Hi Calvin - I agree with the latter above, but I'm sticking with the concept that the act of sin is always the evidence of its conception prior to it being done. (Jam 1:14)
The Controlled Fall
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Hi Calvin - I agree with the latter above, but I'm sticking with the concept that the act of sin is always the evidence of its conception prior to it being done. (Jam 1:14)
Yes, and what James is saying is what happened in Eden. The difference being that in Eden they started out with a clean slate...we do not..
As for passing everything off as being in accord with the foreknowledge of the Lord, consider :
Gen 18:20 "And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;"
Gen 18:21 "I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." emphasis added.
What! didn't His foreknowledge tell Him just how bad thing were? the use of the word 'see' does not mean anything other that how it is used....it means to observe, to verify.
I do not raise this with an attitude of derision in my heart, just a plea for common sense to prevail when touching on things involving free will.
To cut straight to the bone, if God foreknew that Adam and Eve would rebel as they did, we would in all probability have been told that.
As it is, when we place, or apply concepts in Scripture which lack being there by divine inspiration, we risk blinding ourselves to deeper truths.
more later, the Lord permitting
Well Christ was born of both, but let's not use God as an example. I do believe that Jesus' human nature was able to be tempted and that He learned to submit to His spiritual nature, who was God.
That we do develop a sinful nature does not mean we are born with it. The law reveals it as Paul taught in Roamns. Accountability starts at a young age, but no one knows exactly when, except for God.
I concur...Jesus said even if you look at a woman with lust you have committed adultery. Jesus made it very clear that sin STARTS in the heart NOT in the act.
What is conveyed in scripture is NOT always literal. The figurative is used a lot. The Bible as a whole tells us that the Lamb of God existed before the creation of the world, so as such, God knew a lamb would be required and He knew that Eve would sin. God's foreknowledge just like His Omnipotence, has no limit. It may not be able to be fully comprehended by our finite minds, but He CAN and IS able to do exceedingly and abundantly beyond what we can imagine. To think God has only reacted over all time is to instill in Him human qualities or foibles that He does NOT have. God's plan was/is perfect and ALL contingencies are in place. To assume what God PROBABLY would do, is to limit God and our faith, which is what we are to walk in.
God did not repent of having made man, as repent connotes sin. Again we need to see the proper form of language that is actually being used in the Bible.
We need to be guided by 1 Cor 2:11 when we read scripture as well as scripture itself, in totality.
Psalm 51:5 says clearly we are born of a sinful nature -
Psa 51:5
Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Does that mean that the act which brings about conception is sin? Does that mean that David's mom was not married to his dad?
What was the occasion for this lamentation? ie is v5 a 'one liner'; a quotable quote, or does it have a context?You sound like you know all about it Stan. You must have a sure fire key to differentiate between that which is literal and that which is figurative........care to share this key with the less enlightened?
How can we determine that the encounter with the three visitors on their way to beat up on Sodom was figurative and not literal?
If (figuratively speaking of course), the Lord was going to see if the fact was as bad as the rumor, who might the 'tattle tale/s' have been? So many questions are borne out of not believing God's word, or wanting to decide that it needs to fit our own ideas.
Have you considered Who the watchers are and what their function is? Dan 4:23. "And because the king saw a watcher, a holy one, coming down from heaven and saying, 'Chop down the tree and destroy it, but leave the stump of its roots in the earth, bound with a band of iron and bronze, in the tender grass of the field, and let him be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven periods of time pass over him," Of course this was only a dream.....a figurative vision..............was it? Read the next few verses before jumping to conclusions.
And these are literal sentinels as are the children's angels. Matt 18:10. "See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven." These are functional watchers. They report to the Lord what they have seen.
All that is saying is that David was born into a sinful world and that his mother was a sinner when she conceived him.
I believe that He set things in motion and had expectations of how they would pan out. I believe in His inherent omniscience, I assume you in total?
From wikipedia:
- inherent omniscience - the ability to know anything that one chooses to know and can be known.
- total omniscience - actually knowing everything that can be known.
''brought forth in iniquity'' not ''with'' iniquity.
Rather than the way of the disobedient wicked and their downfall, is there a lesson to be learned about living a life that is right in the sight of God?
"Teach me, O Jehovah, the way of thy statutes; And I shall keep it unto the end.
Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; Yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; For therein do I delight."
Psa 119
"Teach me, O Jehovah, the way of thy statutes; And I shall keep it unto the end.
Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; Yea, I shall observe it with my whole heart.
Make me to go in the path of thy commandments; For therein do I delight."
Psa 119
With the exception of me saying God set a mousetrap for mankind. He has just done things in such a way that our decision to accept or reject Him is sped up.
God creating us and the angels with the ability to rebel does not mean we were not created perfect. Created perfect with free will is not the same as created with a sin nature. Not sure if you still accept we are created with a sin nature.
Agreed.......we (Adam & Eve) were created "innocent" not righteous!
IF that is all that is being said here in your opinion...........YOU my friend are missing the whole concept!
calvin hit it on the head in comment #67...............
"Does that mean that the act which brings about conception is sin? Does that mean that David's mom was not married to his dad?
What was the occasion for this lamentation? ie is v5 a 'one liner'; a quotable quote, or does it have a context?"Absolutly there is a context and Stan is missing it completely.
Psalms 51:1-3
"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me."
Sin is always complicated. It is never simple! It is goodness that is simple!There are several words that David uses to describe his sin.
Transgressions.
To transgress is to step over the boundries of God. God has put up certain boundries in this life. He has certain physical laws. He has certain moral laws. He has certain spiritual laws. Any time man attempts to step over those laws, he will always suffer the consequences. To do that is always called TRANSGRESSION.
Iniquity
Iniquity means that which is altogether wrong. You can not excuse it. You can not apologize for it. You can not in any condone it. There are two words translated with the English word SIN. In verse #2 and #3 it is the Hebrew word:
CHATTATH which means "sin offering".
In verse #4 it is CHATA.....translated in the Septuagint by the Greek word HAMARTIA meaning ...........................
"TO MISS THE MARK"!
We do not come up to God's standard and it is in that sense that all of us today are SINNERS!!!!!
Romans 3:23......
"All have sinned and come short of the glory (Standard) of God".
Evil
This means something that is actually wrong. In our day today we have preachers who condone all kinds of immorality. The Word of God is very clear on what is right and what is wrong. God is unmistakably certain on these things. EVIL is what is actually wrong. David uses the word to speak of the fact that he was wrong!!!!!!
Now with all that said to show you that there is a lot more here than just a simple comment and to get at the CONTEXT to which calvin correctly advised..............lets look at verse 4
Psalms 51:4....
"Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest."
Now..........was his sin against God? Certainly.
But wasn't it also against Bathsheba??? Absolutely!!!
Wasn't his sin againt his family?? ABSOLUTELY!. He already had a family at that time.
Wasn't his sin against society??? YES!.
Wasn't his sin againt Jerusalem??? YES!
But in the final analysis, SIN IS ALWAYS AGAINST GOD!!!
Then in verse 5 David makes it clear that sin goes back to a sin nature.......
Verse #5
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
There are those who believe and teach that they are all right and are not senistive to sin. THey believe that because they accepted Christ that they are free from sin and in fact can not sin ever again.
Consider the Bible first ..........
Eccl. 7:20
"There is not a man upon earth that doest good, and sinneth not".
Prov. 30:12
"There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness".
Rom. 7:18
"For I know that in me (that is my flesh) dwelleth no good thing".
David you see went right down to the root of the matter and confessed that he had a sin nature.
Hey Net........I think it might be helpful if we all considered sin first originated in heaven before the fall of man.
Now.......Adam and Eve, when they were created in the Garden of Eden, were without sin. Because of that, they were perfect and flawless. I got it!!!!
However, with that theology in mind, Why, if Adam and Eve were perfect, did they choose to sin?
IMO.......Existing in a perfect state did not deprive Adam and Eve of Free Will.
Did God know what there choice would be......ABSOLUTELY!
But the test had to be made for THEM to know. It was when they sinned that THEIR EYES WERE OPENED AND THEY KNEW.
Genesis 3:4-5 tells us that the serpent firstly modified God's Word by promising Eve that by taking of the forbidden fruit she would not surely die. Second, he enticed her with the promise of knowledge (knowing good and evil).
Genesis 3:4-5 (KJV) And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
You might say that Eve was led into believing that the serpent was showing her a "fast-track" way to become closer to God.I think it all comes back to the thought that Adam and Eve were created INNOCENT not RIGHTEOUS.
Righteous is the abilty to remain innocent when tested/tempted.
Does that mean that the act which brings about conception is sin? Does that mean that David's mom was not married to his dad?
No calvin, it MEANS she was a sinner, like we ALL are. Maybe you can actually commit to an opinion, instead of picking everyone elses apart.
Sarcasm, facetiousness and arrogance doesn't really help calvin. If you have an opinion, state it. If a rebuttal, rebut.
Maybe you should try staying ON topic and address each post within it's own context.
I have no inclination to play your games.
IF that is all that is being said here in your opinion...........YOU my friend are missing the whole concept!
calvin hit it on the head in comment #67...............
"Does that mean that the act which brings about conception is sin? Does that mean that David's mom was not married to his dad?
Absolutly there is a context and Stan is missing it completely.
Psalms 51:1-3
"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin. For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me."
Sin is always complicated. It is never simple! It is goodness that is simple!There are several words that David uses to describe his sin.
Transgressions.
To transgress is to step over the boundries of God. God has put up certain boundries in this life. He has certain physical laws. He has certain moral laws. He has certain spiritual laws. Any time man attempts to step over those laws, he will always suffer the consequences. To do that is always called TRANSGRESSION.
Iniquity
Iniquity means that which is altogether wrong. You can not excuse it. You can not apologize for it. You can not in any condone it. There are two words translated with the English word SIN. In verse #2 and #3 it is the Hebrew word:
CHATTATH which means "sin offering".
In verse #4 it is CHATA.....translated in the Septuagint by the Greek word HAMARTIA meaning ...........................
"TO MISS THE MARK"!
We do not come up to God's standard and it is in that sense that all of us today are SINNERS!!!!!
Romans 3:23......
"All have sinned and come short of the glory (Standard) of God".
Evil
This means something that is actually wrong. In our day today we have preachers who condone all kinds of immorality. The Word of God is very clear on what is right and what is wrong. God is unmistakably certain on these things. EVIL is what is actually wrong. David uses the word to speak of the fact that he was wrong!!!!!!
Now with all that said to show you that there is a lot more here than just a simple comment and to get at the CONTEXT to which calvin correctly advised..............lets look at verse 4
Psalms 51:4....
"Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest."
Now..........was his sin against God? Certainly.
But wasn't it also against Bathsheba??? Absolutely!!!
Wasn't his sin againt his family?? ABSOLUTELY!. He already had a family at that time.
Wasn't his sin against society??? YES!.
Wasn't his sin againt Jerusalem??? YES!
But in the final analysis, SIN IS ALWAYS AGAINST GOD!!!
Then in verse 5 David makes it clear that sin goes back to a sin nature.......
Verse #5
"Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
There are those who believe and teach that they are all right and are not senistive to sin. THey believe that because they accepted Christ that they are free from sin and in fact can not sin ever again.
Consider the Bible first ..........
Eccl. 7:20
"There is not a man upon earth that doest good, and sinneth not".
Prov. 30:12
"There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness".
Rom. 7:18
"For I know that in me (that is my flesh) dwelleth no good thing".
David you see went right down to the root of the matter and confessed that he had a sin nature.
You sure can talk Major. To bad you didn't even address the original post. The ISSUE, is "are we born WITH a sin nature"? The answer is NO. That David recognized his and that ALL the adult writers of the Bible recognize theirs, as do I, does NOT mean we are born WITH it. Maybe you also believe that newborns who die, go to hell? Or 1 year olds, or two years olds?
God bless you Stan, and thaks for the compliment. I tried to make it understandable for all to read.
SO.......YOU say we are not born with a sin nature.
Do we just develope it as we grow? Is there is time when it jumps on us.
NO, Stan, you are ver wrong. I know you mean well but..........we must alwys consider the Scriptures when posting such claims.
Romans 5:12: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned”
Acts 17:26 “And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth”.
Because we all come from the same original man we inherited his flawed makeup of nature. Sin entered the world through the first man and spread to all his offspring- this happened by Adam sinning. Death is a result of sin, it was the result of sin. It occurred two ways. First God told Adam the day you eat of it you will die, Adam was separated from the Lord he died spiritually and was severed in his relationship. Second- He died physically, which was a result of his nature change. Aging and death began on that day. Both were a result from his disobedience in eating the fruit of the tree. 1 Cor.15:56: “the sting of death is sin,..”
Romans 5:18-19 says, "through one man's trespass, judgment came to all men, for by one man's disobedience all were made sinners."
1 Cor. 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” Death came by Adam and the resurrection can only come to mankind by believing in Jesus Christ.
Later, God brought the law for us to see our sin measured by his standard. Gal 3:19 “Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions,.., until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.”
Rom. 5:20-21 “Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”
Because of our fallen humanity we cannot act apart from our nature. We can see the sin nature at work even in a child who is not trained in behavior as a child disobeys and is selfish naturally, they do not need to learn this. The Bible says we act on our nature. The Psalmist says Ps.58:3 “the wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth speaking lies.
We don't just make up our mind to sin or make a mistake and go from being perfect to being sinful. Eph. 2:3 “and were by nature the children of wrath”
James 1:14-15 “But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.”
As for children going to hell. IF you had read baack through the posts, you would have found that we had a very long discussion on just that several months ago. I was and I am a believer that babies go to heaven at death.
If you had asked me in a nice Christian way, I am sure we could have discussed it, but this will do for now.
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