The principle of free will has religious, ethical, and scientific implications. For example, in the religious realm, free will may imply that an omnipotent divinity does not assert its power over individual will and choices.

From www.dictionary.com:

free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.

From American Heritage Dictionary:

1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to remain behind of my own free will.
2. The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.

 

[Puppet]

Jubillee,

Can you find any verses that say we have free will? I don't think there are any. Nevertheless, we all make choices daily.

When God awakens us spiritually, we choose spiritual life! Read Ephesians 2:8-10 again. Do you see how salvation is of God? He is mighty to save. We cannot do it. He gives us everything! He is so very good to us.

 

[jubilee4774]

Puppet,

I completly agree that we are saved by grace. That was not the issue I was bringing up.

To my knowledge there are no verses in the bible that say anything about free will. However, there are many verses where people made choices to disobey (and to obey) God. It seemed like we digressed into a discussion on semantics of free will vs. choice. The only point I was making is that it seems that they are the same thing . . .

 

[violet]

This has been puzzling to me too. I know that God created us with a free will. When God knocks at our heart we have the choice of accepting His calling or rejecting it. However, the Bible clearly says that man is born spiritually blind, having no fear of God. What makes some people run to His arms while others keep on rejecting Him, I don't know, but believe it has to be God's doing. But why God adopt some people and not others? I don't know.

I think God calls out to everyone since he loves us all but some choose to reject him.​

 

[Puppet]

There is a difference between free will and choice. They are not the same at all.

We do have a will, and that will makes choices. Daily, I decide many things: what to cook my family for dinner, what words I will use to say things, what to read or do. We are free to choose what we desire.

God never forces a person against their will. I have heard many say, "God is a gentleman". But that is not what I mean here. As humans, our natures determine our choices and our will.

When Saul was converted on the road to Damascus, God did not compel him to edify the church instead of persecuting it. He added a new factor of inward grace in his soul, consequently Paul changed his decision. God may renew the will but He never coerces it.

When one converts, we make a decision. I shy away from that term because in modern jargon a 'decision' has come to be identified with an outward expression, such as raising the hand or going forward to the front. While such external acts have nothing to do with forgiveness of sins, the heart must make a decision to be saved.

Man does have a will, it is not independent of all influences nor supreme over all other parts of his personality. Consider, for example, if I place two bowls in front of a hungry person, one filled with dirt, one filled with strawberries. You know which one he will choose, and so do I. Because he is hungry, he will choose the strawberries. That is a poor analogy of how God can cause us to choose what He wants for us. When the time is right, He will quicken or awake us spiritually, so that we choose Him.

Our natures determine our choices. A spiritually person dead in sin will always choose sin. A person whom God awakens spiritually will choose salvation.

Learning about church history will teach a lot, so does reading Augustine and Pelagius, Martin Luther and Erasmus, councils and creeds. Most of the councils had to be convened to deal with the heretics of the day. Because of them, we do not have to reinvent the wheel of the foundations for our faith.

The more I learn, the more I know I don't know.

 

[violet]

Free will is being able to freely choose without any force
and
choosing is making a decision anong more than one option.​

 

[Puppet]

Violet,

Before one is saved, are they completely free from God? Your definition of free will sounds as if that is what you think free will is. People are completely free from God and His influences?

If that is your understanding of free will, then God is not Sovereign and cannot control anything unbelievers do, which flies in the face of scripture. God uses unbelievers to achieve His will. He used Pharaoh, He used pagan nations and kings.

 

[smellycat]

God gives you his way,your free to choose .motives God knows us.thats why some will say i taught for you ,but if they teach for own gain without a pure heart they will not be worthy.

 

[violet]

Violet,

Before one is saved, are they completely free from God? Your definition of free will sounds as if that is what you think free will is. People are completely free from God and His influences?

If that is your understanding of free will, then God is not Sovereign and cannot control anything unbelievers do, which flies in the face of scripture. God uses unbelievers to achieve His will. He used Pharaoh, He used pagan nations and kings.

Hi Puppet.
What I was saying is that free will is having the ability to choose.
I'm not sure how you got what you did from my short definitions.

Free will doesn't provide choices in all things.
My children might have free will in the kitchen.
If all I have is peanut butter there is no choice to be made.

I was merely agreeing that free will and choosing are not the same, as you stated above.

To answer your question though, I don't believe anyone is free from God.
We all have to answer to him someday.
We can never be free of him.
But we can choose to serve him or not.

If I have not answered what you were asking, please ask me again!
Blessings,​

 

[Puppet]

Thanks, Violet, for the clarification.

 

[violet]

You are welcome, Dear Puppet~​

 

[Boanerges(Inactive)]

It is really quite simple-"those He foreknew predestined "- God knew all your choices before you were even born- He saw those who would be His and has planned, provided and directed your path so you would find Him- He still moves heaven and earth to bring a single soul into His kingdom- so we may choose but God ultimately knows what our choices are and in His faithfullness He won't miss a single person who would have Him- after all were created to fellowship with Him! Mny blessings Larry

 

[GordonSlocum]

It is really quite simple-"those He foreknew predestined "- God knew all your choices before you were even born- He saw those who would be His and has planned, provided and directed your path so you would find Him- He still moves heaven and earth to bring a single soul into His kingdom- so we may choose but God ultimately knows what our choices are and in His faithfullness He won't miss a single person who would have Him- after all were created to fellowship with Him! Mny blessings Larry

Amen

 

[PreciousMessage]

The Gift Given!

Isn't there a scripture that says God chose us first?
Also doesn't faith come before salvation?​

Hi Violet,

Experientially I believe you're onto something. Although, Christ Jesus has chosen all for salvation. If we look closely the scripture states, "For the grace of has appeared bringing salvation to ALL men" (Titus 2:11).

This is in the past tense. The cross of Jesus has given salvation to all men, yet many will not have it, they throw it away and despise it. I do not believe in universalism, many will be lost.

While walking the earth, Jesus said, "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved" John 3:17. God condemns no man, we condemn ourselves through unbelief. Vs. 18.

Jesus also stated in John 12:47, "And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I DO NOT JUDGE HIM; for I did not come to judge the world but to SAVE the world."

And at the cross, Christ said, "It is finished" (John 19:30). In other words, He accomplished what He came to do. That's the better good news. Sadly, many spurn the gift given and throw it away.

John

 

[PreciousMessage]

In Christ, God has Predestined ALL For Salvation

It is really quite simple-"those He foreknew predestined "- God knew all your choices before you were even born- He saw those who would be His and has planned, provided and directed your path so you would find Him- He still moves heaven and earth to bring a single soul into His kingdom- so we may choose but God ultimately knows what our choices are and in His faithfullness He won't miss a single person who would have Him- after all were created to fellowship with Him! Mny blessings Larry

Hi Larry,

Something to consider dear brother:

I understand you're meaning when you say He "directed your path so you would find Him." We can be thankful there is not a parable of the sheep trying to find the Shepherd. Sheep are dumb.

On the question of predestination, the better good news of the gospel!

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.” The word “predestinate” is the same as “foreordain,” which is found in the Revised Version.

It is plainly stated in the Scriptures that God knows all things. Not only does he know the things that are past, but he sees the future as well. “Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.” Acts 15:18. “O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising; thou understandest my thought afar off.” Ps. 139:1, 2. God can tell what people even yet unborn will do and say.


“God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.” 1 Thess. 5:9. That is God’s purpose and foreordination concerning man. Still further, “whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son.” Whom did he foreknow? There can be no limit; he must have foreknown all. If there were any exception, then God would not be infinite in knowledge. If he foreknows one person, then he foreknows every person. There has not been a person born into the world whose birth God did not foreknow.


“Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight; but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.” Therefore, since every person has been known to God even before the foundation of the world, and those whom he foreknew he predestinated to be conformed to the image of his Son, it follows that God has purposed salvation for every soul that has ever come into the world. His love embraces all, without respect of persons.


“Then everybody will be saved, no matter what He does,” some one will say. Not by any means. Remember that the purpose of God is in Christ. It is only in him that we are predestinated. And we are free to choose for ourselves whether we will accept him or not.

blessings in Christ,
John

 

[PreciousMessage]

God is Perfect and not the author of sin.

if they didnt havefree will then they couldnot have done it.

Amen.

The fact that God knew the evil that men would do, even before the foundation of the world, does not make Him responsible for it, He cannot interfere with man’s right and freedom of choice without depriving him of his manhood and making him the same as a stick.

Freedom to do right implies freedom to do wrong. If a man were made so that he could not do wrong, he would have no freedom at all, not even to do right.

“Choose ye,” is the language of the Lord to us. We may say that we will decide neither for him nor against him. We must decide; and taking so-called neutral ground is deciding against God. Said Jesus, “He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.” Matt. 12:30.

A preacher of righteousness once stated:

"God gives men freedom of choice as to whether or not they will serve Him, whoever seeks to deprive anyone of the exercise of that choice, is opposing God, and not man only. To seek to deprive men of freedom in matters of religion is to seek to overthrow the Government and plan of God." End Quote

Certainly God did not will Lucifer to sin against Him and bring sin into the universe. He is not the author of sin. "As for God, His way is perfect" Ps. 18:30.

blessings in Christ,

John

 

[PreciousMessage]

Does God choose some to be lost and others to be saved?

It is really quite simple-"those He foreknew predestined "- God knew all your choices before you were even born- He saw those who would be His and has planned, provided and directed your path so you would find Him- He still moves heaven and earth to bring a single soul into His kingdom- so we may choose but God ultimately knows what our choices are and in His faithfullness He won't miss a single person who would have Him- after all were created to fellowship with Him! Mny blessings Larry

Hi Larry,

That seems to be half good news, since I do not see the word "choice," involved in Romans 8:29. It does not say, "those that choose I desire to be conformed to the image of His Son." I like the whole good news of the pure gospel, that whom He foreknew, He has predestined "to be conformed to the image of His Son." Does God know all things and everyone? It takes away all mass traditional arguments of Armininianism and Calvinism. There is a better choice, not just the "offer" view, or the "special elect view," but the "free gift came to all men" (Rom. 5:18).

That's what the sin sick soul needs! Christ and Him Crucified for the sins of the whole world, not just for those certain elect. After all, He is indeed, the "Savior of All men."

John S.

 

[Boanerges(Inactive)]

He is indeed saviour of all but only those who accept that sacrifice will ever taste of His goodness- despite all the $50 words- it still amounts to what God Said- Those He foreknew- are you trying to tell me He picked those that wouldn't have Him to be conformed to the image of His Son- of course not beacause that would be ludicrous- As far as what arguements it takes away from I guess I am just a simple bible believer and that doesn't phase me in the least- LOL! Yep th free gidt is available to all but not all would even want it - don't worry though God is not surprised , He foreknew it!