(Looking down at my feet and sheepishly shuffling them about in the dirt) I might have. Why?
MM
Speak Your Mind 2
- Thread starter Musicmaster
- Start date
(Looking down at my feet and sheepishly shuffling them about in the dirt) I might have. Why?
MM
Because I thought I saw someone looking through our window.
I know what ad hominem is.........it is when grits go on sale.........hominey Grits, 1 # for .69!
Well, my atheist acquaintances are ramping up again. They've begun attacking Pascals' Wager, claiming it's a flimsy defense, which I agree. I told them it's not meant to be a defense of anything in particular except what it claims.
I also told them that the wager itself is more of a fatalistic observation of the inescapable fact it addresses, predicated upon the fact that Theism and non-theism cannot possibly both be true at the same time because that would violate the law of non-contradiction. Pure and simple, huh?
MM
I also told them that the wager itself is more of a fatalistic observation of the inescapable fact it addresses, predicated upon the fact that Theism and non-theism cannot possibly both be true at the same time because that would violate the law of non-contradiction. Pure and simple, huh?
MM
Neither can propositions built on denials have any inherent substance to live off of.
They prefer to label their denials of the obvious as "skepticism" to try and make their denials sound more noble and scientific. They even quoted an article on their site warning them to stay away from discussions and debates about origins...that such discussions don't prove anything since none of it can be verified, although the assumption of naturalism is the most likely...given the lack of proof for God. (???)
They cast their circular reasonings out there as logical, and therefore allegedly lacking in no measure in "consensus." (???)
Well, I made it clear to them that ignoring origins in the exploration to discover God, that is philosophical suicide. Ignoring the most important elements in a journey of discovery is nothing more than a red herring tact. Instead, they asked me yesterday how I know I have a real relationship with Jesus. Rather than to deny their diversionary tactic, I addressed it with what I knew would satisfy their desire to retain their denials. I said that trying to describe the reality of the relationship with Christ Jesus would be like me asking them to type out the entire dictionary of the English language using only a digital resolution system of two bits.
For those who are digitally challenged, a two bit system (which described evolutionary theory) has only four possible combinations, meaning that they would be limited to four letters from our entire alphabet to try and reproduce the entire dictionary, which can't be done. Language fails to effectively capture that deep "knowing" within us when He sits upon the throne of our lives. Even Holy Spirit uses groanings in prayer with us for things that words simply don't exist.
So, I'm holding their feet to the fires of origins, and denying their straw man, diversionary tactics to avoid what they know will paint then into the corners of their own irrationalities.
MM
For those who are still wondering what a two bit system would look like for combinations, it is this:
00, 01, 10, and 11.
In a system that has only zeros and ones for representations of each binary digit, that's all there is. In other words, BInary means two, either a zero or a one. Given the limited number of possible combinations of just those two digits, there are only four possibilities in a two bit resolution system. This is how computers think, although modern computers, the new ones, operate in a 64 bit environment, which has about 18.447 X 10^18 possible combinations. This is what is meant by "exponential growth" by adding bits of resolution.
I hope that's more clear than mud. In other words, it would take a five bit system to capture all the letters in our alphabet given that with five bits, there are 32 possible combinations of zeros and ones in a 26 letter alphabet.
00000, 00001, 00010, 00011, 00100,...
00, 01, 10, and 11.
In a system that has only zeros and ones for representations of each binary digit, that's all there is. In other words, BInary means two, either a zero or a one. Given the limited number of possible combinations of just those two digits, there are only four possibilities in a two bit resolution system. This is how computers think, although modern computers, the new ones, operate in a 64 bit environment, which has about 18.447 X 10^18 possible combinations. This is what is meant by "exponential growth" by adding bits of resolution.
I hope that's more clear than mud. In other words, it would take a five bit system to capture all the letters in our alphabet given that with five bits, there are 32 possible combinations of zeros and ones in a 26 letter alphabet.
00000, 00001, 00010, 00011, 00100,...
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Hello MM;
I'm going to dig deep with your post only because I don't understand binary, and I'm trying to see how this relates to your opening post in
Speak Your Mind 2.
Back in the late 80's I took a class and we touched on binary. I don't know if it was related to accounting and wasn't really interested, to me.
I was more focused on the problem of grasping debits and credits.
Are you saying binary leads to this exponential growth which increases over time, thus binary? What part does this play in our Christian walk?
I'm still trying to grasp how one has to do with the other.
God bless you and thank you, brother.
Hi, Bob
My apologies. I didn't mean to throw anyone with my comparison that I leveled out as a response to the atheists. I just wanted to explain in a little more detail to those who don't understand how computers think internally. Everything is zeros and ones. Each bit, as you may recall, is either a one or a zero. Two of them used in tandem can provide for four possible combinations of zeros and ones.
The way you calculate how many possibilities there are to the number of bits observed, such as 00000 (five bits), you can calculate how many possible combinations of zeros and ones there are in five bits by working out the formula 2^n (two to the power of however many bits there are)...so to find how many combinations of zeros and ones five bits will give you, between 00000 and 11111, you find that number by calculating 2^5 (2 to the fifth power). The two always remains in the equation because this is a binary system. So, 2^5=32 (two to the fifth power = 32 = 2x2x2x2x2=32). Each combination of bits can be assigned to one of the 26 letters in our alphabet, with six left over.
So, my message to the atheists was that explaining to them in mere language how one knows he has a real relationship with a real Creator is like them trying to retype the English dictionary with only four letters (defined by only two bit resolution) from our alphabet, when they actually need all 26 (five bits at bare minimum). I'm too much a nerd when it comes to electronics. I used to alter (hack) programs at the machine code level of programming.
Now as to the OP, the title is the key...speak your mind. This thread was created to allow people to talk about whatever was on their minds (Speak Your Mind) about doctrinal issues. That dentist was decidedly an atheist, and Tony drove home how irrational he was.
Atheism hits dead center on doctrine as the Bible addresses it head-on:
Psalm 14:1 [[To the chief Musician, [A Psalm] of David.]] The fool hath said in his heart, [There is] no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, [there is] none that doeth good.
Every soul is a precious one as a creation of God, for it is also written:
Ezekiel 33:11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?
What those atheists don't understand is that the relationship that verifies to the believer the reality of the living and glorious Creator can only be experiential. I told them that a number of times, and they continue to hammer at it since they have no other weaponry in their arsenal. They claim to have been Christians at one time long ago, and have since walked away. I explained that they were never true followers of Christ, for it would make no sense to have ever walked away from a God whom they truly experienced, and then claim He doesn't exist. That didn't settle well with them, and they continue to claim they were Christians, to which I pointed that they then are making themselves out to be liars.
The two-edged sword slices both ways to ensure it landed the fatal blows, and these people weren't prepared for the truth leveled at them in love.
MM
Yes. A 2 edged sword cuts on the way in and on the way out.
In my reading this morning, this confirmed once again that we are no longer beholden to try and obey the Law of Moses:
Romans 10:1-4
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
That is so key to our understanding of the Law of Moses in relation to us who are in Christ Jesus. This isn't saying the Law has passed away, for it hasn't. The Law is what will condemn the unrighteous for their sins, and it is their sins that will condemn them to the pits of Hell.
This also strikes at the question some have asked, "How can a loving God cast anyone into Hell?"
That question has no meaning to the reality, for it is one's own sin that casts them into that place.
It's a good thing to obey the Law, but one will never be counted righteous for that. It's also certain that breaking many of the items in the Law of Moses is indeed sin. Yes. In Christ, we have His Law written upon our hearts, and therefore are no longer in need of a system of ordinances to govern our righteousness. With the righteousness of Christ imputed unto us who are in Him, the ordinances can't possibly do anything for us with what He who lived and fulfilled them perfectly has imputed to and upon us. Oh, what blessings He has given to us, and I want to bless Him with thanksgiving, worship and praise for it all. He is so worthy of our all.
MM
Romans 10:1-4
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
That is so key to our understanding of the Law of Moses in relation to us who are in Christ Jesus. This isn't saying the Law has passed away, for it hasn't. The Law is what will condemn the unrighteous for their sins, and it is their sins that will condemn them to the pits of Hell.
This also strikes at the question some have asked, "How can a loving God cast anyone into Hell?"
That question has no meaning to the reality, for it is one's own sin that casts them into that place.
It's a good thing to obey the Law, but one will never be counted righteous for that. It's also certain that breaking many of the items in the Law of Moses is indeed sin. Yes. In Christ, we have His Law written upon our hearts, and therefore are no longer in need of a system of ordinances to govern our righteousness. With the righteousness of Christ imputed unto us who are in Him, the ordinances can't possibly do anything for us with what He who lived and fulfilled them perfectly has imputed to and upon us. Oh, what blessings He has given to us, and I want to bless Him with thanksgiving, worship and praise for it all. He is so worthy of our all.
MM
Agreed. We do not keep the law because we can not keep the law!!!!!
And.....the Law was not given to save man to begin with.
Amen to that, brother. I recall one of the men Jesus healed who came back to Him to give thanks and the Lord told him to go and offer up the blood and burnt offerings according to the Law, and people have told me that we must do ALL that Jesus commanded those back then, under that covenant, before the cross.
(crickets)
I love the Law of Moses, for it's perfect...a perfection we can't live, even contrary to the things my Messianic Jewish friends have tried to tell me in that we earn reward in Heaven for obedience to it as best we can.
That always struck me as contradictory. Given that we can't keep it unto righteousness, how then can we hope to reap rewards in Heaven apart from a total obedience? The self-made authorities who invent man-made doctrines and convey them as truth just strokes the cat's fur the wrong way, like grabbing a tiger by the tail after having forgotten the teeth on the other end.
MM
(crickets)
I love the Law of Moses, for it's perfect...a perfection we can't live, even contrary to the things my Messianic Jewish friends have tried to tell me in that we earn reward in Heaven for obedience to it as best we can.
That always struck me as contradictory. Given that we can't keep it unto righteousness, how then can we hope to reap rewards in Heaven apart from a total obedience? The self-made authorities who invent man-made doctrines and convey them as truth just strokes the cat's fur the wrong way, like grabbing a tiger by the tail after having forgotten the teeth on the other end.
MM
Yes. The Law is good. I also Love the Law and it is not that it is bad, it is that we can not keep it.
Absolutely agree, Major.
This is what creates the difficulty for those who think that imperfect KEEPING of the Law can somehow magically transform into rewards in Heaven for at least attempting to keep it...or at least some elements of it. These man-made features give me a great deal of pause. The bent so many have upon creating doctrines out of thin air like this is worse than fingernails on a chalkboard.
So, what I've done in response to their claims is to repeat, "We can't keep the Law as did Jesus," to which they repeat, "We can reap reward for trying..."
(sigh)
Being adamant like that only leads to circular reasoning on their part, which serves as a tool to try and derail anyone undermining their pet doctrines with the truth. Their arguments in support of reward for trying to keep the Law is purely from silence so far as I can tell.
Jesus said:
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
The term "commandments" in this verse means (according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon)
"of the moral precepts of Christ and his apostles: ἐντολήν διδόναι, ἵνα, John 13:34; ἐντολήν γράφειν, 1 John 2:7f; (2 John 1:5); τάς ἐντολάς τηρεῖν, John (John 14:15);"
Many think "commandments" are the Law of Moses, which is not at all the case. What Christ commanded, and the Law of Moses, are not one and the same since Jesus was not alluding to that system of Law, but rather what He had been commending specifically in relation to His building of the Church through His apostles.
MM
This is what creates the difficulty for those who think that imperfect KEEPING of the Law can somehow magically transform into rewards in Heaven for at least attempting to keep it...or at least some elements of it. These man-made features give me a great deal of pause. The bent so many have upon creating doctrines out of thin air like this is worse than fingernails on a chalkboard.
So, what I've done in response to their claims is to repeat, "We can't keep the Law as did Jesus," to which they repeat, "We can reap reward for trying..."
(sigh)
Being adamant like that only leads to circular reasoning on their part, which serves as a tool to try and derail anyone undermining their pet doctrines with the truth. Their arguments in support of reward for trying to keep the Law is purely from silence so far as I can tell.
Jesus said:
John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
The term "commandments" in this verse means (according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon)
"of the moral precepts of Christ and his apostles: ἐντολήν διδόναι, ἵνα, John 13:34; ἐντολήν γράφειν, 1 John 2:7f; (2 John 1:5); τάς ἐντολάς τηρεῖν, John (John 14:15);"
Many think "commandments" are the Law of Moses, which is not at all the case. What Christ commanded, and the Law of Moses, are not one and the same since Jesus was not alluding to that system of Law, but rather what He had been commending specifically in relation to His building of the Church through His apostles.
MM
Hello brothers;
It's nice to read some Godly discussion with substance.
I agree with Major. We just cannot keep it and that's a humble confession in itself. When I hear we are a church without sinners, the gatherings are pleasant, the praise band plays the latest and greatest, the preacher says what I like to hear. This reminds me of Matthew 6:1, 1 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven.
The church is not a fellowship of sinless people
Musicmaster, I agree with you. By merely saying, I'm attempting to keep the law or Christ's love commandments, then God will reward me. Baloney. I have to confess there is still that element of an ulterior motive.
Each day I have to ask God to search my heart. I'm still not there yet and may never be in this lifetime.
When we spread our own doctrine (on our terms with God) this becomes dangerous, especially to the new believer. On a personal note, I support the firm Shepherd, though their tone may have some weight on it is because they take God serious and what He says, not on what we think.
God bless and thank you, brothers, for sharing.
God bless you my brother!
Yes......the Church is a hospital for the spiritually sick.....SAVED Sinners! We need the fellowship and corporate worship of our Lord to be re-energized from the weekly beat down from the world!
We as Christians are no better than anyone else. However.........we are FORGIVEN!
Bob, Major, I thank the Lord for you and all others here who bring great things to this.
I have attended some of the gatherings of my Messianic Jewish friends, and it's always something of interest when they dance around collectively, just as did the ancient Jews, sing some of the same songs in Hebrew as the Judeo ancients used to sing, etc. The atmosphere had that feel of, "We want to be like them..." I can't seem to shake that incessant vibe I pick up from them. It's almost as if they have completely forgotten that Abraham was a Gentile, and so thus the fact that the Jewish linage didn't crop up from some different set of parents other than Adam and Eve. Many in that group are converts to that "branch" of "Christianity," not actually of Jewish lineage. They wear the traditional Judeo garments with the tassels that we may see being worn by the Jews in Jerusalem today.
Laws and traditions... It all adds up to something that I don't necessarily see as value added to their faith in following Christ. They seem adamant that they know keeping the Law isn't possible. They recognize that, because of salvation that comes only through faith. What I've tried to share with them is what Jesus said..."If you love me, keep my commandments." This is the rub. He didn't say that keeping as much of the Law of Moses will bring reward in Heaven. The commandments the Lord writes on our hearts:
2 Corinthians 3:3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
The pervasive thinking among them is that this refers to the Law of Moses, for (in their beliefs) there is no other law. It's physical, it's what they can lay their hands upon, which is the tables of stone (so to speak). Living by the Spirit means that He writes His commands and laws upon our hearts, our inward parts:
Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
Psalm 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden [part] thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man [is] the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Jeremiah 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
I can't help but to be left with thoughts about reward in Heaven, and what scripture says about that:
Matthew 5:3-12
3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed [are] they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. 7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God. 9 Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
No mention of the Law of Moses.
Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
No mention of the Law of Moses.
We here are on the same page, in that the Law of Moses was for a chosen people at a different time. We are so blessed that the indwelling Lord lived it in our place before taking the penalty upon Himself for our breach of the perfect Law of Moses. Thank you, Jesus, for taking our sins away.
MM
I have attended some of the gatherings of my Messianic Jewish friends, and it's always something of interest when they dance around collectively, just as did the ancient Jews, sing some of the same songs in Hebrew as the Judeo ancients used to sing, etc. The atmosphere had that feel of, "We want to be like them..." I can't seem to shake that incessant vibe I pick up from them. It's almost as if they have completely forgotten that Abraham was a Gentile, and so thus the fact that the Jewish linage didn't crop up from some different set of parents other than Adam and Eve. Many in that group are converts to that "branch" of "Christianity," not actually of Jewish lineage. They wear the traditional Judeo garments with the tassels that we may see being worn by the Jews in Jerusalem today.
Laws and traditions... It all adds up to something that I don't necessarily see as value added to their faith in following Christ. They seem adamant that they know keeping the Law isn't possible. They recognize that, because of salvation that comes only through faith. What I've tried to share with them is what Jesus said..."If you love me, keep my commandments." This is the rub. He didn't say that keeping as much of the Law of Moses will bring reward in Heaven. The commandments the Lord writes on our hearts:
2 Corinthians 3:3 [Forasmuch as ye are] manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.
The pervasive thinking among them is that this refers to the Law of Moses, for (in their beliefs) there is no other law. It's physical, it's what they can lay their hands upon, which is the tables of stone (so to speak). Living by the Spirit means that He writes His commands and laws upon our hearts, our inward parts:
Job 38:36 Who hath put wisdom in the inward parts? or who hath given understanding to the heart?
Psalm 51:6 Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden [part] thou shalt make me to know wisdom.
Proverbs 20:27 The spirit of man [is] the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
Jeremiah 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
I can't help but to be left with thoughts about reward in Heaven, and what scripture says about that:
Matthew 5:3-12
3 Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed [are] they that mourn: for they shall be comforted. 5 Blessed [are] the meek: for they shall inherit the earth. 6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. 7 Blessed [are] the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy. 8 Blessed [are] the pure in heart: for they shall see God. 9 Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God. 10 Blessed [are] they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. 12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great [is] your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
No mention of the Law of Moses.
Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
No mention of the Law of Moses.
We here are on the same page, in that the Law of Moses was for a chosen people at a different time. We are so blessed that the indwelling Lord lived it in our place before taking the penalty upon Himself for our breach of the perfect Law of Moses. Thank you, Jesus, for taking our sins away.
MM
10-4, you're coming in loud and clear good buddy.
In Alabama the red necks there I know say............55..22!