HisManySongs
Passed on, February 28, 2022
I believe everyone means what it says.
And it is verse 4 that gives government the authority to punish.
Should Christians Support The Death Penalty?
- Thread starter MMurphy
- Start date
And it is verse 4 that gives government the authority to punish.
And if you leave off 13:8 you allow totalitarian regimes to run roughshod over people.
Is that what The King wants?
No.
That is why 13:8 is there.
The whole passage, within the context of the whole of Scripture.
God does not want us to break the Two Great Commands and follow the wicked world.
If what you say is true then you need to never say anything about Abortion ever again. That is the government's
authority. Honour it!
MMurphy
Inactive
Opposing the death penalty is certainly not indicative of being devoid of compassion.
As for the worst criminals, I have a tendency to also agree that their crimes can certainly warrant death, but on the other hand, shouldn't we afford them as much time as possible to repent?
Lastly, the NT is virtually silent on proper governance, and is in fact far more appropriated towards obedience. I think it is very arrogant for you to say that those who object to the death penalty ignore the Bible or are not following Christ. And don't forget Christ himself halted the stoning of the woman caught in adultery despite the fact that she was properly accused.
I think the death penalty is letting the criminal take away what makes us human, I refuse to let that happen.
We are to respect and obey those governments that are placed in charge over us because God set them there.
Until they act contrary to God's will and word.
When the criminal justice system, in my opinion, acts as a criminal system of injustice, they do not have the authority to kill people. Not when there is a history in all states where the death penalty is currently practiced of innocent people being incarcerated under regular sentencing guidelines, non-lethal sentencing. Much less those who have been released from death row after being found innocent due to The Innocence Project and DNA testing on their case. Long years, too long, one day is too long for the innocent to sit in a cell, much less on Death Row, after they were sentenced to die. And were making appeals while the clock ticked down.
Okay, now I understand from your words highlighted above, you have reached the state of sinless perfection........,
You still haven't answered my question.
And I reiterate, YOU are not qualified to judge the Word of God because in so doing you make yourself higher than God.
For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. Act 20:29, 30
As also in all his (Paul) epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. 2 Pe 3:16
No she wasn't, the Law said both were to be stoned, where was the man?
You argue with God about his plan of salvation. Ask God why he decided criminals should be executed, rather than given "life" to repent. If you believe in Free Will, then these monsters will drag others down with them, with the chance you give them. If you believe in Predestination, it makes no difference to their eternal fate.
The OT is not at all silent on proper governance. And, that silence you speak of in the NT is in the face of the teachings of the OT and in the face the very common practice, even used unjustly against Christians, in the days the NT was written. So, it's a silence that screams loudly. But, the NT is not comply silent, such as Paul's reminder that certain criminals deserve to be executed.
Christian opposition to the death penalty doesn't come from scripture or righteousness, but comes from the corrupt world view of the wicked. They oppose the death penalty and so they offer poor arguments against it, and undiscerning Christians think those arguments have weight.
BTW, do all you anti-death penalty people oppose war? Or, is your hypocrisy absolute?
If you are truly interested in them repenting, then execute them within 24 hours, it will cause them to repent and go be with the Lord that much quicker, prolonging it for years and decades is cruel, ...how long do you want to stick around here before you go home to be with Him?
MMurphy
Inactive
And what of Christ's opposition to the stoning of the woman caught in adultery?
I don't know of any scriptures by Paul assenting to the death penalty. As a Christian I believe it is not that those who commit certain crimes don't deserve the death penalty but rather there is no one among us qualified to administer it, because we've all fallen short of the law.
As to war, I believe in the just war doctrine. Its design is more akin to killing someone in self defense rather than in cold blood executions, whether or not it is justified.
Actually, it would be the state that is doing that. A criminal worthy of one state's death penalty is someone who would likely get life without parole in another state.
That the system is imperfect means the DP can make murderers of every capital punishment qualified jury.
MMurphy
Inactive
Jurisprudence prevents speedy executions in most civilized nations, as it would be a horrific error for the state to falsely execute someone.
In addition your proposal that it is somehow less cruel to execute someone in order to quicken their return to the Father is wholly barbaric and could easily be used to justify mother smothering their children to circumvent their struggles of life.
Only God has the right to claim human life.
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Sorry man, but that is an oxymoron, only the stupid US politicians believe in rules of war, you need to save up your pennies and go visit The Wall in D.C. spend some time there and watch the widow and children search for the name, observe the shudder in their body, listen to the sob in their throats, ...35 years later, sorry man, but you are clueless, ...friend you need to stick to talking about gun control.
You are talking about repentance, salvation, guilty or innocent, it just speeds up the decision.
How can you possibly equate murder with capital punishment, if the mother kills her children then execute her, ...same principle applies as stated above.
MMurphy
Inactive
I suspect you have experience in that regard and if so you have my condolences.
Just war doctrine, however, is not a general political doctrine but a rather specific set of conditions for when war is morally justified. The conditions are as such:
1) Imminent threat
2) Exhaust of alternatives
3)Reasonable chance of success
4) Must not create a greater evil
As you can probably tell, most wars do not meet these conditions.
MMurphy
Inactive
I meant that your statement about quickening a return to God is completely invalid logic. You cannot play God when it comes to human life.
The trouble with many Christians is that they pull things out of context and don't really care about what the Bible is really saying.
Jesus clearly did not object to the death penalty. So, why did Jesus not support the stoning? Because it was against Roman law for the Jews to execute people themselves. It was a trap. Do you know what trap is? If Jesus opposed executions, he could have objected to the death penalty, but he didn't.
Just war? It's amazing how easy it is to get supposed Christians to believe a war is just. But, take a just war, thousands of innocent people get killed. You oppose capital justice out of fear of an innocent person being killed in spite of the benefit of a trial, but you support war where thousands of innocent people will certainly be killed. In one case, you think any risk of an innocent being killed is too much. In the other case, you just blow off the deaths of may innocent people as the cost of war. Who was it that said something like the death of one person is a tragedy, but the death of thousands is a statistic.
I'm not playing God, God made the rules and God said to execute them!
All right, let's look at what God said, in every instance He said when it is revealed, or when you find out, or when you see it, whether it be homosexual behavior, bestiality, witchcraft, drugs or adultery, then His judgement is to be executed immediately, not next week or next month, or next year or in 25 years, immediately, now, let's take it a step further, the God of the OT is the Jesus of the NT, so we read, Jesus is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, that means He doesn't change His mind, ...if He said in the OT to execute immediately then when someone breaks God's law, that requires capital punishment, in the NT it's still the same punishment, ...immediately.
However I will add, we live in a time when man has usurped God's authority and God has/is allowing it because it's all part of His plan for the coming lawless one whom the whole world is going to follow, on top of that the OT is the dispensation of the Law, we are living in the dispensation of Grace, Jesus came full of Grace and Truth, which is God's way of showing mercy and grace to sinners in this dispensation, that is the Love part of God, ...but that doesn't change or negate the Holiness part of God and God's law of capital punishment given to Noah in the dispensation of government is still valid because we still have the sign of the rainbow with us, capital punishment is the corner stone of the government of God in His Kingdom and He gave it as the corner stone for human government, abolish it and see what happens to that nation, just look around you for a graphic object lesson, ...sad but true, we are watching the demise of America for this very reason.
MMurphy
Inactive
On the matter of the woman caught in adultery, if it is true as you say, why did Jesus not take her to the Roman authorities after the Jews had left?
Also, there are many instances where Christ opposes the judgment of others and in the case of the adulteress also the execution of others. I know not of a scripture where He declares it particularly justified to have someone executed.
Finally, your attack on the Just War Doctrine is completely tangent. JWD could be applied to justify an execution of someone IF that person was a threat to the lives of others. Not, however, as a punitive measure.
This is the better example. Let's say a military aggressor was going to invade a country and the invasion would cause the deaths of 10,000 civilians. Now, let's say to stop the invasion would cause the deaths of 5,000. This meets the criteria of just war if, and only if, there is a good chance the invasion will actually occur, if it is reasonably likely the counterinvasion will succeed, and if all diplomatic solutions have been exhausted.
MMurphy
Inactive
This is highly contentious.
For one, I can almost guarantee you that if you want to pursue this implementation of strict adherence to Leviticus and the Torah, which even the most orthodox Jews do not believe in, you will end up convicting yourself in it, just as the Pharisees did.
Second, I don't know what you are getting at by the execution of judgment immediately, but I presume it is a response to my comments about jurisprudence, so let me advise you that we do not have prophets living in the USA to ascertain the knowledge of God as to a person's guilt. So, we are left with a Court system that obtains facts based on evidence and convicts when the evidence suggests beyond a reasonable doubt that the person is guilty. For capital punishment it has been determined by most jurisdictions that an extensive appellate process also be applied to ensure the law was properly adjudicated. So, yes, if we knew for sure that person was guilty we would summarily execute, but we don't have that certainty.
Finally, in every scientific survey done about jurisdictions with the death penalty they have found it does not deter violent crime and in fact has convincing evidence that it does the opposite.