The "Are you a good person" quiz

[Godspell]

That's because you don't understand sin then. I'm sure Adam and Eve didn't think eating a fruit would cause so many problems but as we can see even a 'tiny' sin ended up leading to the murder of Abel by his own brother. Sin is sin and although you may think a 'tiny' sin is not something worth eternal punishment you have to take into consideration that you have been corrupted and once that seed of sin is planted it only gets worse. It goes a lot deeper than what you think. When you have defied God you have in effect defied what is good for what is evil. You have in effect already killed yourself at the first 'tiny' sin because we know the horrid things sin leads to and that God said sin leads to death. What is stopping a sinner from eventually getting worse if they can't even follow God who is good on a tiny thing? I hope you understand what I'm trying to say.

You might be surprised that I agree with you 100%. The only problem I have is in the way you are trying to frame this situation. It is not a courtroom problem, this is what they tried to propose in the RCC and it eventually led them to define an upper stage of hell called limbo for the fate of unbaptized infants and moral pagans. In recent times they have largely abandoned that theory because of aborted Catholic children.

See, in a court room, if you steal a pen, the "just" punishment would be to return the pen and pay some fine or penalty proportional to the value of the pen, which would not be very much. No reasonable person is going to accept that a fair punishment for the crime is life in prison. In atheist China, the government routinely executes individuals for relatively minor crimes: drug dealing, thievery etc. Most Christians look at that system as cruel because of the rule of law which dictates the punishment must fit the crime. This dictate comes from the Bible's provisions "An eye for an eye" within the Mosaic law. What the Mosaic law does not say is, "Two eyes, an arm and a leg for an eye." Proper justice promotes equitable punishment proportional to a crime.

What you are describing, is what I call the medical perspective. The punishment for choosing not to take your medication is the full force of whatever affliction you are dealing with. This punishment, however, is not so much "punitive" as it is "consequential". Its not so much that your actions are engendering the wrath of a moody God, its that you are deliberately turning yourself against His will and therefore experiencing His love as wrath.

This "medical" explanation is how we ultimately are able to show people how sin merits eternal punishment. Its not really God who is even punishing the person, the person is punishing themselves by continuing in arrogance and self-love when the medicine (the New Covenant) is put right within their reach, if they would only humble themselves and take it.

While stealing one penny in the judicial system is indeed "no big deal", contracting just a single E Bola virus is all it takes to give you the disease.

 

[God is Love]

You might be surprised that I agree with you 100%. The only problem I have is in the way you are trying to frame this situation. It is not a courtroom problem, this is what they tried to propose in the RCC and it eventually led them to define an upper stage of hell called limbo for the fate of unbaptized infants and moral pagans. In recent times they have largely abandoned that theory because of aborted Catholic children.

See, in a court room, if you steal a pen, the "just" punishment would be to return the pen and pay some fine or penalty proportional to the value of the pen, which would not be very much. No reasonable person is going to accept that a fair punishment for the crime is life in prison. In atheist China, the government routinely executes individuals for relatively minor crimes: drug dealing, thievery etc. Most Christians look at that system as cruel because of the rule of law which dictates the punishment must fit the crime. This dictate comes from the Bible's provisions "An eye for an eye" within the Mosaic law. What the Mosaic law does not say is, "Two eyes, an arm and a leg for an eye." Proper justice promotes equitable punishment proportional to a crime.

What you are describing, is what I call the medical perspective. The punishment for choosing not to take your medication is the full force of whatever affliction you are dealing with. This punishment, however, is not so much "punitive" as it is "consequential". Its not so much that your actions are engendering the wrath of a moody God, its that you are deliberately turning yourself against His will and therefore experiencing His love as wrath.

This "medical" explanation is how we ultimately are able to show people how sin merits eternal punishment. Its not really God who is even punishing the person, the person is punishing themselves by continuing in arrogance and self-love when the medicine (the New Covenant) is put right within their reach, if they would only humble themselves and take it.

While stealing one penny in the judicial system is indeed "no big deal", contracting just a single E Bola virus is all it takes to give you the disease.

That is a very interesting perspective and I appreciate you explaining it to me. Do you happen to have scripture regarding the medical explanation?

 

[Godspell]

That is a very interesting perspective and I appreciate you explaining it to me. Do you happen to have scripture regarding the medical explanation?

I'll try checking through scripture. Generally though, it is useful for particularly understanding God as both unchanging and the opposite of sin. Both are pretty uncontroversial dogmas. The medical analogy is just a perspective that holds those items constant. The true nature of God is incomprehensible so any analogy will be limited in its ability to explain, even in the Bible. Words can only describe so much.

 

[calvin]

Good is one thing. Murderer is another.

And that relates to my post #34 exactly how?

 

[calvin]

We can have good in us though. God is the source of goodness, but it can reflect from us and eminate in us if we have the Spirit in us.

My problem with it is that it doesn't actually appeal to justice. It tries to, because most people think well, I'm probably going to heaven because I stay away from the major sins. So they're trying (ineffectively) to convict us of those. Problem is I am simply never going to believe that stealing a paper clip warrants external torment in hell.

Maybe it doesn't..maybe it does. Stealing a paper clip is the product of a heart that is not right with God.
That might sound a bit harsh, but consider the humble paper clip, why would I as your employer provide paper clips by the box full?
I supply them so that you can work more effectively for example. If you find that you could use a few at home, but have no need of a box full then I am happy for you to take some to fill your needs. (I'm a nice guy) But if you took some/one just for the sake of putting one over ol' calvin, what would that say about your heart?

I was reading the book 23 minutes in hell today and it struck me that the author uses practically identical apologise to defend hell. I'm sure both him and others have good intention but honestly I don't feel like they really give individuals who question hell the proper attention and they're not justifying it well. I personally hear of more people loosing their faith because of the doctrines about it.

If by hell we are talking about the final estate of those who are unsaved, then I agree that there is much bad teaching abroad. I think hell will be a place of our own making and our own choosing.
Those who reject Christ, reject what He has on offer, what heaven has to offer; where else would such people best be placed?

 

[calvin]

But then again,
Jas 2:10. For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it.
Jas 2:11. For he who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." If you do not commit adultery but do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
So stealing a paper clip is stealing, just the same.
But again it comes down to heart attitude I think.

 

[HisManySongs]

Joy - absolutely.
But I am not calling anyone a murderer who hasn't physically murdered someone.

I agree that form of evangelism isn't the best to use.

I like how the Celtic Christians do it. They get to know a person and allow them to learn and make their own decision.

 

[Major]

Maybe it doesn't..maybe it does. Stealing a paper clip is the product of a heart that is not right with God.
That might sound a bit harsh, but consider the humble paper clip, why would I as your employer provide paper clips by the box full?
I supply them so that you can work more effectively for example. If you find that you could use a few at home, but have no need of a box full then I am happy for you to take some to fill your needs. (I'm a nice guy) But if you took some/one just for the sake of putting one over ol' calvin, what would that say about your heart?
If by hell we are talking about the final estate of those who are unsaved, then I agree that there is much bad teaching abroad. I think hell will be a place of our own making and our own choosing.
Those who reject Christ, reject what He has on offer, what heaven has to offer; where else would such people best be placed?

Amen brother!

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

And that relates to my post #34 exactly how?

By pointing out all the things your post #34 DOESN'T relate to regarding the original post. Namely the hyperbole, the dishonesty of the test (did you actually take it? Did you try answering "no" to anything to see what the test does to you?) and, as has been pointed out by others here, the ineffectiveness of its heavy-handed evangelical style.

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

I agree that form of evangelism isn't the best to use.

I like how the Celtic Christians do it. They get to know a person and allow them to learn and make their own decision.

I like that as well. I agree that human beings have universal traits but I have never been a fan of the blanket condemnation or judgement. I think you really need to know a person.

 

[calvin]

.

 

[calvin]

By pointing out all the things your post #34 DOESN'T relate to regarding the original post. Namely the hyperbole, the dishonesty of the test (did you actually take it? Did you try answering "no" to anything to see what the test does to you?) and, as has been pointed out by others here, the ineffectiveness of its heavy-handed evangelical style.

OK

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

I don't find this type of evangelizing to have any worth. Honestly, even talking on a street corner generally does nothing for people. How often has a complete stranger made you completely change your life? I would say it doesn't happen often. If that doesn't happen often then I'd say a quiz calling you a murderer and liar would be even less effective, possibly to the point of being damaging.

I never got a chance to properly respond to this last night (I had only my cell phone).
The street corner approach - I agree. I sometimes think, OK, if your life is so good and complete, what are you standing outside on a street corner for? This is what I mean about Christianity by example. I'm likely to be a lot more inspired by a Christian who is volunteering in a homeless shelter or soup kitchen than annoying passersby outside with a shouted acclamation.

 

[Huntingteckel]

I never got a chance to properly respond to this last night (I had only my cell phone).
The street corner approach - I agree. I sometimes think, OK, if your life is so good and complete, what are you standing outside on a street corner for? This is what I mean about Christianity by example. I'm likely to be a lot more inspired by a Christian who is volunteering in a homeless shelter or soup kitchen than annoying passersby outside with a shouted acclamation.

I think that they are trying to make other people's lives complete. I don't think that's a very good way to go about it though. I'd say that volunteering in a homeless shelter would probably be better because you could build personal relationships with the people and have a better chance of them taking what you say seriously.

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

I think that they are trying to make other people's lives complete. I don't think that's a very good way to go about it though. I'd say that volunteering in a homeless shelter would probably be better because you could build personal relationships with the people and have a better chance of them taking what you say seriously.

I like to think it's also what Jesus would do.

 

[Godspell]

Maybe it doesn't..maybe it does. Stealing a paper clip is the product of a heart that is not right with God.
That might sound a bit harsh, but consider the humble paper clip, why would I as your employer provide paper clips by the box full?
I supply them so that you can work more effectively for example. If you find that you could use a few at home, but have no need of a box full then I am happy for you to take some to fill your needs. (I'm a nice guy) But if you took some/one just for the sake of putting one over ol' calvin, what would that say about your heart?
If by hell we are talking about the final estate of those who are unsaved, then I agree that there is much bad teaching abroad. I think hell will be a place of our own making and our own choosing.
Those who reject Christ, reject what He has on offer, what heaven has to offer; where else would such people best be placed?

Calvin, I agree with you, but what will the unbeliever understand better?

He who steals a paper clip is guilty of murder and deserves to roast in hell for all eternity?

Or

He who is infected with just a single virus is infected with its whole disease?

The former offends our sense of justice, the latter gives us a sense of understanding of how seeds of sin of sin are sown.

 

[Krysta]

How will they know what you are preaching when you don't say anything? Btw I like that quote and have heard it before, God gave us a voice for a reason though

You do realize you can get your point across much more respectfully without being snarky and sarcastic and using smiley faces as a tool to belittle others. God calls us to love others and put others as higher than ourselves....

 

[God is Love]

You do realize you can get your point across much more respectfully without being snarky and sarcastic and using smiley faces as a tool to belittle others. God calls us to love others and put others as higher than ourselves....

I'm sorry but do you really think personally attacking me because of my opinion is appropriate or loving?

 

[PeaceLikeaRiver]

I'm sorry but do you really think personally attacking me because of my opinion is appropriate or loving?

Probably not a good idea to say things like "That's because you don't understand sin then." You've simply got a disagreement. I'm sure Godspell knows what sin is all about.

 

[God is Love]

Probably not a good idea to say things like "That's because you don't understand sin then." You've simply got a disagreement. I'm sure Godspell knows what sin is all about.

I'm allowed to say what I believe. Whether or not you want to take everything someone says as a hate speech when you disagree with them is up to you.