Speaking In Tongues

JustPassingThru said:
When I was a child my grandmother, who was in a cult, used satanic power to heal me and it worked, I got my fingers caught under a manhole cover and in pulling them out I ripped the skin and flesh off of them down to the bone, I could see the bones of my fingers, I ran home, she bandaged them and the next morning she told me to take off the bandages 'cause my fingers were healed, I did and they were, and today there aren't any scars, I just looked to check, so the question is who healed me? My grandmother lived three months short of one hundred years and she died rejected Jesus Christ, I know because I was there giving her the Gospel.
In His Love,

Gene
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Well Gene,we are just going to have to disagree about tongues, and faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God. You meditate on Laying hands on the sick as Jesus instructed that builds faith in what the word said. When it's time to move by the direction of the Holy Spirit you do so without doubt because of the Word in you.

Jesus said concerning the Word.
And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given.
(Mar 4:24)

So it's pretty clear that you gave heed to the scriptures about healing and since you did it was measured back to you and that you studied yourself approved you get to be a workman. It's not just some faith God dumped on you to be used that way, you had to have heard and you believed it. When it was time to act, it was real to you.

As for tongues, Paul called it speaking to our self and God. He called it praying in the spirit. So, being around it as long as I have, it's one gift for prayer use that believers can have. It's so simple that if someone gave the same heed to wanting that it's theirs.

It's the only gift out of the 9 Jesus mentioned to be ours that believe on him. Lay hands on the sick is the same provision in James for sick people and God will rise them up. The prayer of faith saves the sick, James did not say it's the gifts of Healing that save the sick as that powerful gifts comes at the spirit wills.

I bet if you spent some time seeking, then I know it would not be hard.

Here is what the Lord said.............. I healed you. Not grandma, or the devil he had someone praying for you, and knew about your grandma. That is why I asked because I saw that your life is now because the Lord had many pray on your behalf. I don't know how that works or why you got all that prayer and some don't. It could be those you ran into were obedient or the Lord had a plan?
Anyway, that is why I asked.

If we only had faith in just how much prayer can save someone, We would pray for others more often.

Silk said:
Any healer I ever talked to, said it was God alone who did the healing. And I agree with Michael, that the recipient has to be ready to receive.
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Amen.

The same heard Paul speak: who stedfastly beholding him, and perceiving that he had faith to be healed, Said with a loud voice, Stand upright on thy feet. And he leaped and walked.
(Act 14:9-10)

Paul just not have been teaching it's not always God's will to heal that day.

blessings.
 
When I was a child my grandmother, who was in a cult, used satanic power to heal me and it worked, I got my fingers caught under a manhole cover and in pulling them out I ripped the skin and flesh off of them down to the bone, I could see the bones of my fingers, I ran home, she bandaged them and the next morning she told me to take off the bandages 'cause my fingers were healed, I did and they were, and today there aren't any scars, I just looked to check, so the question is who healed me? My grandmother lived three months short of one hundred years and she died rejected Jesus Christ, I know because I was there giving her the Gospel.
In His Love,

Gene

The devil can undo what the devil has done...familiars are assigned to families...this is how it seems like necromancers have your relatives speak to you allegedly from beyond....the secret things these spirits know are because they were their causing these things...this is why sometimes a person is healed and other times needs to be delivered. It looks exactly like an injury or condition but it is the work of malevolent spirits, and yes I have a little experience with this.

brother Paul
 
Brother Paul said:
When I was a child my grandmother, who was in a cult, used satanic power to heal me and it worked, I got my fingers caught under a manhole cover and in pulling them out I ripped the skin and flesh off of them down to the bone, I could see the bones of my fingers, I ran home, she bandaged them and the next morning she told me to take off the bandages 'cause my fingers were healed, I did and they were, and today there aren't any scars, I just looked to check, so the question is who healed me? My grandmother lived three months short of one hundred years and she died rejected Jesus Christ, I know because I was there giving her the Gospel.
In His Love,

Gene

The devil can undo what the devil has done...familiars are assigned to families...this is how it seems like necromancers have your relatives speak to you allegedly from beyond....the secret things these spirits know are because they were their causing these things...this is why sometimes a person is healed and other times needs to be delivered. It looks exactly like an injury or condition but it is the work of malevolent spirits, and yes I have a little experience with this.

brother Paul
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Have you had demonic oppression during your life as a result of granny's occult involvement?

If so, how did you release yourself from their desire to continue onto your fourth generation?
 
Major said:
Please note that I did not say I agreed with the action, I just commented that it was out there that Mark 16 ends with verse #8 due to the fact it was not in the two oldest manuscripts. That does not mean I agree, just that it is the fact.
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So lets see...Irenaeus, Syriac Peshitta, and Hippolytus quote this section from the 2nd century, and Cyprian alludes to these actions in the early 3rd, Jerome (who referred to the best Manuscripts of his time) includes them in his translation, and all before the two alleged "best" (totally a value judgment) you are referring to were written. Of those two (which disagree in 1,000s of places with 95% of our extant samples of scripture) which so severely contradict each other in over 3,000 places (just in the gospels alone) Vaticanus has a space where either these were to go or had been deleted. They include different books not included in the Canon and end books in entirely obscure places (Sinaiticus ends the Bible with Hebrews in the 9th chapter, so if this were best that ends the scriptures). Both so are heavily edited (Vaticanus in the 8th and 12th centuries, Sinaiticus also heavily edited had been allegedly discarded by the earlier church...why) that we can see changes were made in many of these places!

In light of these facts how can anyone conclude they are "best"? I know you said "oldest" and perhaps these are at this time (from nearly 500 years after Christ's Apostles taught the church and passed on the autographs and first copies) the oldest somewhat complete manuscripts (as a collection) but hardly are they something we should rely on for truth because as pointed out they are in stark disagreement with each other and both disagree with 95% of our 20,000 samples. In fact all divergent samples (which all disagree with each other) only represent 1,000 of our examples. Finally both of these texts are from the west and we know from Eusibius that all the autographs were entrusted to the east except Mark which went first to Alexandria (check the only slightly younger Alexandrinus and they are fully included)...therefore it is obvious these two are not the "oldest", only the oldest collections we have at this time and even they are incomplete.

Just my $.02

brother Paul
 
We have gone very far off topic...

Consider this and comment...IF one speaks in a tongue IN church having an interpreter allows the church to be edified, but Paul speaks of a tongues that "no man understands"...how many is NONE? Secondly, in this manifestation of tongues the person is speaking mysteries to God, NOT God speaking mysteries through them (often misunderstood) as the case in the Pentecost scenario or a case where the speaker speaks to a mixed crowd and they each HEAR in their own language (that's quite different) again like at the Pentecost scenario (this same gift is manifest in Cornelius household)...

IMO these are two different things...one God speaks through a person but every one hears uniquely...the other the person speaks to God and no man understands

thoughts?
 
Brother Paul said:
IMO these are two different things...one God speaks through a person but every one hears uniquely...the other the person speaks to God and no man understands

thoughts?
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One would really have to operate in this and be around it when it's used correctly to understand and compare scriptures. It's like explaining just exactly how the gift of Miracles work. Water to wine, what can you explain about that?

Acts we see everyone who received the Holy Spirit speak in tongues and/or Prophecy. Some of the tongues was in a unknown language to the speaker but known by some of the others saying, "Ya all been drinking?"

tongues we speak mysteries to God, and to ourselves. Tongues edify us,build up our faith we have. We do the speaking and the Holy Spirit helps us. I can only hope Paul meant it's a mystery to us, our understanding unfruitful. If it's a mystery to God then we might be wasting time here.

Paul whole instruction about the gift was that everything must be done decent and in order. Looking at Acts, it looks like everyone filled with the power of the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues and so everyone came wanting to use the gift when it was not helping anyone.

Paul said when you gather together or in Church the Holy Spirit distributes as the Spirit wills. A good indication that the Holy Spirit should be running the service and not everyone doing their own thing.

What I know and seen over and over.
Tongues that get interpreted often sound different than the normal tongues a person speaks. It's like a different operation, though same gift. If you talk to those that speak in tongues you often hear...... My tongues shifted........ The language changed.

Then I heard the Lord say to me.

There is no scripture that covers this, but I find it true every time I pray long enough in tongues also. It seems staying with it and taking it serious gets results, or deeper into the Spirit.

So I wonder if the tongues that gets interpreted by someone else is the Holy Spirit moving with the gift in a church setting on people and not just what we pray at home with.

We only have scripture with word of Knowledge, and spiritual discernment and word of wisdom such as Paul saying I perceive this voyage will be with much hurt. Being spiritual things, it's hard to just write it down all the possible things God can do while the Holy Spirit is moving.

My stance is that if there is no counter scripture then Possible. I was praying in tongues and had a vision is not something one would expect but can happen as the spirit wills.

We were praying in tongues and gold dust fell everywhere is something I would not accept as I have no scripture explaining gold dust anywhere.

Blessings.
 
Brother Paul said:
So lets see...Irenaeus, Syriac Peshitta, and Hippolytus quote this section from the 2nd century, and Cyprian alludes to these actions in the early 3rd, Jerome (who referred to the best Manuscripts of his time) includes them in his translation, and all before the two alleged "best" (totally a value judgment) you are referring to were written. Of those two (which disagree in 1,000s of places with 95% of our extant samples of scripture) which so severely contradict each other in over 3,000 places (just in the gospels alone) Vaticanus has a space where either these were to go or had been deleted. They include different books not included in the Canon and end books in entirely obscure places (Sinaiticus ends the Bible with Hebrews in the 9th chapter, so if this were best that ends the scriptures). Both so are heavily edited (Vaticanus in the 8th and 12th centuries, Sinaiticus also heavily edited had been allegedly discarded by the earlier church...why) that we can see changes were made in many of these places!

In light of these facts how can anyone conclude they are "best"? I know you said "oldest" and perhaps these are at this time (from nearly 500 years after Christ's Apostles taught the church and passed on the autographs and first copies) the oldest somewhat complete manuscripts (as a collection) but hardly are they something we should rely on for truth because as pointed out they are in stark disagreement with each other and both disagree with 95% of our 20,000 samples. In fact all divergent samples (which all disagree with each other) only represent 1,000 of our examples. Finally both of these texts are from the west and we know from Eusibius that all the autographs were entrusted to the east except Mark which went first to Alexandria (check the only slightly younger Alexandrinus and they are fully included)...therefore it is obvious these two are not the "oldest", only the oldest collections we have at this time and even they are incomplete.

Just my $.02

brother Paul
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Paul, again it seems to me that you are trying to be argumenitive over something that simply is not there.

You are speaking to the choir my brother. Again.....I am not saying anything whatsoever, I just stated what is out there in the world of Christian learning.

From "Bible Research Foundation" :......
"Mark 16:9-20 has been called a later addition to the Gospel of Mark by most New Testament scholars in the past century. The main reason for doubting the authenticity of the ending is that it does not appear in some of the oldest existing witnesses, and it is reported to be absent from many others in ancient times by early writers of the Church. Moreover, the ending has some stylistic features which also suggest that it came from another hand. The Gospel is obviously incomplete without these verses, and so most scholars believe that the final leaf of the original manuscript was lost, and that the ending which appears in English versions today (verses 9-20) was supplied during the second century. Below are some excerpts from various scholarly sources that conclude that the verses are a later addition."

THAT is what is said, BUT I did not say it.

The point I was making was that verses 9-20 of Mark 16 have been under severe critcism by the higher critics of Christian teaching for amost 2000 years. Those verses have been called into question by textual scholars of both the conservative and the liberal camps. Drs. Wescott and Hort omit the verses completely from their Greek text.

The fact is that two of the better manuscripts omit them entirely and Aleph and the Vatican manuscripts end Mark's gospel at verse #8. That however has nothing to do with me as I just reported it, I did not complie it. Don't shoot the messenger!!!!!

Personally..........I believe the last 12 verses are a part of the inspired portion of the Word of God. The fact that the omission of them from two of the better manuscripts is not enough grounds to remove them from the Scriptures especially when all the other manuscripts and uncials contain them.
 
MichaelH said:
One would really have to operate in this and be around it when it's used correctly to understand and compare scriptures. It's like explaining just exactly how the gift of Miracles work. Water to wine, what can you explain about that?

Acts we see everyone who received the Holy Spirit speak in tongues and/or Prophecy. Some of the tongues was in a unknown language to the speaker but known by some of the others saying, "Ya all been drinking?"

tongues we speak mysteries to God, and to ourselves. Tongues edify us,build up our faith we have. We do the speaking and the Holy Spirit helps us. I can only hope Paul meant it's a mystery to us, our understanding unfruitful. If it's a mystery to God then we might be wasting time here.

Paul whole instruction about the gift was that everything must be done decent and in order. Looking at Acts, it looks like everyone filled with the power of the Holy Spirit spoke in tongues and so everyone came wanting to use the gift when it was not helping anyone.

Paul said when you gather together or in Church the Holy Spirit distributes as the Spirit wills. A good indication that the Holy Spirit should be running the service and not everyone doing their own thing.

What I know and seen over and over.
Tongues that get interpreted often sound different than the normal tongues a person speaks. It's like a different operation, though same gift. If you talk to those that speak in tongues you often hear...... My tongues shifted........ The language changed.

Then I heard the Lord say to me.

There is no scripture that covers this, but I find it true every time I pray long enough in tongues also. It seems staying with it and taking it serious gets results, or deeper into the Spirit.

So I wonder if the tongues that gets interpreted by someone else is the Holy Spirit moving with the gift in a church setting on people and not just what we pray at home with.

We only have scripture with word of Knowledge, and spiritual discernment and word of wisdom such as Paul saying I perceive this voyage will be with much hurt. Being spiritual things, it's hard to just write it down all the possible things God can do while the Holy Spirit is moving.

My stance is that if there is no counter scripture then Possible. I was praying in tongues and had a vision is not something one would expect but can happen as the spirit wills.

We were praying in tongues and gold dust fell everywhere is something I would not accept as I have no scripture explaining gold dust anywhere.

Blessings.
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Hi Micheal...I agree with most of what you said here and definitely gifts overlap and sometimes categorization is merely human theological reasoning (like when I laid hands on and prayed for my two daughters with raging strept...one was healed the next day and the other only eventually). Now I laid on hands and prayed knowing GOd would honor His word and they both recovered, but the healing was a miracle...all IMO because in this case God honored my faith in His word (so faith, healing, miracle?). The Spirit as you will know administers these severally as He wills...

But as for the speaker speaking mysteries to God, I in no way implied it was a mystery to God (as if He who is omniscient did not know), these are mysteries to the speaker, but from the speaker to-Godward...you see? The pentecost reference was because there were people (Jewish believers) from all over many countries and the Bible says each heard them in their own language (Parthian, Greek, etc.,) but I am convinced the Apostles were speaking Hebrew Aramaic and the hearing was what made this particular instance special (as God was speaking through them to the people)...see how this is different? Maybe not...
 
There are only 3 times I tried to "lay hands". The first was an older gentleman who was in frail health and had emphysma. Invited to dinner, it looked to be a short evening, as he was feeling very bad. I offered to try laying on hands. I have a star of David in the center of each palm, and if I concentrate and pray to God, a palpable column of heat/energy comes from the stars. So I tried, and he felt very good - like he hadn't in a long time - and we stayed late. The next day he felt terrible. A few months later, he died. The other two times was with my parents - and each died. I can understand why I don't get this "gift" - I would want to heal everyone - starting with myself.
 
Even when the Spirit manifests a gift severally as He wills it is not necessarily something you always have...my wife Salome and I have had many answered prayers...seen many get well but not always (that's His decision for His reasons)...I have seen people believe for situational developments and even things, which seemed to me to be against all odds, but they happened (but not always...ultimately that is as He wills)

As for tongues, there are many abuses and fakes, but not always...I have rarely been the recipient of this blessing but when it has manifest it was always from within the spirit God birthed in me. I see trying to speak in tongues or rehearsing syllables, etc., as self hypnosis and self deception...but when those times come when in prayer they begin to flow..oh hallelujah, what a blessing...what joy fills my heart...so I say people should not throw the baby out with the bath water...

There have been manifestations of the gifts of the Spirit all through the history of the church. Now certainly not to the degree to, or with the command given, which the Apostles shared in starting the church, but there at times off and on, nonetheless. What is your understanding?

brother Paul
 
Well, I think there are real healers, speakers in tongues, the ability to prophesize - I myself have seen some exceptional miracles. I don't like saying it, but I think there are a lot more of the not real kind. It makes the real ones harder to hear. If and when I speak in tongues, I want it to be the kind where everyone understands.
 
Silk said:
Well, I think there are real healers, speakers in tongues, the ability to prophesize - I myself have seen some exceptional miracles. I don't like saying it, but I think there are a lot more of the not real kind. It makes the real ones harder to hear. If and when I speak in tongues, I want it to be the kind where everyone understands.
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Then if American always speak in English unless in a Spanish or Haitian church then always speak in Spanish or Creole...
 
[QUOTEYou meditate on Laying hands on the sick as Jesus instructed that builds faith in what the word said.][/QUOTE]

But Peter and John didn't meditate before the lame man was healed, we read they fastened their eyes on him, I didn't meditate before laying my hands on my friend, ...she was subject to severe nose bleed, we were driving on the freeway when one started, I pulled off on the next off ramp and drove up to the convenience store, I jumped out of the car, ran into the store to buy a roll of paper towels and a large cup of ice, as I was scooping the ice into the cup the impression to lay hands on her for healing came into my heart, I thought, yeah right, (at that time in my life I was a brand new Christian, a baby in Christ in a church that taught we could lose our salvation and the sign gifts were not for today) I paid for the stuff and went out to the car, I gave her the ice and the towels and told her I had the impression I was to lay hands on her to be healed, she was as shocked as I was because we both attended the same church, she didn't have any faith she would be healed and neither did I, she wrapped the ice in the towels, placed it on her forehead, I placed my hand on her and not knowing what to say I just said, "in the name of Jesus be healed," ...and the blood stopped flowing, immediately, and to my knowledge they never came back.

So you see, I didn't meditate, I didn't have faith, she didn't have faith, I didn't obey any Scripture, she didn't have any Scripture to believe, in fact we had been taught against it, ...it was just like the instance in Acts, it was the Lord's timing and I was the tool He chose to use, and that was the beginning of the end for me in that church, because I couldn't deny what had happened.

Mike, please listen to me, unless the tongue is the Tahitian language I'm not interested in speaking in tongues, not in the least, Paul said it was speaking to God, but for me I want to know with my intelligence what I'm saying to Him, I have so much to say to Him I don't have any time for gibberish, I know what I want to say, ...actually, this is going to sound prideful, but that is not my intention, ...I'm so far beyond speaking in tongues in my walk with the Lord that I consider it to be child's play, now please, let me explain, I'm not saying I'm perfect, I'll be the first to tell Paul to move over because I'm the chief of sinners, but here is something you don't understand, I've been alone with the Lord for 23 years, no church, no pastor, no like minded Christian friends to talk to, no radio, no TV, just my Bible and the only one I've had to talk to was the Lord, out of those 23 years I've only had internet for the last 10, the first thing I did was to find the men I had learned from on the radio before I left and listen to them, why, because I wanted to make sure what I had been taught by the Lord was correct, it blew my mind, the Lord had taught me in my desert experience the same things that I was hearing on the net 13 years later, that conformation was a real faith builder, now that you understand how I was and am continuing to be taught, I want to explain why I'm beyond speaking in tongues, ...our walk together is close, it could be closer if I was more faithful, but His love, mercy and grace is unfathomable, ...it all started with learning the still small voice of the Lord, at first an impression would come into my heart as to what tool I needed to take with me to work (I'm a maintenance man for 78 apartments and at that time I drove a scooter so my space to carry tools was limited), sometimes it was a tool I was certain I wouldn't need, so I didn't take it, but then later on in the day an unexpected repair would come up and I needed the very tool He told me to take, needless to say that got my attention, from then on every time He told me to take a tool I didn't think I would need I took it anyway and every time I needed that tool that very day, then one day my boss asked me to build a very complicated piece of furniture for Him in my cabinet shop, I didn't have the slightest idea how to build it (cabinetry and furniture making is not my trade, I always wanted to learn, I had the tools but didn't really know how to use them), the morning I went to my cabinet shop to start building it an emergency came up at the apartments so I didn't have time to start that day, the next day it was the same thing, on the third day (and my daily Bible reading was in Exodus where God told Moses He would put His Spirit in the men to build the Tabernacle) as I was walking to my cabinet shop the plans, the jigs to build to hold and cut the pieces, what pieces to make first and how to assemble it all just came into my head............., PTL and He is faithful and is still telling me how to build furniture for my boss 5 years later, not only furniture, I'm also the construction superintendent for their remodels, He gives me insight into where there are unseen problems, what needs to be replaced, .......the list is so long I could write for hours and just scratch the surface, I have a moment by moment walk with the Lord, ...so why would I want to give all of that up to mumble something to Him that I didn't understand, ...I'm responsible for spending hundreds of thousands of dollars , choosing the correct contractors and materials that won't cost my boss more in the end, I have real problems that come into my life that are my responsibility to correct that effect and touch the lives of many people, I need to talk to Him about the situation and hear clearly what He is saying,...just think about it, if I were to mumble something unintelligible to Him and He answered how would I know what He was talking about?

Sorry this is so long, but I hope from this you can see that what you are saying isn't correct, look at your quote, you say your faith is built up through meditation, and that is meditating on the Word, but Peter and John didn't meditate on a verse, they acted in faith, I didn't meditate on a verse I (unknowingly) acted in faith, the man with a withered hand didn't meditate on a verse He obeyed what Jesus told him to do, ...faith is an action resulting from hearing from God and then in faith obeying, just read all of the recorded accounts of people in the Word obeying in faith, they didn't meditate, the acted, ...I don't need a formula to be used by God, and I don't have to speak in tongues to be used by Him either, it's just in childlike faith I believe what He has said to me through His Word and what He speaks to me in my heart, that is where my faith is anchored, firmly planted, unmovable, confident He will complete the work He has started in me.

Blessings,

Gene
 
Satan does and can make people sick, we read Job was smote with sore boils by satan, Jesus taught the woman stooped over illness was caused by satan Lk 13:16, he can enter into people to manipulate them (but not born again believers), yes it true God is the source of all power, but He is letting satan use it for a short time, satan is on a short leash, but Scripture teaches he does have a limited amount of supernatural allowed to him.

Blessings,

Gene
 
but for me I want to know with my intelligence what I'm saying to Him, I have so much to say to Him I don't have any time for gibberish, I know what I want to say

I think you miss the point brother, it does not come from your intellect, it is a gift of the Spirit moving you in your spirit (not intellectually discerned). As Paul said He prays with the understanding and with the spirit...(at this time the understanding is not fruitful)...
 
Brother Paul said:
but for me I want to know with my intelligence what I'm saying to Him, I have so much to say to Him I don't have any time for gibberish, I know what I want to say

I think you miss the point brother, it does not come from your intellect, it is a gift of the Spirit moving you in your spirit (not intellectually discerned). As Paul said He prays with the understanding and with the spirit...(at this time the understanding is not fruitful)...
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Paul is saying he prays with the spirit AND understanding. I pray also with the spirit but without speaking in tongues.
 
[QUOTE
Have you had demonic oppression during your life as a result of granny's occult involvement?

If so, how did you release yourself from their desire to continue onto your fourth generation?
][/QUOTE]

Yup, sure did, but wasn't from grandma, it was from taking too much LSD, left me paranoid until finally went nuts in my 33rd year, I believed I would die when I was 33 years old, I can see now it was by the grace of God the psychiatric community allowed me to be an outpatient rather than locking me up in the nut house, five days after I went nuts a friend took me to church, they knew there was something wrong with me, in fact there was a mental hospital in our town and some thought I was an escapee, and though my friend never said I'm certain they told her not to bring me back, however a man gave me his Bible to read, it had the words of Jesus in read, I found that in reading those words I could still my racing mind and sleep for a few minutes, it took 18 months before they declared me healed, ...I can look back and see how Father was using that to awaken me out of my sleep of death Eph 2:1, lovingly drawing me to Himself.

As for the third or fourth generation, it's our sins, not demonic oppression, ...can't say it has been broken yet, I know I'm at least the second generation because my mother became an unwed mother at 15, I was a devout fornicator before Jesus set me free, however my two daughters are following in our footsteps, but I'm praying for them, holding on real tight to, ...you shall be saved and your household. Acts 16:31

blessings,

Gene
 
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