The Book Of ROMANS.....A Systematic Teaching

crossnote said:
Papa Smurf, by 'any other way', I take it you mean Through the death of Christ?
Otherwise I don't see 'justice being served regardless of the degree or duration of punishment.
When it comes to sin, it is against God's Holiness and the only One and/or thing that will satisfy God's Justice is the Sacrifice of His Son....IMHO.
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Hello crossnote, what I was actually referring to there was that our "works" are the final, determining factor in God's judgement of us, both for the saint on the one hand (in respect to the rewards that He will give to us for our "works of righteousness", or sadly, the lack of any rewards for some of us (see 1 Corinthians 3 below ) or, on the flipside, that the works of the reprobate in this life will determine the scope/extent of God's judgment against them in eternity.

To use an analogy about human "justice", the punishment that a judge imposes for a. jaywalking or running a stop sign is different than the punishment that he/she would impose for b. kidnapping or murder. If a judge imposed the very same penalty for both a & b above, justice would not be served, would it?

So I believe that it will also be at the Judgements at the end of this age, as both levels/types of reward (for the saints) AND levels/types of punishment (for the reprobate) will be meted out according to what each of us has done in this life (or failed to do). Granted, more is spelled out directly for us in the Bible concerning rewards for the saints, but much is also given, at least indirectly, concerning the extent of God's judgment for each of the reprobate. Take a look at Major's post #97 (if you have not done so already) as he has made a number of important, Scriptural points about this in that post.

Blessings to you in Christ!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - below is one of the passages that speaks of the Bema Seat Judgment of the saints' works, the quality (and perhaps quantity) of works that we performed in this life, or in the case of some, the lack thereof.

The eternal destination of all, be it Heaven or Hell, is determined at the end of each of our lives here, ~prior~ to the Lord sitting in judgement of us/of our works at either the Bema Seat (saint) or the Great White Throne (reprobate). The kind and number of rewards, or the lack thereof (Bema Seat/saint), and the pronouncement and scope of His judgment/condemnation (Great White Throne/reprobate) are things that will be decided/done after we die (as best as I have come to understand all of this anyway ;)).

1 Corinthians 3​
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.​
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.​
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,​
13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work.​
14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.​
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.​
​
 
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Papa Smurf said:
Hello crossnote, what I was actually referring to there was that our "works" are the final, determining factor in God's judgement of us, both for the saint on the one hand (in respect to the rewards that He will give to us for our "works of righteousness", or sadly, the lack of any rewards for some of us (see 1 Corinthians 3 below ) or, on the flipside, that the works of the reprobate in this life will determine the scope/extent of God's judgment against them in eternity.

To use an analogy about human "justice", the punishment that a judge imposes for a. jaywalking or running a stop sign is different than the punishment that he/she would impose for b. kidnapping or murder. If a judge imposed the very same penalty for both a & b above, justice would not be served, would it?

So I believe that it will also be at the Judgements at the end of this age, as both levels/types of reward (for the saints) AND levels/types of punishment (for the reprobate) will be meted out according to what each of us has done in this life (or failed to do). Granted, more is spelled out directly for us in the Bible concerning rewards for the saints, but much is also given, at least indirectly, concerning the extent of God's judgment for each of the reprobate. Take a look at Major's post #97 (if you have not done so already) as he has made a number of important, Scriptural points about this in that post.

Blessings to you in Christ!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - below is one of the passages that speaks of the Bema Seat Judgment of the saints' works, the quality (and perhaps quantity) of works that we performed in this life, or in the case of some, the lack thereof.

The eternal destination of all, be it Heaven or Hell, is determined at the end of each of our lives here, ~prior~ to the Lord sitting in judgement of us/of our works at either the Bema Seat (saint) or the Great White Throne (reprobate). The kind and number of rewards, or the lack thereof (Bema Seat/saint), and the pronouncement and scope of His judgment/condemnation (Great White Throne/reprobate) are things that will be decided/done after we die (as best as I have come to understand all of this anyway ;)).

1 Corinthians 3​
10 According to the grace of God which was given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building on it. But each man must be careful how he builds on it.​
11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.​
12 Now if any man builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,​
13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man’s work.​
14 If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.​
15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.​
​
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Actually, I probably should had directed my point at Major's (#97). You seem to be zeroing in on the Bema Seat of Christ whereas I was zeroing in on the judgment of unbelievers. (Major spoke of "varying degrees of punishment in the Lake of Fire.") That's why I went in that direction. 🧭
 
crossnote said:
I understand God's righteousness as absolute as He is Holy and changes not.
Our righteousness (unless imputed) is a 'righteousness' relative to each other and is faulty apart from the imputed righteousness of Christ.
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I agree 100%. God's character never changes, however His methods do!
 
Papa Smurf said:
Finally, I also believe that passages like this (Romans 2:12-16) help us understand why preborn babies, infants, toddlers etc., all who die as such, that is, will end up living out eternity in God's presence (even though they never came to saving faith in Him).

I say this because of what the Bible teaches us in places like Romans 2:12-16, that God's final judgment and condemnation of unbelievers will be based upon what they both know and understand of the "law" (not what they do NOT know and/or understand), even if the only "law" that they possess (know/understand) is the law that was written in their hearts by God from birth.

Preborn babies/infants/toddlers are incapable of knowing and understanding the "law", even the basic one that is written upon their hearts, therefore, I do not believe that there is a basis for God to judge and condemn them to Hell.

Some believe/teach that God will judge and condemn these little ones (who die) on the basis of their fallen "nature" alone (since there is no other basis for it in their case), but the Bible never tells us that God will use that (our "nature") as the basis for His judgment (of anyone), does it?

As above, I would appreciate knowing your thoughts about this topic too.

God bless you :)

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - I'm sure that the RCC's "Limbo" was the result of such reasoning, but I believe it to be faulty reasoning, even though I understand why they went that way. I'm also glad to see that the idea/doctrine of "Limbo" seems to be passing away from RC thought, as it is rarely, if ever, spoken of by the RCC anymore.
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I have taught that very same thing for all of my life my dear brother.

There is something deep inside of all humans that screams against this conclusion of innocent babies being condemned to hell on the basis of the Calvinist idea of Election. Our common sense and brain says..... It seems so unjust that God would send innocent babies to Hell to be tormented forever without giving them an opportunity to trust in Jesus. It’s just not fair.

Now, A common by-product of our sinful nature is that we humans say we want fairness, but really we want unfairness in our favor.
We say we want mercy but what we are really saying is that we DO NOTT WANT WHAT WE DESERVE and call that fairness!

Now if we think hard about this we will come to the logical conclusion that there is an implicit argument built in here by Satan.......

There’s an implicit extra argument at the end of the logical argument. It goes like this:
1. But if God were good he wouldn’t send babies to hell.
2. Therefore, if babies go to hell, God isn’t good.

I hate to be long winded, but unfortunately that is how I operate. I really do not know short answers.

The Calvinist theology right here would say that if we have our definition of “good” straight, we would understand that “justice” is wrapped up in it. God is the source and definition of both goodness and justice. If we have justice straight, we would understand that sending babies to hell is exactly just. It’s exactly what babies deserve because they are sinful. If they don’t deserve it, then babies aren’t inherently sinful and you have a beef with 2,000 years of orthodox anthropology.

But then the door opens in religion and theology and IN COMES THE MERCY OF GOD!
A curious, glorious, mysterious, and awe-inspiring fact is that God is gracious beyond anything we can imagine. He often treats us detestable humans far better than we deserve. His image in us seems worth redeeming from its disfigured and tarnished state. But He gets to decide when to dispense that glorious grace............Glory to God! This means we get what we do not deserve instead of what we do deserve!

So then, it all comes down to ..........
“Every person is responsible for responding to the revelation that they have been given with an appropriate faith in the revealer.”

If you have nothing but creation to testify of a creator, you are responsible for worshiping that creator faithfully.
This is more applicable to the man in deepest darkest Africa, and less to the infant, BECAUSE THE INFANT HAS NO CONCEPT OF CREATION OR A CREATOR TO COMAPARE TO!!!!

So then where do the infants go who die.........HEAVEN by the glorious grace of the God who created them.
Where does the infidel in the lost part of earth who has never heard the gospel go..........HELL.
BUT, his punishment will not be the same that is applied to those who have heard and rejected God.
 
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By the way..............to those following along but NOT posting, THIS is what is called effective interactive Bible study!

The teacher quotes a Bible Scripture and then gives what he believes that Scriptures is saying. Then those reading or listening are invited to make positive, civil comments and or ask questions from the prompting of the Holy Spirit.

As you can see, at times questions wander off a little because someone has a concern that they feel the need to be discussed.

This my dear friends is how we learn, grow and become educated in the Word of God. The key to all of this is of course CIVILITY AND CHRISTIAN ATTITUDE. We are seeing that unfold in front of us and I give all the glory to God for it!!!!!!!

***Again, I say that if you have a concern that you think is too private to ask openly on the book of Romans- please feel free to PM me***!
 
Papa Smurf said:
Hello Major and crossnote, this is what I was waiting for, and Major did a great job of explaining it all for us :)

While the eternal destination of us all will be decided on the basis of a person's response (positive or negative) to the Gospel, it seems to me that it is our works that will further determine the rewards (or the lack thereof) that will be given to each saint at the Bema Seat Judgment, as well the extent of judgment/condemnation that God will levy against the individual reprobate at the Great White Throne Judgement.

Also, I don't believe that God's justice can truly be satisfied in any other way (for example, Hitler, Stalin, and others who chose to commit such horrible/sinful acts/atrocities, against both God and their fellow man, during their lives here ~must~ receive a harsher judgment than most .. cf Matthew 7:22-23, or I do not believe "justice" would truly be served).

Thoughts on that?

Thanks :)

--Papa Smurf
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I agree..........especially the part about Major doing a wonderful job!:):):):)


ps........Since there are some who just have to say sarcastic comments, I have to say that I was just being silly!
I am only doing here what I did in my church, no more and no less!
 
Romans 3:2...........
"Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God."

Paul is beginning to ask questions that he perceives will come from an opponent from what he has said in chapter #2.

If you will recall, it was there that he wrote that individual Jewish people will stand before God's judgment for their sins.

WHY? ........Because even though the people of Israel had been given the law, and even if they have been circumcised each of the Jews—individually—have broken God's law, just as every Gentile has also sinned.

Of course, that raises the logical question in the previous verse:
"What's the point, then, of being a Jew? Is there any advantage? Does it matter that they are circumcised?"

The answer is YES!

"MUCH EVERY WAY" = There is "much advantage in every way."(vs.#2).

God's chosen people benefit in many ways, starting with this one:......
#1. They were entrusted with the "oracles of God."
In other words, the Jewish people were given the enormous privilege of receiving and handing down the very words of God to all people.

Paul's point in Romans 2 was not that belonging to Israel was of no value at all. His point was simply that Jewishness, itself, would not keep any person from answering to God's judgment for his or her sin. Paul will list more of the benefits that come with being of the Jewish people in Romans 9:1–5.

The idea that being a Jew would excuse you of your sin is the same as thinking YOUR sin today will be excused because YOUR Father is a church deacon!

Now, I know that there is a really big movement in churchdom today from men who are saying that there is NO distinction between Jewism in the Old Test. and the Church in the New Test.

May I say to you in all Christian love, that is called Replacement Theology and it is FALSE, A LIE and the day your pastor begins to preach it to your church........VOTE HIM OUT!

The Bible says clearly that God is not finished with Israel! The very 1st thing I test a Preach/Pastor on is this point! Now there are several promises that God made to Israel that have not taken place. That in no way should lead anyone to think that the Church has taken over for Israel. Those promises WILL BE FULFILLED IN GOD"S TIME!

In other words, what I am saying is that Israel IS NOT a shadow/picture fulfilled and absorbed into the Church, but it is the BASIS on which the Church rests.
 
Romans 3:3.........
"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?"
"If some were without faith" = "For what if some did not believe?"

This is a question about the LACK of faith. Did a lack of faith cancel out the faithfulness of God? This is another "Put Up" question that Paul is anticipating and he is cutting it off before it gets asked.

Now, if the advantage of the Jews did not serve the intended purpose, does this then mean that God's faithfulness is annulled????

In other words, in country boy English.....Since the Jew failed, does that mean that God failed?

NO and I say again NO!

God's promise to send Israel the Redeemer was not defeated by their willful disobedience and rejection. ALL of His promises for the future of Israel will be fulfilled to His glory in spite of their un-belief!
 
Romans 3:4...........
“God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.”
You gotta love Paul's straight forward down to earth communication skills. GOD FORBID!
In modern English, this might be stated, loudly, as........ "no way!"
God's faithfulness does not depend on human faithfulness. The sentence...........
"God will be true even if every man is a liar" may come from Psalm 116:11.

Then Paul quotes directly from Psalm 51:4 to describe this aspect of God's character:.........
"That you may be justified in your words, and prevail when you are judged."

In other words, God always keeps His word and remains faithful to His people no matter what they do. That's why His words and judgments are justified. He never ever breaks His side of any covenant agreement. Never has and never will!
 
Romans 3:5............
"But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? Is God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)".
For the third time in a row, Paul asks a question of himself, as if challenging his own statements at the end of Romans chapter 2.

Now, the whole point is this: ... If my unrighteousness reveals the marvelous faithfulness of God, then has God the right to judge me?

Paul said that all people, both Gentiles and Jews, will be judged by God for their sin. Jews will not be spared God's judgment because they have the law or have been circumcised. Those things matter, but all Jews have broken the law just as all Gentiles have been sinful.

Now Paul's imagined questioner asks a more pointed question. In essence, he asks, "If God's righteousness is revealed by our unrighteousness—by our sinfulness—why would God inflict His anger on us? Isn't that unfair?

In fact, doesn't that make God Himself unrighteous?" Put another way.......
"If our being bad makes God look good, why is God angry with us? Why would He punish us, especially those of us in His chosen people Israel?"

Do you see that Paul is preaching very clearly that the unsaved man understands that salvation is then by the GRACE of God!

Paul includes an aside here, clarifying that he is speaking from a purely human perspective, using a human argument. Many translations put that last sentence in parenthesis to show that Paul is breaking character from this questioner to make it clear to his readers just how ridiculous this question is. This is also intended, by Paul, to clarify that this is not a statement or teaching which he, himself, is making. Rather, this is a point Paul is posing simply to clarify what he is not saying in this letter.

Paul will answer this imagined question with a resounding "no" in the following verses.
 
Hello again crossnote,
crossnote said:
Actually, I probably should had directed my point at Major's (#97). You seem to be zeroing in on the Bema Seat of Christ whereas I was zeroing in on the judgment of unbelievers. (Major spoke of "varying degrees of punishment in the Lake of Fire.") That's why I went in that direction. 🧭
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Hi Crossnote, actually, I believe that Major and I are in agreement about that, even though, unlike the variance in "rewards" the saints, the Bible doesn't discuss a variance in punishments for the reprobate directly (though I am of the opinion it does indirectly, and also that differences in the level of punishment must exist). IOW, while Hell is w/o end for all who are sent there due to unbelief and impenitent sin, the belief that Hell will be more "hellish" (so to speak) for monsters like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc., than it will be for the others (who never committed such heinous/gross acts of sin) seems reasonable (and necessary, if true justice is to be served).

How will Hitler (for instance) ever receive his just desserts if his punishment in the Lake of Fire is the very same as someone else's who (although an unsaved sinner like Hitler was, of course) never committed the kinds of gross sins and atrocities against humanity that he did? He never paid for any of those.

I'm not locked into this position (and I'm certain that it is based upon Milton's vision of Hell, to a degree anyway), so if you are convinced that there are NOT differing levels of punishment in Hell (levels of punishment that are commensurate with the deeds committed in this life by each individual, that is), please elaborate a bit about that as I would like to consider what you have to say.

Thanks brother :)

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
 
Papa Smurf said:
Hello again crossnote,

Hi Crossnote, actually, I believe that Major and I are in agreement about that, even though, unlike the variance in "rewards" the saints, the Bible doesn't discuss a variance in punishments for the reprobate directly (though I am of the opinion it does indirectly, and also that differences in the level of punishment must exist). IOW, while Hell is w/o end for all who are sent there due to unbelief and impenitent sin, the belief that Hell will be more "hellish" (so to speak) for monsters like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, etc., than it will be for the others (who never committed such heinous/gross acts of sin) seems reasonable (and necessary, if true justice is to be served).

How will Hitler (for instance) ever receive his just desserts if his punishment in the Lake of Fire is the very same as someone else's who (although an unsaved sinner like Hitler was, of course) never committed the kinds of gross sins and atrocities against humanity that he did? He never paid for any of those.

I'm not locked into this position (and I'm certain that it is based upon Milton's vision of Hell, to a degree anyway), so if you are convinced that there are NOT differing levels of punishment in Hell (levels of punishment that are commensurate with the deeds committed in this life by each individual, that is), please elaborate a bit about that as I would like to consider what you have to say.

Thanks brother :)

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
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Papa Smurf, I guess I see this from God's perspective, sin is heinous and the least infraction is deadly and deserves the full weight of God's wrath, in which case it takes an eternal and spotless Savior to take that wrath, which leaves the greatest sin (not that of Hitler/Stalin/Mao, etc.) but the sin of rejecting God's Son and His atonement for their sin.
I realize there are differences of opinion on this.
God bless.
 
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Major said:
I have taught that very same thing for all of my life my dear brother.

There is something deep inside of all humans that screams against this conclusion of innocent babies being condemned to hell on the basis of the Calvinist idea of Election. Our common sense and brain says..... It seems so unjust that God would send innocent babies to Hell to be tormented forever without giving them an opportunity to trust in Jesus. It’s just not fair.
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Hi Major, for now I will leave both "fairness", and more importantly, "justice", out of the argument (about babies burning in Hell on the basis of their fallen nature alone, that is), and just say that I, along with Calvin in this case, do not believe that to be a "Biblical" position (based upon, in no small part, what we are taught in Romans 2:12-16). As Abraham said to God (in similar fashion) .. Genesis 18:25.

Calvin said some terrible 'sounding' things about reprobate infants to make a point, but the stern (righteously angry?) arguments that he makes against Servetus' teaching in regard to this (in Institutes), that babies who die go straight to Hell because they never freely chose to come to saving faith in Christ while they were alive, could not be clearer. Basically, he (Calvin) taught that God would never do such a thing (condemn someone who is personally innocent of wrongdoing to live out eternity in the Lake of Fire on the basis of their nature alone/on the basis of a sin committed by someone else, that is).

Where I stop short in my agreement with him (Calvin) is in how he believes God makes this possible (he teaches, again in Institutes, that while God allows elect children to die in infancy, he preserves the lives of reprobate infants until they are old enough to knowingly choose to commit their own sins for which they can & will then be held eternally accountable (because they remain outside of Christ).

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - I do not have the references from Institutes concerning this handy, or I would have posted them. I will look for them when time allows me to do so (and return and post them here).
 
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crossnote said:
Papa Smurf, I guess I see this from God's perspective, sin is heinous and the least infraction is deadly and deserves the full weight of God's wrath, in which case it takes an eternal and spotless Savior to take that wrath, which leaves the greatest sin (not that of Hitler/Stalin/Mao, etc.) but the sin of rejecting God's Son and His atonement for their sin.
I realize there are differences of opinion on this.
God bless.
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If what you believe is true of "punishment" for the reprobate in Hell (that ~all~ will receive the same "punishment", regardless of type and quantity of sin that they committed personally in this life), should the same not also be true for "rewards" that the saints will receive in Heaven (since there is NOTHING greater, no act of personal righteousness, that is, that can come close to surpassing the very righteousness of God that has already been credited to all of our accounts by God)?

To say it another way, if God deems the personal/righteous acts of His saints worthy of reward (to be just), why would the same not also be true for the reprobate (to be just), such that those who lived far more sinful lives on this side of the grave will receive a far greater punishment in the age to come (at least temporarily) that those who led far less sinful lives?

I'm not sure that I am explaining myself clearly. If not, please let me know and I will try again.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - I do understand and am further considering your POV about eternal punishment, just FYI.
 
crossnote said:
I wonder where in Scripture (Servetus, or is it Calvin?) he comes up with that?
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That was Servetus' "free will" POV, IOW, he taught that all babies who die go straight to Hell (because they never chose to believe). Calvin is the one who argues strongly against Servetus' position, just FYI, believing that it would be unjust of God to send babies to Hell for something that they were incapable of doing (sinning personally and/or failing to come to saving faith and believe).
 
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