The 144,000 saved..is it referring to...

[Major]

Okay Major, thanks for the clarification.

I have always had trouble with the the idea of men being classed as 'virgins' in a physical sense.....we lack certain physical attributes.
So, I always understand 'male virgin' in a non physical sense......simply......... 'innocence'. Is this not what the Scriptures say?
Thanks to our being washed clean with the blood of the lamb, are we not now innocent of all wrong doing?
However, Rev 14:4 does use the word 'virgin in connection with men. Okay, so looking at some of what Thayer's dictionary says of the word,
:
"2) a man who has abstained from all uncleanness and whoredom attendant on idolatry, and so has kept his chastity"

If that is more or less what the original recipients of John's writing would have understood, then so ought we.

I'm asking as it were, why, if sexual intercourse /desire was the sole criteria would they not simply have been called eunuchs?
Mat 19:12 For there are eunuchs who have been so from birth, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Let the one who is able to receive this receive it."

What might be understood by 'eunuch'?

1c) one naturally incapacitated
1c1) for marriage
1c2) begetting children
1d) one who voluntarily abstains from marriage

It seems that a narrow reading of Rev 14 would really mean eunuchs, but speaking in terms of virginity seems most likely to embrace a much wider....a sort of global purity that can only be obtained through the blood of Christ.
So, we might say that a Eunuch's righteousness comes by works, whereas a male virgin's righteousness is by the grace of God.
And that, you and I have thanks to the shed blood of Christ.
Well that is as I see it.

I am always blessed by your in depth thought and knowledge and this is another one of those times.

The conversation over the word "Virgin" and whether it is symbolic or literal reminds me of the original introduction of the 144K in chapter 7. Some say they are literal and some same symbolic. If they are not literal I have to wonder why God went to so much trouble to specifically tell us that there will be 12K from each tribe and then even tells us the names of each tribe. That seems like a lot of information just to be symbolic.

Same with the word "virgin". If it is to be eunuch's then why not just use that word. It was well know then, probably more then that now. So then why specifically use the word virgin unless for a reason. I for one believe that the word virgin of the AV (Greek parthenoi) is the correct literal translation: however the connotation can be misleading. There is no intent to advocate celibacy over against marriage (Heb. 13:4), but only to emphasize their chastity in life as virgins are.

As for spiritual adultery, in the Old. Test. idolatry was used in conjuction with spiritual fornication. The 144K will also have kept themselves from the worship of the Beast during the Tribulation. For that reason the comment of..............
"These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins" is probably referring to chastity in both the literal and spiritual sense.

Now we must ask why would that be so important? IMO, these men will be running for their lives everyday depending on others for food and water and such. God knowing how hard it is going to be for them decided that they did not need the added responsibility and worry over a wife while running for their lives as they preach the gospel. But that is just me.

 

[Waggles]

So yes I believe dispensationalism is fleshly and carnal and doesn't see that the new covenant is spiritual in Christ. And Zionism pushes this lie of carnality.

Both God and history prove you wrong - 1917; 1948; 1967; and most probably again in 2017.
When Ben Gurion declared modern Israel to be an independent nation of self government in May 1948 this fulfilled numerous prophecies
concerning this event. It is Jesus' intention for history that Israel (10 tribes/ Ephraim) should be reunited with Judah (2 tribes) [Levi is dispersed in
both sets]. The 10 tribes of Israel were taken away to become the modern nations of Europe and the U.S.A. [Manasseh brother to Ephraim].
This removal of Israel allows for the promises of salvation that you cite to be fulfilled in Israel, whilst in history Judah again as previously in Babylon pays the price for betrayal and her unbelief.
However, it is important to remember that the promises of God are irrevocable and Jesus would always uphold the testimony of his word;
his promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Even Christians are dependent on the grace and mercy of God who is true and never changes.
Otherwise we also would be abandoned and thrown away for another dispensation given the apostasy and wickedness of the rise of Rome
and Catholicism. Even today much of what passes for "christianity" is wanton apostasy and false gospels.
Should not Jesus burn up this plethora denominations and cults that deny the Apostolic gospel of the scriptures.
And yet the tares are allowed to grow with the wheat!!

Jesus would never abandon Judah no matter how much they are fallen and given to blindness. The geographical location of modern nation of
Israel serves the Lord's purpose in how the nations are aligned and those who bless Israel and those who curse Israel.
Little tiny Israel (I believe 100 miles x 40 miles) a sliver of land - blue and while - amidst a sea of Red, Black, White and Green.
The colours of the four horses of Revelation chapter 6, and coincidentally the same colours of most of the surrounding Islamic nations.

http://www.talkjesus.com/threads/10-prophecies-fulfilled-in-1948.7/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_flag#/media/File:Flag_of_Palestine.svg

 

[calvin]

I am always blessed by your in depth thought and knowledge and this is another one of those times.

The conversation over the word "Virgin" and whether it is symbolic or literal reminds me of the original introduction of the 144K in chapter 7. Some say they are literal and some same symbolic. If they are not literal I have to wonder why God went to so much trouble to specifically tell us that there will be 12K from each tribe and then even tells us the names of each tribe. That seems like a lot of information just to be symbolic.

Same with the word "virgin". If it is to be eunuch's then why not just use that word. It was well know then, probably more then that now. So then why specifically use the word virgin unless for a reason. I for one believe that the word virgin of the AV (Greek parthenoi) is the correct literal translation: however the connotation can be misleading. There is no intent to advocate celibacy over against marriage (Heb. 13:4), but only to emphasize their chastity in life as virgins are.

As for spiritual adultery, in the Old. Test. idolatry was used in conjuction with spiritual fornication. The 144K will also have kept themselves from the worship of the Beast during the Tribulation. For that reason the comment of..............
"These are they which were not defiled with women, for they are virgins" is probably referring to chastity in both the literal and spiritual sense.

Now we must ask why would that be so important? IMO, these men will be running for their lives everyday depending on others for food and water and such. God knowing how hard it is going to be for them decided that they did not need the added responsibility and worry over a wife while running for their lives as they preach the gospel. But that is just me.

Well who Knows?
As for why the exact number and why the naming of each tribe?
Well I don't think anyone can say authoritatively, however it seems in the light of inference from other scriptures that the number 12 and multiples there of denote completeness.....of Israel at least.
Why did Jacob only have 12 sons? Why did he have as many as 12 sons? We can't say, but we can say that with the coming into being of the twelfth son, the number was complete. and we can further say with the protection of Joseph, that not only was he specifically marked out for greater things, but that all 12 were important hence the 12 tribes of Israel.
Even with the apparent extermination of the tribe of Benjamin over the rape/murder issue, to cat a long story short,.........
Jdg 21:17. And they said, "There must be an inheritance for the survivors of Benjamin, that a tribe not be blotted out from Israel.
Therefore it would appear that not a tribe would be lost hence the twelve tribes listed in Revelation. Furthermore it seems that the tribe of Benjamin was no longer pure, but mixed with the bloodlines of the people of Shiloh and others.
Perhaps that in part could be why the reference to the purity as of virgins.
So to summarise, The completeness of the 12 tribes is realized, and Purity is restored......that is the message of the 144k.

Major blessings to you and yours at this John 3:16 season.

 

[Major]

Well who Knows?
As for why the exact number and why the naming of each tribe?
Well I don't think anyone can say authoritatively, however it seems in the light of inference from other scriptures that the number 12 and multiples there of denote completeness.....of Israel at least.
Why did Jacob only have 12 sons? Why did he have as many as 12 sons? We can't say, but we can say that with the coming into being of the twelfth son, the number was complete. and we can further say with the protection of Joseph, that not only was he specifically marked out for greater things, but that all 12 were important hence the 12 tribes of Israel.
Even with the apparent extermination of the tribe of Benjamin over the rape/murder issue, to cat a long story short,.........
Jdg 21:17. And they said, "There must be an inheritance for the survivors of Benjamin, that a tribe not be blotted out from Israel.
Therefore it would appear that not a tribe would be lost hence the twelve tribes listed in Revelation. Furthermore it seems that the tribe of Benjamin was no longer pure, but mixed with the bloodlines of the people of Shiloh and others.
Perhaps that in part could be why the reference to the purity as of virgins.
So to summarise, The completeness of the 12 tribes is realized, and Purity is restored......that is the message of the 144k.

Major blessings to you and yours at this John 3:16 season.

And the same to you my brother. I always grow when talking with you. Keep up the good work!

 

[Coop]

Both God and history prove you wrong - 1917; 1948; 1967; and most probably again in 2017.
When Ben Gurion declared modern Israel to be an independent nation of self government in May 1948 this fulfilled numerous prophecies
concerning this event. It is Jesus' intention for history that Israel (10 tribes/ Ephraim) should be reunited with Judah (2 tribes) [Levi is dispersed in
both sets]. The 10 tribes of Israel were taken away to become the modern nations of Europe and the U.S.A. [Manasseh brother to Ephraim].
This removal of Israel allows for the promises of salvation that you cite to be fulfilled in Israel, whilst in history Judah again as previously in Babylon pays the price for betrayal and her unbelief.
However, it is important to remember that the promises of God are irrevocable and Jesus would always uphold the testimony of his word;
his promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Even Christians are dependent on the grace and mercy of God who is true and never changes.
Otherwise we also would be abandoned and thrown away for another dispensation given the apostasy and wickedness of the rise of Rome
and Catholicism. Even today much of what passes for "christianity" is wanton apostasy and false gospels.
Should not Jesus burn up this plethora denominations and cults that deny the Apostolic gospel of the scriptures.
And yet the tares are allowed to grow with the wheat!!

Jesus would never abandon Judah no matter how much they are fallen and given to blindness. The geographical location of modern nation of
Israel serves the Lord's purpose in how the nations are aligned and those who bless Israel and those who curse Israel.
Little tiny Israel (I believe 100 miles x 40 miles) a sliver of land - blue and while - amidst a sea of Red, Black, White and Green.
The colours of the four horses of Revelation chapter 6, and coincidentally the same colours of most of the surrounding Islamic nations.

http://www.talkjesus.com/threads/10-prophecies-fulfilled-in-1948.7/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_flag#/media/File:Flag_of_Palestine.svg

God proves me rt by His Word. And history as well. It is you and others on here that have a problem believing Gods Word. Those dates show nothing but wars and occupation. "For he is NOT a Jew who is one outwardly, NOR is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; BUT he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit.. Romans 2:28-29. "For they are NOT all Israel who are OF Israel, NOR are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham;.. those who are the children of the flesh, these are NOT the children of God; but the children of the promise are counted as the seed. Romans 9:6-8. Now who are the children of promise?? "Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say,"And to seeds," as of many, but as of ONE, "And to your SEED," WHO IS CHRIST. Galatians 3:16. "For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ... There is neither Jew nor Greek... For you are all ONE in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christs, then you are Abrahams seed, and heirs according to the promise. Galatians 3: 26-29. Gods people look for a heavenly Jerusalem, which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Hebrews 11: 10. The natural man cannot receive those truths. Much like the election of God, but rather take upon the mark of the beast and spread its image across the world. Those scriptures are so clear to the believer, and should bring comfort. To the natural man it brings anger! So they Diefy a people and a physical land that means nothing apart from Christ Jesus. So that land today occupied by, for the most part Christ deniers, is not of God, but of antichrist. They bear their god Remphan on their flag, the star of Moloch. Thanx in part to the Rothchilds. And also of course under the heading of that beast papal Rome. With all the intermingling over generations, dispensationalists assume that the true physical descendant Hebrews are Anglo Saxon lol! Your myth of the European colonization of the world as truth, is actually revised history. Thanx to the papist, Francisco Ribera, a Jesuit, who brought in futurism. And Darby and Scofield reference bible gave way to Hal Lindsey's lies and so on and so on. I agree we are in a great apostasy, thanx in due part to this teaching which has caused serial wars in the Middle East based on lies. The crusaders (papal Rome) and Muhammad followers are still at war. And uses these lies to push it. The Lord Jesus is all that matters and will judge both of these Babylonian false religions at His coming. Gods Israel are those in Christ. This is truth and this is what scripture has always taught

 

[Complete]

Hello there,

We must all, with all our 'learning', with all our diverse 'understanding', acknowledge, that we are all but sinners saved by grace: and rejoice in the salvation which is so freely given to us in Christ Jesus, through His one, all-sufficient sacrifice on our behalf.

We must lay our differences before Him, and pray that His will be done, and His Name be glorified. For we are but dust.

Praise His Name!

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified,
Saviour, Lord and Head.

Chris

 

[Coop]

Hello there,

We must all, with all our 'learning', with all our diverse 'understanding', acknowledge, that we are all but sinners saved by grace: and rejoice in the salvation which is so freely given to us in Christ Jesus, through His one, all-sufficient sacrifice on our behalf.

We must lay our differences before Him, and pray that His will be done, and His Name be glorified. For we are but dust.

Praise His Name!

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified,
Saviour, Lord and Head.

Chris

I agree Complete. We are all but dust. And may His will always be done. Glory and Honor be to Christ Jesus Alone

 

[calvin]

Hello there,

We must all, with all our 'learning', with all our diverse 'understanding', acknowledge, that we are all but sinners saved by grace: and rejoice in the salvation which is so freely given to us in Christ Jesus, through His one, all-sufficient sacrifice on our behalf.

We must lay our differences before Him, and pray that His will be done, and His Name be glorified. For we are but dust.

Praise His Name!

In Christ Jesus
Our risen and glorified,
Saviour, Lord and Head.

Chris

Well said.