Speaking In Tongues
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MichaelH
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Ya Major, you think in the few years I have been studying the Word of God that I never heard that a group of folks would like to erase Mark 16 staring at verse 9?
I never heard it for the reasons you gave as people just remove whatever they don't want to believe all the time. Most the time it's because folks don't like what Mark suggest about what day the Sabbath is on, so it can't be possible Mark 16 is right.
Doubt, unbelief and religion does that.
However, I already gave the scripture that Paul said speaking in tongues is praying in the spirit. Since it's praying in the Holy Ghost then it's something we as believers ought to look into. God would not give one believer a awesome set of tools to use in prayer and tell someone else they can't have it. God is no respecter of persons, but he is a respecter of faith.
I had one preterist tell me that the 6th seal has already passed in 70ad. I asked him then why do we still have stars in the sky because Isaiah and many other places God removes all of it.
He told me that the 6th seal was just hyperbole (symbolic to the point we don't get it)
What do you say to people like that? If you say so...............
Blessings.
Major said: ↑
Actually Mike, Mark 16:9-20 was not included in the two oldest manuscripts nor was it in other ancient reliable sources. So from the beginning Bible scholars have concluded that Mark ended at verse #8.
The same dilemma exists in the matter of the beast of revelation. Some manuscripts say 666 others say 616..which is correct?
I don't know, nor does anyone else I know of.
So, what sort of guidelines does the Bible give us for resolving these sorts of dilemmas? Well Paul wrote the following which seem to me to be very sound advise.
2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Yes, even what Paul has written must be subject to this rule. Is it?
Deu_19:15 "A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established.
Num_35:30 "If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses. But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness.
So these verses are specific to capital punishment...true, however there is a principle being laid down which I believe Paul has applied to non life/death matters and we need to do the same.
Is there a corroborative witness to establish those latter verses of Ch16? No, but that does not invalidate them, we just need to view them as unverified and unverifiable and not hack away at each other's faith.
Actually Mike, Mark 16:9-20 was not included in the two oldest manuscripts nor was it in other ancient reliable sources. So from the beginning Bible scholars have concluded that Mark ended at verse #8.
OK, Come on now, it is sometimes difficult to wrestle with conflicting sources. The reality is that some manuscripts include the latter part of ch16 while others do not. Which is correct?? It could be argued that the longer version is correct and preserved by the Holy Spirit for us.......it could also be argued that the shorter version was unearthed to lead us out of error. But which one is really correct?
The same dilemma exists in the matter of the beast of revelation. Some manuscripts say 666 others say 616..which is correct?
I don't know, nor does anyone else I know of.
So, what sort of guidelines does the Bible give us for resolving these sorts of dilemmas? Well Paul wrote the following which seem to me to be very sound advise.
2Co 13:1 This is the third time I am coming to you. Every charge must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses.
Yes, even what Paul has written must be subject to this rule. Is it?
Deu_19:15 "A single witness shall not suffice against a person for any crime or for any wrong in connection with any offense that he has committed. Only on the evidence of two witnesses or of three witnesses shall a charge be established.
Num_35:30 "If anyone kills a person, the murderer shall be put to death on the evidence of witnesses. But no person shall be put to death on the testimony of one witness.
So these verses are specific to capital punishment...true, however there is a principle being laid down which I believe Paul has applied to non life/death matters and we need to do the same.
Is there a corroborative witness to establish those latter verses of Ch16? No, but that does not invalidate them, we just need to view them as unverified and unverifiable and not hack away at each other's faith.
MichaelH
Inactive
Good points Calvin. Your going to jump on one side if you actually care enough about it to do so. I fully believe God is more than able to preserve His word and kick out the nonsense. If all of Mark 16 was not suppose to be there then it would not be in My bible. I trust God to make sure I have what I am suppose to have.
Someone might take another stance but I think you will find they have doubt and unbelief or some reliegious agenda getting in the way as being the reason they want something added or removed.
Mark 16 presents some with a Sabbath issue that make people mad. I could care less, I don't pick a day to serve the Lord more than others. It just matters to religious folks. All the rest can be validated by other scriptures so the Miracle part is not an issue.
Some believe that a scripture in John should not be there. 3 that bare witness and they are one. I am not a Trinity or Oneness fan, but to me it's not a big deal because Husband and Wife are one flesh. I don't think it changes anything to say The Father, Word and Holy Spirit are as one.
Jesus said He is one with the Father, and we are One in Him. I think other scriptures validate it enough, even if someone did add it in. I am saying that even though I don't buy into the Trinity or Oneness position. It's good enough for me.
Blessings.
Please note that I did not say I agreed with the action, I just commented that it was out there that Mark 16 ends with verse #8 due to the fact it was not in the two oldest manuscripts. That does not mean I agree, just that it is the fact.
MichaelH
Inactive
If you don't agree Major, then why bring it up? I gave my testimony for when those guys put bleach in my coffee. The scripture some think should not be there is the one I quoted and believed. If it had not been true then I don't believe God would be obligated to uphold his Word with signs following.
Way back I had been cleaning with bleach and my son just grabbed the cup it was in and took a big gulp. It was diluted though pretty good but still, Bleach is not good to drink.
He coughed and was having a bit of a issue while I was grabbing my coat and ready to run him to the emergency room for being so stupid as to no have dumped that cup of diluted bleach.
He said, Dad, it's OK............ Jesus said if you drink any poisons it won't hurt you.
What do you do as a parent in this case? It was a rough night but i asked him if he was sure He believed what Jesus said and he said yes, He will be fine.
It was hard but If he believed what Jesus said, then I was not going to over ride that. I wanted to take him in anyway just to get him checked out and he kept insisting Jesus never lied dad.
He was fine and it was not a very strong bleach mix. So I have to say, the scripture should be there, and I don't keep a Sabbath so I don't bother about the first part.
Blessings.
Then how come Irenaeus quotes Mark 16:9 (in Against Heresies) from his manuscript earlier than these two corrupted copies which disagree with each other by over 200 years...
There are 3,036 textual variations between Sinaiticus and Vaticanus in the text of the Gospels alone, enumerated as follows:
656 in Matthew
567 in Mark
791 in Luke
1022 in John
And in 90% of these cases are in total disagreement with the quotations from earlier Texts quoted by those who received the originals from the Apostles and their immediate disciples…
I'll go with the earliest fathers anytime...thus V and S are neither "better" or "older" this is an intentional misrepresentation...
What would I do as a parent?
Pray for God's help, protection and healing and then go the hospital for emergency care.
MichaelH
Inactive
I wanted to do that..............
My son told me if Jesus said it, then it will be OK.
Same scripture I used (But My bleach was not diluted and it really was very diluted.
However I don't ask God for protection or Healing. I do tell the devil about what God said about those things though and If the devil wants to keep bringing them up I quote the devil some scripture and thank God that He said and always performs His Word, that He is not a Liar, and it would be impossible for my hope to be made ashamed. If God said it, it stands fast, and is true for eternity.
As I said it was really diluted. Enough to sanitize my counters as I was cleaning, still......... It bothered me greatly but I was not going to go against his faith. I was shocked he even Quoted part of Mark 16 to me.
That was the son that was suppose to be dead from cancer. He is very strong in faith, and even corrects me if I say something not lined up in the Word. He is 23 now.
Blessings
May the Lord bless him and use him and be gracious to him, shining His face upon him, and fill him with His shalom...
MichaelH
Inactive
Thank you Brother Paul. He went through hell it seemed to me (Though Hell be much worse) with bone marrow taken from his hip every day and spinal tap every day to check for cancer cells. They did all they could do. Talking with him about it the other day He said He just remembered they had a nintendo for him to play. He does not remember dying slowly and I am thankful for that. He just remembers playing nintendo.
That is a wonderful testimony and it thrills my heart to see that your son is still with you. God has surely blessed you and that is what it is all about!
MichaelH
Inactive
Thank you so much Major. I am so thankful, and sometimes tear up thinking about it. However, I am not special and my excitement is that What God did for me, he will do for someone else and their family. I just can't imagine having the empty dinner spot at the table and would never want any family to have to suffer through that loss.
What I believed through it was a lot different than most though. It was so sad when my son still had to visit the cancer Ward for check ups and meeting other parents who's children were not doing that well. The just said they are praying and hope it's God's will their kid lives. You almost want to slap them and tell them they don't have to loose their kid.
All I did was just tell the devil to take his hands off my son the day I heard it. That was it. When the devil bothered me about it because we have to do something with thoughts, and sometimes constant thoughts I just thanked God that He said with Long life I'll satisfy him. I would tell God that I won't take an evil report because that cost Israel the promised land. No, I only take the good report and by faith the elders obtained a good report.
I just told God Thank you that you said to Joshua not one thing has failed there of all the things the Lord said concerning you.
What God done for me, He will do for anyone. I get excited when I see God help people.
The only thing I did different was being fully convinced that What God said, that was how it was going to end up. Anyone can mediate on the Word long enough to be also convinced of that.
blessings.
You are doing well and I appreciate your enthusiasm for what you believe. I know for sure that you are born again and I pray for the Lord Jesus to fill your heart and give you peace, joy and contentment!
Mike, I'm not doubting the experiences, but what I'm going to say will hurt, so I'm hoping you, being filled with the Holy Spirit, will receive it in love and self control and prayerfully consider what I'm about to say.
Again I reiterate, this may hurt and pride might rebel against it, but even though it will hurt that is not my intention, only to help and for the best interests of you and your son.
When I was a child my grandmother, who was in a cult, used satanic power to heal me and it worked, I got my fingers caught under a manhole cover and in pulling them out I ripped the skin and flesh off of them down to the bone, I could see the bones of my fingers, I ran home, she bandaged them and the next morning she told me to take off the bandages 'cause my fingers were healed, I did and they were, and today there aren't any scars, I just looked to check, so the question is who healed me? My grandmother lived three months short of one hundred years and she died rejected Jesus Christ, I know because I was there giving her the Gospel.
Paul teaches us that we will all stand before the Bema Seat of Christ to receive our rewards for what we have done in the Body, he tells us there will be people that have thought they have done something for the Lord, but it will be revealed at that day it wasn't of the Lord and will be burned up, so can you see I have your and your sons best interests in mind? You tell us you have healed people by speaking in tongues, so then why don't you go to the hospitals and put them out of business? I don't mean to be harsh, but can't you see that is just a logical question for someone that can heal people?
May I briefly explain a verse that teaches healing, you know it, Peter and John were going to the temple and they healed a lame man, the point is, even though Jesus had walk by that lame man many, many times in His life He didn't heal him, because it wasn't God's timing, healing take place when the person God has chosen to use meets the person to be healed at the correct time, because not only did Jesus walk by the man many times so had Peter and John, it was God's time to heal the man for His glory.
I've been healed many times by the Lord, almost always I didn't know I had been healed until some time passed and I realized I didn't have that problem any more, only once in 27 years has the Lord told me to lay hands on someone and they were supernaturally , instantaneously healed, and I doubted all the time I was praying for her, but she was healed even with my unbelief, ...because it was God's sovereign will and in His timing.
What I'm saying is, you have faith in your faith of speaking in tongues, but that is not faith in God and Him telling you what His will is, the reason I'm saying this is you and your son can continue on, Father loves you and won't stop you, but when you stand before Jesus for your rewards I don't want to see you or your son come away empty handed.
In His Love,
Gene
Again I reiterate, this may hurt and pride might rebel against it, but even though it will hurt that is not my intention, only to help and for the best interests of you and your son.
When I was a child my grandmother, who was in a cult, used satanic power to heal me and it worked, I got my fingers caught under a manhole cover and in pulling them out I ripped the skin and flesh off of them down to the bone, I could see the bones of my fingers, I ran home, she bandaged them and the next morning she told me to take off the bandages 'cause my fingers were healed, I did and they were, and today there aren't any scars, I just looked to check, so the question is who healed me? My grandmother lived three months short of one hundred years and she died rejected Jesus Christ, I know because I was there giving her the Gospel.
Paul teaches us that we will all stand before the Bema Seat of Christ to receive our rewards for what we have done in the Body, he tells us there will be people that have thought they have done something for the Lord, but it will be revealed at that day it wasn't of the Lord and will be burned up, so can you see I have your and your sons best interests in mind? You tell us you have healed people by speaking in tongues, so then why don't you go to the hospitals and put them out of business? I don't mean to be harsh, but can't you see that is just a logical question for someone that can heal people?
May I briefly explain a verse that teaches healing, you know it, Peter and John were going to the temple and they healed a lame man, the point is, even though Jesus had walk by that lame man many, many times in His life He didn't heal him, because it wasn't God's timing, healing take place when the person God has chosen to use meets the person to be healed at the correct time, because not only did Jesus walk by the man many times so had Peter and John, it was God's time to heal the man for His glory.
I've been healed many times by the Lord, almost always I didn't know I had been healed until some time passed and I realized I didn't have that problem any more, only once in 27 years has the Lord told me to lay hands on someone and they were supernaturally , instantaneously healed, and I doubted all the time I was praying for her, but she was healed even with my unbelief, ...because it was God's sovereign will and in His timing.
What I'm saying is, you have faith in your faith of speaking in tongues, but that is not faith in God and Him telling you what His will is, the reason I'm saying this is you and your son can continue on, Father loves you and won't stop you, but when you stand before Jesus for your rewards I don't want to see you or your son come away empty handed.
In His Love,
Gene
MichaelH
Inactive
That is how I read the Word. As it were directly for me and I just take God at his word. If he said by his stripes i am healed, then I don't try to rationalize that, or say that is just spiritual healing of some sort nobody understands. I don't get moved by circumstances but choose to believe the Word.
So, if there is any differences in what we believe it would only because I read the Word very literal.
I think you see that. If Jesus said those that believe on me SHALL, speak in new tongues and I hear others who speak in tongues and I believe on Jesus, then it's something I come short of the promise if I have yet obtained and it's time to seek God until God gets it sorted for me so I get understanding. I don't give up, any lack of me receiving is not on God's end, it's on my end.
Even the time I was super sick in prison, took my stand I got no better. It never occurred to me to think God had anything to do with it. I went to God and asked him what I was doing wrong, where had I missed it. It says i am the Healed Lord, Jesus redeemed me from the curse and the curse is operating in my life. Show me where I am off here.
It had all to to do with walking out of love toward one of my other Brothers in the Lord. Something that happened weeks ago. God said, Go tell your brother you love him. That was the answer, Love works faith, no love, then your faith will never work.
So I did something real stupid. I told God to send my Brother to me, and I will tell him.
I but you can guess how that worked out for me.
Blessings.
MichaelH
Inactive
Thank you for sharing that Gene. I never lay hands on the sick myself unless I have heard first. Jesus said, I only do what I hear my father say and what he saw. Your post makes a lot of sense with lots of revelation. I also never just speak to anyone even if I see them in error because the Lord knows who receives. I have to hear first.
correcting someone when they don't have ears to hear makes people upset. They have to be in a place to hear and God knows the heart. Same with Healing, He knows who will receive and tell us to go respond.
Tongues like Paul said about Prophecy is by faith. Paul said let them give prophecy according to the faith that is in them. Well, Prophecy you have to wait on God, it's just not something we can do when we want. I can't force God to speak a blessed thing.
Tongues though, Jesus said you shall speak in new tongues. That is something the Holy Spirit is there to help with.
Jesus also said you shall lay hands on the sick and they shall recover. James said is any sick among you let them call the elders as the Prayer of faith will save the sick and God shall rise them up.
Now you have laid hands on the sick by direction of the Lord with awesome results. I love to see people set free and the gift of Healing was right there, ready as the Lord gives direction as the Spirit wills. You obeyed.
See the difference here in operation................. Gifts of healing as the Lord directed, and BAM, amazing results.
Lay hands on the sick to recover because you believe and speak with new tongues. God shall rise them up.
Recover and rise up are not always instant but it's faith in the Word and the name of Jesus. Just simple instructions. Faith in the Word and the Name of Jesus will heal also, but it's not the same as when the power of the gifts are in manifestation.
Tongues is the same way, it's Help from the Holy Spirit to help us and edify us. I don't really think of faith to speak in tongues, I have been praying in tongues so long I just speak in tongues.
It's like the Word that framed the worlds, we don't really have to stand and believe God that the sun will be up the next day.
Was anyone else a believer when you were younger praying for you, I know it was not Grandma, and I also use to be in the occult. Just asking.
Great Revelation Gene, thank you for sharing that. I wish you would have shared that sooner.
Blessings.
Funny you should ask about that, one day I asked the Lord who was praying for my salvation since I was raised in a cult, one by one He paraded the people through my mind, it started with a man that I went through Boy Scouts and Explorer Scouts with, there was a man that owned a service station who I worked for when I was 16, different people that came into my life, the one that stands out the most was a girl that just knocked me off my feet when I was 18, fell in love with her immediately, asked her to marry me, a pagan, of course she refused, now I understand why, ...can't wait to get to Heaven to thank them.
It's obvious you believe what you believe, so I won't interfere in you life any more, just please remember that faith is a gift and not everyone has it, by now I think you can see I have the gift of faith, but don't speak in tongues (personally if it was not the Tahitian language I'm not interested, and the other side of the coin is I'm so blessed by Father I don't see where I need it), so please use some discernment in who you tell speaking in tongues is for, as you have quoted Mark 16 many times you must remember that Jesus was talking to the 11 apostles and since you take the Bible literally, word for word, then you have to consider there we 120 in the upper room, but only 16 different languages spoken and then Peter clearly makes a reference to the 12 apostles as being the ones speaking in tongues, so since you take the Word literally then you must conclude that not all of the 120 spoke in tongues, just like not everyone speaks in tongues in the Body of Christ whether it's not a gift the Holy Spirit wants them to have or the reason being they don't want it themselves, bro, seriously you need to stop telling people speaking in tongues is for them, that is eliminating the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives and causing them to miss out on what the Spirit has planned for them.
Blessings,
Gene
It's obvious you believe what you believe, so I won't interfere in you life any more, just please remember that faith is a gift and not everyone has it, by now I think you can see I have the gift of faith, but don't speak in tongues (personally if it was not the Tahitian language I'm not interested, and the other side of the coin is I'm so blessed by Father I don't see where I need it), so please use some discernment in who you tell speaking in tongues is for, as you have quoted Mark 16 many times you must remember that Jesus was talking to the 11 apostles and since you take the Bible literally, word for word, then you have to consider there we 120 in the upper room, but only 16 different languages spoken and then Peter clearly makes a reference to the 12 apostles as being the ones speaking in tongues, so since you take the Word literally then you must conclude that not all of the 120 spoke in tongues, just like not everyone speaks in tongues in the Body of Christ whether it's not a gift the Holy Spirit wants them to have or the reason being they don't want it themselves, bro, seriously you need to stop telling people speaking in tongues is for them, that is eliminating the work of the Holy Spirit in their lives and causing them to miss out on what the Spirit has planned for them.
Blessings,
Gene