The Controversy Between Christ And Satan

Brother Paul said:
Misunderstanding heyal, Jerome used the term lux ferre (a term usually used for the planet venus) as "morning star" (not implied in the Hebrew which means shinning one) for the sake of the Latin speaking commoners...only then (without realizing it, or maybe he did) he brings in a confusion, because the Apocalypse called the Word/Son of God the bright and morning star (not referring to venus but to the light coming forth to dispel the darkness) and now some argue that Jesus is either Satan or the Bible is in error....only Jerome was in error (32 noted errors in the Vulgate the first is Genesis 3:15 hmmm?)...lux ferre then became Lucifer. So Lucifer is NOT the devil's name and is NOT in the Bible until the Hebrew is interpreted into the Greek and then interpreted into the Latin (the English Bibles followed...like with the word Easter another error)
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Beloved, I can understand what your saying: that's what happens when a person (probably Jerome) attempts to either interpret the scriptures without the Holy Spirit, or adding their little bit of Catholic doctrine.

It's difficult enough trying to drown out the yelling of the world and listening to the leading of the Holy Spirit.
 
"Is heaven a bigger place?"

Do you consider eternity a "place"? I know that this universe is a place; that this planet is a place. But this place we inhabit, and the universe, is so small...and cannot be compared to eternity. I do not say that eternity is so vast, and big, because...how can a man measure everlasting? But I'll try. If we take this universe with all its galaxies and say it corresponds to eternity, then we must take the smallest speck of sand and try to say it corresponds to the universe, in comparison: and confess that God inhabits all of eternity.

God is not a thing, who has a temporal body. God is Spirit, and fills everything. God is as a light that is so powerful, that everything it fills also becomes light; and nothing can differentiate between the light that fills, from the light that was filled.
Enjoy your walk in Him, Beloved.
 
I personally don't have a problem with the name, I feel it's more important to study the position he held in Heaven to understand how he works here on earth,

however, anyone want to try and explain this?

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isa 14:12

What nations, ...nations before Gen 1:2?

Blessings,

Gene
 
JustPassingThru said:
I personally don't have a problem with the name, I feel it's more important to study the position he held in Heaven to understand how he works here on earth,

however, anyone want to try and explain this?

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isa 14:12
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sure .. the word given is a VERB .. not a proper noun ..
it means "to shine" ..
my bible does not use the Latinized word ..
 
Isa 14:12 “How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn!
You have been cut down to the earth, You who have weakened the nations!

which is a fair translation ..

God does NOT dignify the damned ..
he is called "accuser" or "deceiver" by scripture ..
 
he Latin and the Greek, as well as an alleged form of the Hebrew word in verse Isa.14:12 means "bright shiner" or "shining one" .. However Isa.14:12 was not written in Latin or Greek, but Hebrew .. And "lucifer" is not a Hebrew word nor is it an English translation of a Hebrew word .. Lucifer is a Latin word related to a group of Latin derived English words including "lucid, luciferin and luciferose" which infer brightness or shining .. also "xosphoros" in the Greek is a derivative of English words such as, fluorescence and phosphorescence

The English word "Lucifer" found in the KJV was translated from the Latin Vulgate where we find the word "heylel" .. which was translated from the Septuagint where we find the Greek word "xosphoruos" .. which was translated from the original manuscripts where we find the Hebrew word "hehlehl, eill, which is a form of the Hebrew stem "yah-lahl, ill .. And the true meaning of "ill" is "howl"

The translators of the Septuagint (Hebrew into Greek) may have overlooked the smallest of the Hebrew letters .. or may have been using a rewrite in which it had been inadvertently omitted .. thus if the form of the world "eill" as it is used in this particular text were shortened to "ell" its meaning would be derived from a completely different root .. in fact would be a different root .. and the sense given in the Septuagint and the Vulgate would be understandable .. with one BIG exception, there is still absolutely no reason or rule of grammar for turning the word into a personal name .. It could possibly mean "a shining one" but not a personal name such as "Lucifer" .. I have no doubt the translators followed the Vulgate as they did in most of their translating

Isa. 13:6 eiliu Howl ye
Isa. 14:31 eili Howl
Isa. 15:2 iilil shall howl
Isa. 15:3 iilil shall howl
Isa. 16:7 iilil Howl
Isa. 16:7 iilil shall howl
Isa. 23:1 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 23:6 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 23:14 eililu Howl ye
Isa. 52:5 eililu make to howl
Isa. 65:14 eililu shall howl
Jer. 4:8 ueililu Howl
Jer. 25:34 eililu Howl
Jer. 47:2 ueill and shall howl
Jer. 48:20 eilili Howl
Jer. 48:31 ailil will I howl
Jer. 48:39 eililu They shall howl (Howl ye)
Jer. 49:3 eilili Howl (Howl ye)
Jer. 51:8 eililu howl
Ezek.30:2 eililu Howl ye
Hos. 7:14 iililu They howled
Joel 1:5 ueililu And howl
Joel 1:11 eililu howl
Joel 1:13 eililu And shall be howlings
Amos 8:1 ueililu and howl
Micah 1:8 uailile howl ye
Zeph. 1:11 aililu Howl
Zech.11:2 eill howl
Zech.11:2 eililu howl
Isa. 14:12 eill Lucifer (??)

"Lucifer" is totally out of place in this list .. The meaning of the word is clear .. eill is a verb that means HOWL and not a noun than can be turned into a personal name such as Lucifer .. Also notice that the Hebrew verb eill in Isa 14:12 is the identical form of the first verb eill in Zech. 11:2

nowhere was the name Lucifer ever used in Christian history before the KJV bible was translated
 
JustPassingThru said:
I personally don't have a problem with the name, I feel it's more important to study the position he held in Heaven to understand how he works here on earth,

however, anyone want to try and explain this?

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! Isa 14:12

What nations, ...nations before Gen 1:2?

Blessings,

Gene
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Here is something to think about Gene. Since the fall of Satan is seen yet future in Rev. 9:1, does it seem then that the prophet Isaiah is speaking to the PRESENT tense with the assurance of the future fulfillment of his prediction. He sees the Babylonian kings trying to ascent to heaven by the claim that they would make for themselves their own kingdom. So then, Isaiah pictures them as falling from heaven, just as certainly as Lucifer himself shall one day fall under the judgment of God.
 
Major said:
Here is something to think about Gene. Since the fall of Satan is seen yet future in Rev. 9:1, does it seem then that the prophet Isaiah is speaking to the PRESENT tense with the assurance of the future fulfillment of his prediction. He sees the Babylonian kings trying to ascent to heaven by the claim that they would make for themselves their own kingdom. So then, Isaiah pictures them as falling from heaven, just as certainly as Lucifer himself shall one day fall under the judgment of God.
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the fall of satan happened prior ..
he however is given access as to accuse (see Job & Rev) ..
Rev expresses the access to heaven to accuse being also taken away ..

Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was thrown down, the serpent of old who is called the devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

so the deceiver fell (sinned) a long time ago ..
he now is being booted .. and the angels are applauding God kicking satan out for good ..

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night.
 
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"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"
What nations, ...nations before Gen 1:2 ?
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Beloved, God had already formulated His plan, and He was now laying it out.
Gen 1:2 __ God "sees" the place to where He cast satan and the fallen angels: it is "...without form, and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep...". Darkness, because there was no light: neither the light of the stars (including our sun), nor the light, "...that lights every man the comes into the world." And God also saw the universe He was to create, including the earth: and the devastation of sin that satan was to impose on God's human creation.

Remember, Beloved, when touching upon God's creation, you must see it from God's perspective!
Walk in peace with the Lord.
 
ixoye_8 said:
so the truth is .. the name "lucifer" was "made-up" in 1611 by the reformist ..
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ixoye.......

Would it be a fair statement then to say that the 1611 translators had the planet Venus in mind?

I am not educated in the planets and astronomy, so I did the old goggle thing and saw that Venus is visible from earth only when it is off to one side or the other of a direct path from earth to the sun, and even then, it does not rise high in the sky as do the visible outer planets Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. Is this the source of the imagery, “How are you fallen from heaven!”--unlike the other planets--?.
 
ixoye_8 said:
the fall of satan happened prior ..
he however is given access as to accuse (see Job & Rev) ..
Rev expresses the access to heaven to accuse being also taken away ..
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Beloved, once God's Holiness cast satan out of God's presence, satan has no more access to heaven...and he never will again.

When God speaks to satan, He does so only in this realm of temporal creation.
 
interesting enough, when satan is freed from the pit after the millennium reign ..
he will then lack the ability to accuser us before God ..
as he has so enjoyed since the fall (sin) of Adam ..

even Job was accused of a false love for God by satan ..
 
Major said:
ixoye.......

Would it be a fair statement then to say that the 1611 translators had the planet Venus in mind?

I am not educated in the planets and astronomy, so I did the old goggle thing and saw that Venus is visible from earth only when it is off to one side or the other of a direct path from earth to the sun, and even then, it does not rise high in the sky as do the visible outer planets Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn. Is this the source of the imagery, “How are you fallen from heaven!”--unlike the other planets--?.
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I would say so ..
and rightly (in one sense) ..
as the deceiver tries to "make himself into God" and hence the use of Jesus' title ..

2Pe 1:19
So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts.

Rev 2:28
and I will give him the morning star.

Rev 22:16
“I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.”
 
the usage in the Isaiah verse would then be a mock by him, at satan for thinking he was God ..

translation from Hebrew to Greek to Latin ..
heylel/halal to xosphoruos to luciferin and luciferose

Phosphorus, (IPA: /'f?sf?r?s/, Greek: phôs meaning "light", and phoros meaning "bearer"), is the chemical element that has the symbol P and atomic number 15. A multivalent nonmetal of the nitrogen group, phosphorus is commonly found in inorganic phosphate rocks.
Due to its high reactivity,
 
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ixoye_8 said:
interesting enough, when satan is freed from the pit after the millennium reign ..
he will then lack the ability to accuser us before God ..
as he has so enjoyed since the fall (sin) of Adam ..

even Job was accused of a false love for God by satan ..
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Since Satan was locked up in the pit for 1000 years and then at the very end of that time," loosened for a little season".

Why in the world would God do that? Why let him go?
 
ixoye_8 said:
interesting enough, when satan is freed from the pit after the millennium reign ..
he will then lack the ability to accuser us before God ..
as he has so enjoyed since the fall (sin) of Adam ..
even Job was accused of a false love for God by satan ..
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"Now there was a day when the sons of God (believers of that time) came to present themselves before the Lord, and satan came also among them."
We need to understand this: God knows how to differentiate between those that are His, and those that are not; even as He knows the wheat from the tares. God will not gather up the tares "...lest you root up also the wheat with them." Meaning that the wheat is most important to Him. Satan knows this: listen.

The believers came together to either praise, worship, or petition God: or all three; "...and satan came also among them." He knew God would not try to destroy him (yes, satan fears God), because He might hurt one of His people! But it is God that initiated the talk with satan: "And the Lord said unto satan..." Why? Because God was about to prophesy...but that's a story for another time.
 
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