The Controlled Fall

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God bless you Stan, and thaks for the compliment. I tried to make it understandable for all to read.

SO.......YOU say we are not born with a sin nature.

Do we just develope it as we grow? Is there is time when it jumps on us.

NO, Stan, you are ver wrong. I know you mean well but..........we must alwys consider the Scriptures when posting such claims.

Romans 5:12: “Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned

Acts 17:26 “And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth”.
Because we all come from the same original man we inherited his flawed makeup of nature. Sin entered the world through the first man and spread to all his offspring- this happened by Adam sinning. Death is a result of sin, it was the result of sin. It occurred two ways. First God told Adam the day you eat of it you will die, Adam was separated from the Lord he died spiritually and was severed in his relationship. Second- He died physically, which was a result of his nature change. Aging and death began on that day. Both were a result from his disobedience in eating the fruit of the tree. 1 Cor.15:56: “the sting of death is sin,..”

Romans 5:18-19 says, "through one man's trespass, judgment came to all men, for by one man's disobedience all were made sinners."
1 Cor. 15:22: “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive.” Death came by Adam and the resurrection can only come to mankind by believing in Jesus Christ.

Later, God brought the law for us to see our sin measured by his standard. Gal 3:19Why the Law then? It was added because of transgressions,.., until the seed should come to whom the promise had been made.”

Rom. 5:20-21 “Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.”

Because of our fallen humanity we cannot act apart from our nature. We can see the sin nature at work even in a child who is not trained in behavior as a child disobeys and is selfish naturally, they do not need to learn this. The Bible says we act on our nature. The Psalmist says Ps.58:3 “the wicked go astray from the womb, they err from their birth speaking lies.
We don't just make up our mind to sin or make a mistake and go from being perfect to being sinful. Eph. 2:3 “and were by nature the children of wrath

James 1:14-15 “But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.”

As for children going to hell. IF you had read back through the posts, you would have found that we had a very long discussion on just that several months ago. I was and I am a believer that babies go to heaven at death.

If you had asked me in a nice Christian way, I am sure we could have discussed it, but this will do for now.

Yes Major, we MUST consider scripture... ACCURATELY... and none of the scripture you provide above supports your assertion that we are born with sin. If we are born with sin then how do babies get saved?
Paul says in many places in Romans that where there is no law there is no sin. Eph 2:3 is talking about adults, NOT children.
Psalm 139:14 says; I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
 
You sure can talk Major. To bad you didn't even address the original post. The ISSUE, is "are we born WITH a sin nature"? The answer is NO. That David recognized his and that ALL the adult writers of the Bible recognize theirs, as do I, does NOT mean we are born WITH it. Maybe you also believe that newborns who die, go to hell? Or 1 year olds, or two years olds?

Stan........Instead of only the image of God being passed down through the human procreation process, a sin nature was passed as well: “When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth” (Genesis 5:3).

The fact is that each and every person born from the beginning has inherited the sin nature of his parents, with both the Old and New Testaments speaking to this fact. For example, David says, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5).

In another Psalm, David states: “The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth” (Psalm 58:3). His son Solomon wrote: "Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins” (Ecclesiastes 7:20).

David lamented this fact in one of his Psalms: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). This does not mean that his mother bore him illegitimately; rather, his mother had inherited a sin nature from her parents, and they from their parents, and so on. David inherited sin from his parents, just as we all do. Even if we live the best life possible, we are still sinners as a result of inherited sin.

Now Stan.....if you will read it carfully, I DID NOT SAY THAT WE ARE BORN SINNERS. We are born with a sin nature.

Why does a dog bark? It is his nature.
Why does a cat meow? It is his nature.
Why do birds fly? It is their nature.

Why does man sin? It is his nature!!!

It saddens me that a man of your age and ability has rejected the Bible doctrine of the Federated Headship of Adam.
It is one of those basics that must be correctly understood or the other Bible doctrines will be problamatic.
 
Stan........Instead of only the image of God being passed down through the human procreation process, a sin nature was passed as well: “When Adam had lived one hundred and thirty years, he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image, and named him Seth” (Genesis 5:3).


Don't see 'sin nature' here.


The fact is that each and every person born from the beginning has inherited the sin nature of his parents, with both the Old and New Testaments speaking to this fact. For example, David says, "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5).


The Hebrew word used for 'iniquity' here is `avon, and it does not mean 'SIN NATURE'. The 'iniquity' here, is the ongoing punishment of death. The word 'sin' here actually does mean sin, so you can either lake the low road in that David was a bastard, or his mother and father were not married. If you take the high road and accept that there was no actual sin involved at the point of conception, then it means he was conceived in a sinful world or by a person with a sinful nature. Either way, it does NOT convey that David had that sinful AT birth.



In another Psalm, David states: “The wicked are estranged from the womb; these who speak lies go astray from birth” (Psalm 58:3). His son Solomon wrote: "Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins” (Ecclesiastes 7:20).


It's funny how to serve your own purposes, you will takes verses like this and advocate they are to be used literally, when at other times to suite your purpose, they are used metaphorically. I have no problem with Eccl. 7:20, as it does NOT advocate we are born with a 'sin nature'. In all honestly if you really think that Psalm 58:3 literally states that human IN the womb or from the womb cal lie, when they can't even speak or think, then you have a much bigger problem than just being disingenuous. Being 'estranged' only means we need Christ, even in the OT.
Abraham believed that promise from God and will be resurrected with ALL believers.



David lamented this fact in one of his Psalms: “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me” (Psalm 51:5). This does not mean that his mother bore him illegitimately; rather, his mother had inherited a sin nature from her parents, and they from their parents, and so on. David inherited sin from his parents, just as we all do. Even if we live the best life possible, we are still sinners as a result of inherited sin.


I just dealt with this above, so I won't bother addressing it again. Why bring it up twice in the same post?



Now Stan.....if you will read it carefully, I DID NOT SAY THAT WE ARE BORN SINNERS. We are born with a sin nature.
Why does a dog bark? It is his nature.
Why does a cat meow? It is his nature.
Why do birds fly? It is their nature.
Why does man sin? It is his nature!!!
It saddens me that a man of your age and ability has rejected the Bible doctrine of the Federated Headship of Adam.
It is one of those basics that must be correctly understood or the other Bible doctrines will be problematic.



Funny how you phrase a scripture that says exactly the opposite as to what you say right here. The fact is you haven't provided ANY scripture that supports we are BORN with a SIN NATURE. Comparing us to animals is not germane at all to the issue.
As I have NEVER hear of the Federated Headship of Adam, I'm pretty sure I can't be rejecting it and I also can't accept what it is based on YOUR say so. You should know full well by now, that I don't really subscribe to man-made doctrines, JUST to what the Bible says about any given subject. I don't accept your false piety or sadness for other than what it is, false piety. I have ALL the basics of Christianity covered very well thank you, including this issue. Your continued lack of mis-appropriating or mis=quoting scripture in an eisegetical manner does not make you the Bible Answer Man...that job was Walter Martin's. Maybe you should read his books to learn how to study the bible properly.
 
Don't see 'sin nature' here.





The Hebrew word used for 'iniquity' here is `avon, and it does not mean 'SIN NATURE'. The 'iniquity' here, is the ongoing punishment of death. The word 'sin' here actually does mean sin, so you can either lake the low road in that David was a bastard, or his mother and father were not married. If you take the high road and accept that there was no actual sin involved at the point of conception, then it means he was conceived in a sinful world or by a person with a sinful nature. Either way, it does NOT convey that David had that sinful AT birth.






It's funny how to serve your own purposes, you will takes verses like this and advocate they are to be used literally, when at other times to suite your purpose, they are used metaphorically. I have no problem with Eccl. 7:20, as it does NOT advocate we are born with a 'sin nature'. In all honestly if you really think that Psalm 58:3 literally states that human IN the womb or from the womb cal lie, when they can't even speak or think, then you have a much bigger problem than just being disingenuous. Being 'estranged' only means we need Christ, even in the OT.
Abraham believed that promise from God and will be resurrected with ALL believers.






I just dealt with this above, so I won't bother addressing it again. Why bring it up twice in the same post?







Funny how you phrase a scripture that says exactly the opposite as to what you say right here. The fact is you haven't provided ANY scripture that supports we are BORN with a SIN NATURE. Comparing us to animals is not germane at all to the issue.
As I have NEVER hear of the Federated Headship of Adam, I'm pretty sure I can't be rejecting it and I also can't accept what it is based on YOUR say so. You should know full well by now, that I don't really subscribe to man-made doctrines, JUST to what the Bible says about any given subject. I don't accept your false piety or sadness for other than what it is, false piety. I have ALL the basics of Christianity covered very well thank you, including this issue. Your continued lack of mis-appropriating or mis=quoting scripture in an eisegetical manner does not make you the Bible Answer Man...that job was Walter Martin's. Maybe you should read his books to learn how to study the bible properly.

No Stan......I believe I will make use of the "Ignored Member" button that is available for me to use. I really do not like to banter back and forth with the high school attitude you use.

Never heard of Federal Headship of Adam??? That pretty much tells the whole story to me.

For you Stan..........
In Christianity, this concept has been used to explain the concepts of the covenant found in the Bible. In particular, it has been applied to passages such as Rom. 15:12-2, explaining the relation of all humanity with Adam, as well as the relation of redeemed humanity with Jesus, who is called the last Adam. According to this understanding, as humanity's federal head Adam brought the entire human race into sin, misery, and death due to his disobedience.Christ, in his perfect obedience to God the Father, earned eternal life and blessedness for all his people.

That is just two examples of Federated Headship. It is available on line and if you goggle it, it would be a blessing to you for we all need to understand it as it explaines why some things are the way they are.

But since as you said......I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THE FEDERATED HEADSHIP OF ADAM, that explains why you do not understand the issue with sin and its problems.

Your idea of Bible understanding is for a lack of words......"disturbing" to me and your inablity to communicate with others is to say the least perplexing. For some reason you have tried to make me the enemy and that also is troubling. It seems as well that you struggle with jealousey in that you feel the need to insult my trying to enlighten you of God's Word.

So, I am going to leave you with the others to insult and leave waveing.........adios my friend!!!
 
No Stan......I believe I will make use of the "Ignored Member" button that is available for me to use. I really do not like to banter back and forth with the high school attitude you use.

Never heard of Federal Headship of Adam??? That pretty much tells the whole story to me.

For you Stan..........
In Christianity, this concept has been used to explain the concepts of the covenant found in the Bible. In particular, it has been applied to passages such as Rom. 15:12-2, explaining the relation of all humanity with Adam, as well as the relation of redeemed humanity with Jesus, who is called the last Adam. According to this understanding, as humanity's federal head Adam brought the entire human race into sin, misery, and death due to his disobedience.Christ, in his perfect obedience to God the Father, earned eternal life and blessedness for all his people.

That is just two examples of Federated Headship. It is available on line and if you goggle it, it would be a blessing to you for we all need to understand it as it explaines why some things are the way they are.

But since as you said......I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THE FEDERATED HEADSHIP OF ADAM, that explains why you do not understand the issue with sin and its problems.

Your idea of Bible understanding is for a lack of words......"disturbing" to me and your inablity to communicate with others is to say the least perplexing. For some reason you have tried to make me the enemy and that also is troubling. It seems as well that you struggle with jealousey in that you feel the need to insult my trying to enlighten you of God's Word.

So, I am going to leave you with the others to insult and leave waveing.........adios my friend!!!


Finally..... (y)

You don't have to go away mad Major... but yes please just go away. The thing I have the biggest problem with members like you, is the condescending patronizing tone you set in your posts. Will be nice to not see them anymore.
 
No Stan......I believe I will make use of the "Ignored Member" button that is available for me to use. I really do not like to banter back and forth with the high school attitude you use.

Never heard of Federal Headship of Adam??? That pretty much tells the whole story to me.

For you Stan..........
In Christianity, this concept has been used to explain the concepts of the covenant found in the Bible. In particular, it has been applied to passages such as Rom. 15:12-2, explaining the relation of all humanity with Adam, as well as the relation of redeemed humanity with Jesus, who is called the last Adam. According to this understanding, as humanity's federal head Adam brought the entire human race into sin, misery, and death due to his disobedience.Christ, in his perfect obedience to God the Father, earned eternal life and blessedness for all his people.

That is just two examples of Federated Headship. It is available on line and if you goggle it, it would be a blessing to you for we all need to understand it as it explaines why some things are the way they are.

But since as you said......I HAVE NEVER HEARD OF THE FEDERATED HEADSHIP OF ADAM, that explains why you do not understand the issue with sin and its problems.

Your idea of Bible understanding is for a lack of words......"disturbing" to me and your inablity to communicate with others is to say the least perplexing. For some reason you have tried to make me the enemy and that also is troubling. It seems as well that you struggle with jealousey in that you feel the need to insult my trying to enlighten you of God's Word.

So, I am going to leave you with the others to insult and leave waveing.........adios my friend!!!
Major you might as well argue with a 'hot air balloon' in full flight. There are fundamental deficits in comprehension skills showing up here that you can not expect to help when they are powered by an immature and dysfunctional ego.
You did well to terminate that fruitless discussion....IMNSHO.
 
Major you might as well argue with a 'hot air balloon' in full flight. There are fundamental deficits in comprehension skills showing up here that you can not expect to help when they are powered by an immature and dysfunctional ego.
You did well to terminate that fruitless discussion....IMNSHO.

Of course you are right calvin.
 
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