Salvation

[GordonSlocum]

I will ask some tough questions, but do not take it personally. You are a child of God, and I am no better but from the dirt of the earth.

You stated, "I don't think there is a specific statement, in Scripture, that is worded in such a way that it comes out an specifically says "free will" with direct reference to salvation."

There is also not one statement in the Bible that says "free will" is in contradiction to salvation. But the Bible does talk of "free will" without any exemption noted. We all have been given the measure of faith "personally" according to scripture. It must be personally ours, otherwise Christ has not given it to us, but the Bible says all have been given the measure of faith. Although, I do not understand what you mean by that point when it comes to free will. God does not force anyone to accept his precious gift. They must come willingly and freely.

Are you saying that sinners accept Christ unwillingly and unfreely?

Sinners, as I see it, are free to willingly believe or not believe. Also, I do not see believing faith as a gift given specifically for the purpose to enable one to believe. I, instead, hold to the position that man is created in the image of God by which he inherently has the capability to trust and the trust, believing, faith is just there once an object is presented. Faith takes an object. Without the object even a special gift of faith is worthless. Now God gives a measure of faith to believers according to Romans 12. How should I understand that in terms of language? If faith takes an object to believe in - then the giving of faint is related to something else relevant to produce faith, and in this manner I would agree that what God said is meant accordingly. The question must be ask, "How does one give a measure of faith?" The only way I can reconcile it is if the expression, while not mentioned, includes some object to direct faith in. We know that Christ is our object of salvation. What then is the object of the measure of faith God gives to BELIEVERS, not un-believers. Romans 12:3 "as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." The context is speaking of gifts and believers are told it is their reasonable service.

Let me ask you, who has "free will?" You have stated no one has free will." But now you say no has has free will when it comes to salvation. You could not even acknowledge that people have "free will" of any kind. I hope it's not painful to do so. If you are so adamantly opposed to "free will" regarding salvation or in general, why does not Christ teach this?

I am a very solid dogmatic advocate that man has "FREE WILL" I am 1000 percent Plus anti TULIP

Christ never, never says we do not have free will. But Jesus does say we do have FREE WILL according to scripture. Let's not "assume" a teaching that is not taught in the Word of God. As you say, "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God," only. If Christ said, "We do not have free will when it comes to salvation," then so be it, but He never says that, but He does say we have "free will without any disclaimers.

The point that faith takes an object supports "FREE WILL", as I see it.

To posit that "faith" is a special gift given to a select few whereby they are enabled to, at that time, be saved by them taking the special gift of faith and placing their gifted faith in Christ for salvation is not my view or position. Jesus repeatedly spoke of "your, theirs, his, her faith".


I hope that is not as muddy as the last post.

Gordon

 

[PreciousMessage]

Sinners, as I see it, are free to willingly believe or not believe. Also, I do not see believing faith as a gift given specifically for the purpose to enable one to believe. I, instead, hold to the position that man is created in the image of God by which he inherently has the capability to trust and the trust, believing, faith is just there once an object is presented. Faith takes an object. Also, I do not see believing faith as a gift given specifically for the purpose to enable one to believe. Now God gives a measure of faith to believers according to Romans 12. How should I understand that in terms of language? If faith takes an object to believe in - then the giving of faint is related to something else relevant to produce faith, and in this manner I would agree that what God said is meant accordingly. The question must be ask, "How does one give a measure of faith?" The only way I can reconcile it is if the expression, while not mentioned, includes some object to direct faith in. We know that Christ is our object of salvation. What then is the object of the measure of faith God gives to BELIEVERS, not un-believers. Romans 12:3 "as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." The context is speaking of gifts and believers are told it is their reasonable service.



I am a very solid dogmatic advocate that man has "FREE WILL" I am 1000 percent Plus anti TULIP



The point that faith takes an object supports "FREE WILL", as I see it.

To posit that "faith" is a special gift given to a select few whereby they are enabled to, at that time, be saved by them taking the special gift of faith and placing their gifted faith in Christ for salvation is not my view or position. Jesus repeatedly spoke of "your, theirs, his, her faith".


I hope that is not as muddy as the last post.

Gordon

Dear Gordon,

You stated, Also, I do not see believing faith as a gift given specifically for the purpose to enable one to believe.

You are very prophetic and have muddied the waters. What again do you mean that faith was not given for the specific purpose to believe? What was it given for?

Faith and believe is the same word in the Greek, pisits. They are interchangeable. Your statement is opposed to each other.

 

[PreciousMessage]

Sinners are worthless without the object of faith?

Sinners, as I see it, are free to willingly believe or not believe. Also, I do not see believing faith as a gift given specifically for the purpose to enable one to believe. I, instead, hold to the position that man is created in the image of God by which he inherently has the capability to trust and the trust, believing, faith is just there once an object is presented. Faith takes an object. Without the object even a special gift of faith is worthless. Now God gives a measure of faith to believers according to Romans 12. How should I understand that in terms of language? If faith takes an object to believe in - then the giving of faint is related to something else relevant to produce faith, and in this manner I would agree that what God said is meant accordingly. The question must be ask, "How does one give a measure of faith?" The only way I can reconcile it is if the expression, while not mentioned, includes some object to direct faith in. We know that Christ is our object of salvation. What then is the object of the measure of faith God gives to BELIEVERS, not un-believers. Romans 12:3 "as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." The context is speaking of gifts and believers are told it is their reasonable service.



I am a very solid dogmatic advocate that man has "FREE WILL" I am 1000 percent Plus anti TULIP



The point that faith takes an object supports "FREE WILL", as I see it.

To posit that "faith" is a special gift given to a select few whereby they are enabled to, at that time, be saved by them taking the special gift of faith and placing their gifted faith in Christ for salvation is not my view or position. Jesus repeatedly spoke of "your, theirs, his, her faith".


I hope that is not as muddy as the last post.

Gordon

Hi Gordon,

You stated, Without the object even a special gift of faith is worthless.

A preacher of 60 books stated, "Selfishness would make a monopoly of eternal life. The Jewish nation thought to confine the benefits of salvation to their own nation; but the world's redeemer showed them that salvation is like the air we breathe, like the atmosphere that belongs to the whole world. Every soul is enriched by the love of God. The selfishness that would number Israel is an offense to God; for God's gift belongs not to a select few but to the whole world." End Quote.

Why do you regard yourself so highly? As if you are the "chosen one?" How do reach the down and out when you tell them that they are worthless without the object of faith? Where are you coming from dear brother?

A sinner saved by grace,

John

 

[PreciousMessage]

Sinners, as I see it, are free to willingly believe or not believe. Also, I do not see believing faith as a gift given specifically for the purpose to enable one to believe. I, instead, hold to the position that man is created in the image of God by which he inherently has the capability to trust and the trust, believing, faith is just there once an object is presented. Faith takes an object. Without the object even a special gift of faith is worthless. Now God gives a measure of faith to believers according to Romans 12. How should I understand that in terms of language? If faith takes an object to believe in - then the giving of faint is related to something else relevant to produce faith, and in this manner I would agree that what God said is meant accordingly. The question must be ask, "How does one give a measure of faith?" The only way I can reconcile it is if the expression, while not mentioned, includes some object to direct faith in. We know that Christ is our object of salvation. What then is the object of the measure of faith God gives to BELIEVERS, not un-believers. Romans 12:3 "as God has allotted to each a measure of faith." The context is speaking of gifts and believers are told it is their reasonable service.



I am a very solid dogmatic advocate that man has "FREE WILL" I am 1000 percent Plus anti TULIP



The point that faith takes an object supports "FREE WILL", as I see it.

To posit that "faith" is a special gift given to a select few whereby they are enabled to, at that time, be saved by them taking the special gift of faith and placing their gifted faith in Christ for salvation is not my view or position. Jesus repeatedly spoke of "your, theirs, his, her faith".


I hope that is not as muddy as the last post.

Gordon

Hi Gordon,

If everyone has not been given the measure of faith, how do we come to Christ? By osmosis? IN CHRIST, everyone has been given the "FAITH OF JESUS." Without such, no one could come to Him. We do not come of ourselves. You do know that there is not one single thing within yourself that draws you to our Savior? God forbid!

What drew you to Christ, something within yourself or the "faith of Jesus?"

John

 

[GordonSlocum]

Hi Gordon,

You stated, Without the object even a special gift of faith is worthless.

A preacher of 60 books stated, "Selfishness would make a monopoly of eternal life. The Jewish nation thought to confine the benefits of salvation to their own nation; but the world's redeemer showed them that salvation is like the air we breathe, like the atmosphere that belongs to the whole world. Every soul is enriched by the love of God. The selfishness that would number Israel is an offense to God; for God's gift belongs not to a select few but to the whole world." End Quote.

Why do you regard yourself so highly? As if you are the "chosen one?" How do reach the down and out when you tell them that they are worthless without the object of faith? Where are you coming from dear brother?

A sinner saved by grace,

John

I am sorry I think you misunderstand what I am saying.

I do not see believing faith as a special gift from God

I see believing faith as something all mankind has from the fact that they are created in the image of God

The capacity to believe, have faith, trust, etc is apart of the make up of mankind and it is "activated" so to speak when it is presented with an object to believe in.

Christ is the object of salvation to all who believe in Him the object.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Hi Gordon,

If everyone has not been given the measure of faith, how do we come to Christ? By osmosis? IN CHRIST, everyone has been given the "FAITH OF JESUS." Without such, no one could come to Him. We do not come of ourselves. You do know that there is not one single thing within yourself that draws you to our Savior? God forbid!

What drew you to Christ, something within yourself or the "faith of Jesus?"

John

I think we are trying to say the same thing. I did not draw myself to God, Christ, etc. The Faith of Christ did not draw me either. Drawing is through one being convicted of a need and that need is revealed in the explanation of Grace, which is Christ.

44. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

2. even {the} righteousness of God through faith in
the object of faith is >>> Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
17. So faith {comes} fromhearing, and (The Object of Faith is) hearing by the word of Christ.

faith
–noun 1.confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability. 2.belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims. 3.belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty. 8.Christian Theology. the trust in God and in His promises as made through Christ and the Scriptures by which humans are justified or saved.

30. and after he brought them out, he said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
31. They said, "Believe in (object of faith is >> the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household."

It does not say<> by the faith of Jesus <> believe in the Lord Jesus.

 

[PreciousMessage]

Salvation is IN HIM

I am sorry I think you misunderstand what I am saying.

I do not see believing faith as a special gift from God

I see believing faith as something all mankind has from the fact that they are created in the image of God

The capacity to believe, have faith, trust, etc is apart of the make up of mankind and it is "activated" so to speak when it is presented with an object to believe in.

Christ is the object of salvation to all who believe in Him the object.

Hi Gordon,

Everything we have is a gift from God, therefore it is special. We have nothing of our own, certainly you understand this concept from the Bible. He gave you life, the body you are in, the air you breathe, and food. It's all a gift dear brother.

Who keeps your heart beating dear brother? That's why the cross has been active since the world began. For "the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8).

Regarding salvation brother, let's get into that: "Of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace" (John 1:16, NKJV). I find it interesting that "believers" think the Bible is only talking about them. The Bible is an amazing thing, it's the Word of God, speaking to anyone who reads it, regarding their supposed conversion. God speaks to everyone! His word is not exclusive, like many "believe."

The gospel proclaims a complete, unreserved, unconditional giving of Christ, and alll that is in Him, to humanity as a whole.

The Bible teaches that Jesus is "the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4:10). In the person of Christ is accomplished fact of salvation for the whole world (1 John 2:2, RSV). Said in a different way, in Christ is accomplished the fact of salvation for the whole world. By believing that reality, the salvation that is accomplished in Him becomes experientially activated in us.

We believe the fact; we don't make it. We embrace a salvation that is; we do not cause it to be dear brother. We receive by faith an achieved salvation; we do not create salvation by right doing. For example:

"in Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation" (Eph. 1:13).

But how can we hear about our salvation before we have believed? There is only one way, there must be something to believe before we can believe it, right? Salvation must be a real and existing truth that can be told to us prior to our "exercise of faith, it's the telling of that very truth that enables faith to be exercised.

How many things consist "in Christ?" Col. 1:17. All things. "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7).

Anything short of an accomplished salvation IN CHRIST for all mankind makes God the responder and us the initiators of our own salvation, with Him saving us in exchange for our good works.

May we be giving the people "good news" not "bad news."

blessings in Christ,
John

 

[GordonSlocum]

Everything we have is a gift from God, therefore it is special. We have nothing of our own, certainly you understand this concept from the Bible. He gave you life, the body you are in, the air you breathe, and food. It's all a gift dear brother.

agree

Who keeps your heart beating dear brother? That's why the cross has been active since the world began. For "the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8).

agree

Regarding salvation brother, let's get into that: "Of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace" (John 1:16, NKJV). I find it interesting that "believers" think the Bible is only talking about them. The Bible is an amazing thing, it's the Word of God, speaking to anyone who reads it, regarding their supposed conversion. God speaks to everyone! His word is not exclusive, like many "believe."

agree

The gospel proclaims a complete, unreserved, unconditional giving of Christ, and alll that is in Him, to humanity as a whole.

agree

The Bible teaches that Jesus is "the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4:10). In the person of Christ is accomplished fact of salvation for the whole world (1 John 2:2, RSV). Said in a different way, in Christ is accomplished the fact of salvation for the whole world. By believing that reality, the salvation that is accomplished in Him becomes experientially activated in us.

agree

We believe the fact; we don't make it. We embrace a salvation that is; we do not cause it to be dear brother. We receive by faith an achieved salvation; we do not create salvation by right doing. For example:

"in Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation" (Eph. 1:13).

(emphaisis added)

agree

But how can we hear about our salvation before we have believed? There is only one way, there must be something to believe before we can believe it, right? (that is exactly what I have been saying, the something to believe is the object of faith) Salvation must be a real and existing truth that can be told to us prior to our "exercise of faith, it's the telling of that very truth that enables faith to be exercised.

agree

How many things consist "in Christ?" Col. 1:17. All things. "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7).

:amen:

Anything short of an accomplished salvation IN CHRIST for all mankind makes God the responder and us the initiators of our own salvation, with Him saving us in exchange for our good works.

agree

May we be giving the people "good news" not "bad news."

blessings in Christ,

Bless you too.

Gordon

 

[PreciousMessage]

agree



agree



agree



agree



agree

(emphaisis added)

agree



agree



:amen:



agree



Bless you too.

Gordon

Hi Gordon,

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith OF Jesus, [not faith IN Jesus]. Paul makes that distinction for a reason.
The faith OF Jesus is Him living in the "likeness of sinful flesh" to condemn sin in the flesh. Romans 8:1-4.

In Christ, He is our justification, sanctification, and glorification. Christ lived by faith in His Father so that we could live by faith in Him. No one can come to Christ unless faith has been imparted. Going on, "for ALL have sinned ... being justified freely."

bless you,
John

 

[GordonSlocum]

Hi Gordon,

"Even the righteousness of God which is by faith OF Jesus, [not faith IN Jesus]. Paul makes that distinction for a reason.
The faith OF Jesus is Him living in the "likeness of sinful flesh" to condemn sin in the flesh. Romans 8:1-4.

In Christ, He is our justification, sanctification, and glorification. Christ lived by faith in His Father so that we could live by faith in Him. No one can come to Christ unless faith has been imparted. Going on, "for ALL have sinned ... being justified freely."

bless you,
John

I will have to respectfully disagree that faith is imparted for the purpose of believing.

 

[Dusty]

Matthew 6:30
If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?


Matthew 8:5
[ The Faith of the Centurion ] When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.


Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.


Matthew 8:26
He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.


Matthew 9:2
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."

 

[PreciousMessage]

Matthew 6:30
If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?


Matthew 8:5
[ The Faith of the Centurion ] When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help.


Matthew 8:10
When Jesus heard this, he was astonished and said to those following him, "I tell you the truth, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith.


Matthew 8:26
He replied, "You of little faith, why are you so afraid?" Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.


Matthew 9:2
Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, "Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven."

Good texts,

John

 

[PreciousMessage]

I will have to respectfully disagree that faith is imparted for the purpose of believing.

Thanks for your determination and sharing, till next time.

John

 

[Nathi]

May I ask? Did we found Christ? or He found us?

Is this saying appropiate? " I have found Jesus"?

 

[PreciousMessage]

The Shepherd &quot;seeks&quot; the sheep, we are dumb

May I ask? Did we found Christ? or He found us?

Is this saying appropiate? " I have found Jesus"?

Hi Nathi,

There is no parable of the "sheep" "seeking" the Shepherd. He seeks us.

blessings in Christ,
John

Romans 3 explains this.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Everything we have is a gift from God,

agree

We have nothing of our own, certainly you understand this concept from the Bible.

Disagree with your comment "certainly you understand this concept from the Bible" This type comment places you as the sole person of which your view is the only view. By the way I do agree, but you should tray to address a subject and not state it in a personal "I know better than you tone".

He gave you life, the body you are in, the air you breathe, and food. It's all a gift dear brother.

Try expressing it this way, "I understand the Scripture to teach that God gives life, He gave me my body, He gives me the air I breath, and I see all of this as a gift." See the difference.

Regarding salvation brother, let's get into that: "Of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace" (John 1:16, NKJV). I find it interesting that "believers" think the Bible is only talking about them. The Bible is an amazing thing, it's the Word of God, speaking to anyone who reads it, regarding their supposed conversion. God speaks to everyone! His word is not exclusive, like many "believe."

If you had read my comments carefully you would either ask, "Dear Brother, do you mean this or are you saying this, instead you assume and then proceede to instruct.

The gospel proclaims a complete, unreserved, unconditional giving of Christ, and alll that is in Him, to humanity as a whole.

agree

The Bible teaches that Jesus is "the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe" (1 Tim. 4:10).

agree

In the person of Christ is accomplished fact of salvation for the whole world (1 John 2:2, RSV). Said in a different way, in Christ is accomplished the fact of salvation for the whole world. By believing that reality, the salvation that is accomplished in Him becomes experientially activated in us.

I know you understand what you are saying in these words but they are not clear enough for me to know weather I agree or see things differently. What I think you may be saying is that salvation is not just for a special pre-picked few but for all mankind. Do I have it correct or are you saying something else?

We believe the fact; we don't make it. We embrace a salvation that is; we do not cause it to be dear brother. We receive by faith an achieved salvation; we do not create salvation by right doing. For example:

"in Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation" (Eph. 1:13).

I understand your words here to be saying the same thing I am saying. "Facts", God's Grace, the Gospel, Christ death, burial and resurrection, the facts, equals the object of faith. I have stated that faith takes an object (Faith In - In What - Something - The something is the object).

But how can we hear about our salvation before we have believed? There is only one way, there must be something to believe before we can believe it, right?

Agree, the something you speak of is what I call the object of faith, John Doe Believes in or has faith in "something". Faith takes an object, in him, in this, in that etc. So I understand what you are saying as the same thing I am saying with respect to the statement I have underlined in your comment. Are my comment meaningful and do you find them to be compatible to yours?

Salvation must be a real and existing truth that can be told to us prior to our "exercise of faith, it's the telling of that very truth that enables faith to be exercised.

Precisely my position. However, as stated here and there, what I see as enabling faith is the truth which I call the object. I have faith in a truth and that truth in my case is the truth of the Gospel, being the object of my faith.

So, would you agree that the Grace of God, the Gospel of salvation is the object of faith? Do you understand this statement as meaning Faith Takes an Object = Faint In Jesus?

How many things consist "in Christ?" Col. 1:17. All things. "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" (Eph. 1:7).

agree

Anything short of an accomplished salvation IN CHRIST for all mankind makes God the responder and us the initiators of our own salvation, with Him saving us in exchange for our good works.

I am assuming that what you are saying is that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. Is that correct. The wording is award sounding to me.

Gordon

 

[PreciousMessage]

Faith comes by hearing

agree



Disagree with your comment "certainly you understand this concept from the Bible" This type comment places you as the sole person of which your view is the only view. By the way I do agree, but you should tray to address a subject and not state it in a personal "I know better than you tone".



Try expressing it this way, "I understand the Scripture to teach that God gives life, He gave me my body, He gives me the air I breath, and I see all of this as a gift." See the difference.




If you had read my comments carefully you would either ask, "Dear Brother, do you mean this or are you saying this, instead you assume and then proceede to instruct.




agree




agree



I know you understand what you are saying in these words but they are not clear enough for me to know weather I agree or see things differently. What I think you may be saying is that salvation is not just for a special pre-picked few but for all mankind. Do I have it correct or are you saying something else?





I understand your words here to be saying the same thing I am saying. "Facts", God's Grace, the Gospel, Christ death, burial and resurrection, the facts, equals the object of faith. I have stated that faith takes an object (Faith In - In What - Something - The something is the object).




Agree, the something you speak of is what I call the object of faith, John Doe Believes in or has faith in "something". Faith takes an object, in him, in this, in that etc. So I understand what you are saying as the same thing I am saying with respect to the statement I have underlined in your comment. Are my comment meaningful and do you find them to be compatible to yours?



Precisely my position. However, as stated here and there, what I see as enabling faith is the truth which I call the object. I have faith in a truth and that truth in my case is the truth of the Gospel, being the object of my faith.

So, would you agree that the Grace of God, the Gospel of salvation is the object of faith? Do you understand this statement as meaning Faith Takes an Object = Faint In Jesus?




agree



I am assuming that what you are saying is that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. Is that correct. The wording is award sounding to me.

Gordon

Hi Gordon,

"For if any think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself" (Gal. 6:3). My deepest thoughts and motives, only the Lord knows.

Let me give you the words of one preacher, which, to my knowledge and feeble finite mind, I had never seen until this morning (Sunday):

“Think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.” Chapter 12:3. Thus God has put faith into the mouth and into the heart of every man.

Again: the word of God is the means, the channel, of faith; for “faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” And the word of God has been heard by all, in at least two ways: for “that which may be known of God is manifest in [margin, “to”] them; for God hath showed it unto them.” Rom. 1:19. Both text and margin are true; for that which may be known of God is manifest both to men and in men.

It is manifest to men in the things that are made, in the visible creation. “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse.” Verse 20. And through these things that are made, men hear the word of God, through the hearing of which comes faith. That this may clearly be seen, turn to the tenth chapter of Romans and study carefully verses 12-18. There it is said: “There is no difference between the Jew and the Greek; for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.” Then come the questions: “How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach, except they be sent?” Then comes the statement: “But they have not all obeyed the gospel.” But did they not all hear the gospel?—Assuredly they did, for no one is held responsible for not obeying the gospel who has not heard the gospel. The above questions show that. So, then, they have all heard the gospel, though all have not obeyed it. and so this, too, is written: “But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.”

Now these last words are quoted from the nineteenth psalm, where it is telling that the heavens declare the glory of God. see: “The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard. their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world.” These last words are the very ones that are quoted in Rom. 10:18, and notice that they are quoted there, not only to show that all men have heard the word of God, but to show that they have heard the very gospel itself. Therefore it is plain by the word of God that the speech that the heavens utter day by day is the word of God, and the knowledge which night unto night they show is the knowledge of God. and this is how that which may be known of God is manifest to all men, for God has thus showed it to them. And as it was by the word of the Lord that the heavens were made (Ps. 33:6), so through the heavens and all things that are made, this word of God is speaking to men, declaring the creative power and glory of God. Thus all men hear the word of God, and by the hearing of the word comes faith, so that by this means God has given faith to all." "And in order that all men may see “the invis*ible things of him,” and “him who is invisible,” “God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.” Rom. 12: 3. Faith is ‘the gift of God.” Eph. 2:8. It is not the gift of God in the sense that the natural faculties, as reason, night, hear*ing, etc., are the gifts of God, so that it should be of ourselves. It is the gift of God in the sense that it is from above and beyond ourselves, a supernatural faculty bestowed since sin entered, and acting only at the free choice of the individual himself."

Thus in creating enmity between man and Satan, God opens to man the door of faith, that he may find Jesus Christ and in him the fulness of the salvation of the eternal God. and so it is written: John “came for a witness, to bear witness of the light, that all men through him might believe. . . . That was the true light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.” John 1:7, 9. Thus God has dealt to every man the measure of faith. Thus God has put faith into the mouth and into the heart of every man. And every man who will exercise the measure of faith which he has, that faith will “grow exceedingly” (2 Thess. 1:3), and will work in him the fulness of the salvation of God.
End Quote

blessings,
John

 

[PreciousMessage]

He &quot;has reconciled the world to Himself&quot;

I am assuming that what you are saying is that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. Is that correct. The wording is award sounding to me.

Gordon

Hi Gordon,

Now I'm assuming when you're doing all of the assuming, it is what you believe, not necessarily what I believe the scripture is saying to me. Is that your own viewpoint?

I stated: "Anything short of an accomplished salvation IN CHRIST (for all mankind) makes God the responder and us the initiators of our own salvation, with Him saving us in exchange for our good works."

You stated: "I am assuming that what you are saying is that salvation is by grace through faith and not of works. Is that correct. The wording is award sounding to me.

The context of the statement is that anything short of an accomplished salvation in Christ, the whole human race, means He is always the initiator, anything else would be trying to earn salvation. The fear of hell or the reward of heaven is always the wrong motive. We love Him, because He first loved us. Christ's cross being the ultimate of His love.

I "believe" the confusion between us is the "in Christ" phrase. I believe that phrase is not only experiential for the believer, but also objectively for ALL mankind. Again, ALL things consist IN Christ, all have been saved, the whole human race.

"Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together in the heavenly places IN Christ Jesus" Eph. 2:5,6.

Now are these verses talking of ones acceptance of Christ or an objective fact at the cross for the whole human race.

Whom were dead in trespasses? Mankind of course.

I believe Paul pulled Eph. 2:5,6 right out of the book of Hosea 6:1,2. If you notice, it is "cross language."

"Come, and let us return unto the LORD, for He hath torn, and He will heal us; He hath smitten, and He will bind us up. AFTER TWO DAYS will He revive [quicken] us: in the third day He will raise us up, and we shall live in His sight" Hosea 6:1,2. Prophetic indeed.

We need understand, there is a difference between "you In Christ" and "Christ in you." One is objective and the other is subjective.

"IN Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of His grace" Eph. 1:7.

Before we do anything at all--repent, confess, or even believe, God has already done something extremely significant for mankind. He "has reconciled the world to Himself" by "not counting men's sins against them." It can be said that "ALL things are of God." Every possibility of human boasting and merit is completely blotted out of the picture.

Therefore, mankind's salvation has already been accomplished in the person of Christ Jesus."For the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all men." Titus 2:11. It is true that many will throw away their birth right possession, just as Essau threw away his for a bowl of food.

This is the better good news of the gospel, it is not limited to only a select few. It is Christ dying for the sins of the world that melts the heart.

John

 

[GordonSlocum]

Therefore, mankind's salvation has already been accomplished in the person of Christ Jesus."For the grace of God has appeared bringing salvation to all men." Titus 2:11. It is true that many will throw away their birth right possession, just as Essau threw away his for a bowl of food.

agree



The testimony of Scripture is overwhelming that the source of faith is resident within all persons. Are you a Calvinist, RT, or Tulip believer? To state that Faith was a special gift to in able the saved to believe is a Calvinist, RT, or TULIP position?

Romans 12 talks about God giving believers a measure of faith. If one takes this to mean all of mankind have been given a measure of faith it could only be understood as a result of mankind being created in the image of God.



Matthew 6:30 “You of little faith!â€
Matthew 8:10 “such great faithâ€
Matthew 8:26. He *said to them, "Why are you afraid, you men of little faith?"
Matthew 9: 2. And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."
Matthew 9:22. “But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.
Matthew 9:29. “Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."
Matthew 14:21 "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"
Matthew 15: 28. “Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.â€
Matthew 16:"You men of little faith,â€
Matthew 17:20. “And He *said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith;â€
Matthew 21:“if you have faith and do not doubtâ€
Mark 4:40 “ And He said to them, "Why are you afraid? Do you still have no faith?"‘ (interesting comment)
Mark 11: 22. “And Jesus *answered saying to them, "Have faith in God.â€
Luke 8:"Where is your faith?" (interesting comment)
Luke 17:"Increase our faith!"
Luke 22: “that your faith may not failâ€
Acts 14: “he had faith to be made well,
Acts 16:9 “cleansing their hearts by faith.â€
Acts 20: 21. “solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.â€
Acts 24:24 “about faith in Christ Jesusâ€
Acts 26:18 “those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
Romans 3:22 righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Romans 3: 26 the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 4: 5. “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,â€
Romans 4:20 he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith

 

[PreciousMessage]

A gift given, not offered, or for a select few

agree



The testimony of Scripture is overwhelming that the source of faith is resident within all persons. Are you a Calvinist, RT, or Tulip believer? To state that Faith was a special gift to in able the saved to believe is a Calvinist, RT, or TULIP position?

Romans 12 talks about God giving believers a measure of faith. If one takes this to mean all of mankind have been given a measure of faith it could only be understood as a result of mankind being created in the image of God.



Matthew 6:30 “You of little faith!â€
Matthew 8:10 “such great faithâ€
Matthew 8:26. He *said to them, "Why are you afraid, you men of little faith?"
Matthew 9: 2. And they brought to Him a paralytic lying on a bed. Seeing their faith, Jesus said to the paralytic, "Take courage, son; your sins are forgiven."
Matthew 9:22. “But Jesus turning and seeing her said, "Daughter, take courage; your faith has made you well." At once the woman was made well.
Matthew 9:29. “Then He touched their eyes, saying, "It shall be done to you according to your faith."
Matthew 14:21 "You of little faith, why did you doubt?"
Matthew 15: 28. “Then Jesus said to her, "O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish." And her daughter was healed at once.â€
Matthew 16:"You men of little faith,â€
Matthew 17:20. “And He *said to them, "Because of the littleness of your faith;â€
Matthew 21:“if you have faith and do not doubtâ€
Mark 4:40 “ And He said to them, "Why are you afraid? Do you still have no faith?"‘ (interesting comment)
Mark 11: 22. “And Jesus *answered saying to them, "Have faith in God.â€
Luke 8:"Where is your faith?" (interesting comment)
Luke 17:"Increase our faith!"
Luke 22: “that your faith may not failâ€
Acts 14: “he had faith to be made well,
Acts 16:9 “cleansing their hearts by faith.â€
Acts 20: 21. “solemnly testifying to both Jews and Greeks of repentance toward God and faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.â€
Acts 24:24 “about faith in Christ Jesusâ€
Acts 26:18 “those who have been sanctified by faith in Me.'
Romans 3:22 righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction;
Romans 3: 26 the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Romans 4: 5. “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,â€
Romans 4:20 he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith

Wonderful texts: There is a great difference between the "exercising" of faith and the faith that has been given to every man laid out in scripture. One scripture does not negate another scripture. They are in in perfect harmony.

To my limited knowledge, Calvinism, no matter how it is stated, is that Christ did not intend to die for "all people. In fact, some of its prominent spokesman have said Jesus didn't even love "all people." He loved and died for only a special group known as "the elect."

The idea is that God has predestined some people to be saved; and because that His "soverign will," not even they can thwart what He has purposed to do. The predestined ones go to heaven whether they want to or not, why, because, after all, they have no "free will."

They understand the Lord's Prayer to say, "Thy will must and will be done in earth as it is in heaven." If you are one of the lucky ones, you'll be saved. Too bad for the others. ... I reject "once saved always saved."

I reject Calvinism. .... also Universalism.

Arminianism, a highly respected Protestant doctrine.

This belief says that the "all men" Paul speaks of in Romans 5 are only those who believe and obey. John Wesley tells of people who were so discouraged thinking they were prestined to be lost that they gave up hope, and others, thinking they were "the elect," wanted to sin ad infinitum and still be saved.

Arminianism also believes that everybody can be saved. And Christ died in order to make a provision so that everyone could be saved, but what He accomplished was only provisional. A big "if."

Arminianim says that our receiving what Christ offers us is what makes it become a "gift." Can this be true? He has done nothing more than make us an offer, a kind intention, and we then go away with no sense of real gratitude for a gift given. This may have something to do of the lukewarmness of the church in general, no sense of real gratitude.

Arminianism may have been a brave reponse To Calvinism, but comes short of the full sunlit truth that the apostles preached. God GAVE His Son, not merely offered to do so; Christ died for us, not just offered to. He actually shed His blood "once for all" to redeem us, not merely offered to; He doesn't have to shed it again constantly in the Roman Catholic mass.

If we accept this Arminian position then we can enter heaven and say, "Thanks Jesus for Your good offer; but You didn't accomplish anything for us until we did the right thing first to make it effective. We did our part, that's why we're here." This would turn out to be salvation by faith plus by works trip.

I reject Arminianism.

The Bible does make it clear that the lost will at last fully realize that Christ gave them the gift of justification and salvation "in Him," but they threw it away.

The problem boils down to one simple question: did Christ actually pay the debt for every human sin? YES! This is not a much to do about nothing issue.

The answer gives the key to reaching the Muslim Hindu, Buddhist, Jewish mind. Ye, all those people in "Babylon" whom the Lord calls, "My People." (Rev. 18:4).

It is the love (agape) of Christ constraineth us. When He said that "One died for all," he simply reasoned that it had to mean that "all died," so that "those who live" cannot in peace of conscience go on living for themselves. 2 Cor. 5:14, 15.

John