My friend of course Christ upheld the law! ( it is the law that brings all men to Him) and fulfilled every jot and tittle. But we have the rest of the New testament to put what He was saying in context of the gospel that Paul preached. The "keeping" of the commandments is not in the ability of man, but in the ability of the Spirit of God working in those who have the Spirit. But one cannot be under the letter and under the Spirit, this is made very clear.
The Divine Nature
- Thread starter Mitspa
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If you understood the "law of Christ" you would understand how it is the ONLY way to fulfill that which the "law of Moses" demanded If you would like to learn? I can help you understand. I hope you are willing to have an honest discussion? If you are, we will get along fine and help each other.
It is an interesting question, "what is legalism?"
You seem to be using the term to say, we recognize that we need to submit to Christ's headship. I don't see any problem with that.
When I have used the term (although I do shy away from it now precisely because of its ambiguity), I've meant basically what Peter said in Acts 15:10,
"Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear ?" The context is that Peter is responding to a debate about whether or not gentile believers should be directed to "observe the Law of Moses" (v.5).
I find that people can be labelled "Legalists" in a really condescending and dismissive way, and the term tends to carry a connotation of insult, so I think it's really good to have conversations like this, were we're asking, okay, what do you mean by that term when you're using it?
Do you know who the fullness of the Gentiles are? The fullness of the Gentiles are the melo ha'Goyim from Genesis 49 misinterpreted to say "multitude of nations". Rabbi Sha'ul (St. Paul) uses the exact same phrase used in this portion of scipture that the LXX Rabbis used when interpreting this section from the Hebrew pf their day.
Do the word study of Jacob’s prophecy over Ephraim as I have done! The word “melo” is translated by the Greek word “pleroma” in the Septuagint. This is the exact word Paul uses in Roman’s 11, and therefore the connection is clear. The word means fullness, not “a multitude.”
The phrase is found in Genesis 48:19.
Melo’ #H4393: is a masculine noun which literally means “fullness” or “that which fills” but it can also mean completeness (the verb form ‘mala’ means to accomplish or to be amassed together)
Ha’ is the standard definite article which is usually interpreted ‘the’, ‘of the’, or ‘a’! For example: Baruch ’Ha’Shem Adonai Y’shua Ha’Moschiach Tzeddkenu means Blessed be the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, our Righteousness. This article, just like in English always refers to the noun which in Hebrew precedes it (which in this Scripture is goyim) which in our English follows it (we say “the gentiles or nations” they say “gentiles the, or nations the”).
A second feature, taken from Genesius Hebrew Grammar, reveals that in Hebrew when the definite article is used it automatically implies we do not know precisely who the person, or which object, being described is! It would be like if I said “Go and pick the apple of your choice from my orchard.” I couldn’t possibly know which apple you would pick but that you would pick one would be without doubt. So when we say Ha’Shem (the Name) we cannot be sure which Name is being referred to. In this case the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) may be the name, but exactly how is it correctly pronounced…no one really knows!
Now as for ‘Goyim’ (#H1471), it is the plural of “goy” which refers to all non-Hebrews. Though as “people” it may include the physical descendants of Abraham, it more so refers to the heathen who knew not God. In all fairness it can be used to refer to “the nations” but again meaning the world apart from Jacob’s tribes (hence Goyim). The cognate root of the word is “ga-ah’ which means to have grown up, to be exalted in triumph, or to be lifted.
The Israelites (also called the children or House of Israel and also "Ephraim" in the prophets) as a result of the Assyrian captivity were sown in among the gentiles.
Hosea 7:8a - Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people (the goyim)…
Hosea 8:8 - Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.
Hosea 9:17 - My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.
Paul’s phrase “pleroma ton ethon”, in the Greek, spoke directly to the learned Rabbis of the diaspora and is a reference to the LXX translation of Genesis 48:19 which in classical Greek says ‘plethos ethnon’.
In effect, the goyim church is bringing Jacob (Israel) back on its shoulders....one of our purposes is to bring back the lost sheep of the House of Israel (not the House of Judah but they too shall come)....
Do the word study of Jacob’s prophecy over Ephraim as I have done! The word “melo” is translated by the Greek word “pleroma” in the Septuagint. This is the exact word Paul uses in Roman’s 11, and therefore the connection is clear. The word means fullness, not “a multitude.”
The phrase is found in Genesis 48:19.
Melo’ #H4393: is a masculine noun which literally means “fullness” or “that which fills” but it can also mean completeness (the verb form ‘mala’ means to accomplish or to be amassed together)
Ha’ is the standard definite article which is usually interpreted ‘the’, ‘of the’, or ‘a’! For example: Baruch ’Ha’Shem Adonai Y’shua Ha’Moschiach Tzeddkenu means Blessed be the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, our Righteousness. This article, just like in English always refers to the noun which in Hebrew precedes it (which in this Scripture is goyim) which in our English follows it (we say “the gentiles or nations” they say “gentiles the, or nations the”).
A second feature, taken from Genesius Hebrew Grammar, reveals that in Hebrew when the definite article is used it automatically implies we do not know precisely who the person, or which object, being described is! It would be like if I said “Go and pick the apple of your choice from my orchard.” I couldn’t possibly know which apple you would pick but that you would pick one would be without doubt. So when we say Ha’Shem (the Name) we cannot be sure which Name is being referred to. In this case the Tetragrammaton (YHVH) may be the name, but exactly how is it correctly pronounced…no one really knows!
Now as for ‘Goyim’ (#H1471), it is the plural of “goy” which refers to all non-Hebrews. Though as “people” it may include the physical descendants of Abraham, it more so refers to the heathen who knew not God. In all fairness it can be used to refer to “the nations” but again meaning the world apart from Jacob’s tribes (hence Goyim). The cognate root of the word is “ga-ah’ which means to have grown up, to be exalted in triumph, or to be lifted.
The Israelites (also called the children or House of Israel and also "Ephraim" in the prophets) as a result of the Assyrian captivity were sown in among the gentiles.
Hosea 7:8a - Ephraim, he hath mixed himself among the people (the goyim)…
Hosea 8:8 - Israel is swallowed up: now shall they be among the Gentiles as a vessel wherein is no pleasure.
Hosea 9:17 - My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.
Paul’s phrase “pleroma ton ethon”, in the Greek, spoke directly to the learned Rabbis of the diaspora and is a reference to the LXX translation of Genesis 48:19 which in classical Greek says ‘plethos ethnon’.
In effect, the goyim church is bringing Jacob (Israel) back on its shoulders....one of our purposes is to bring back the lost sheep of the House of Israel (not the House of Judah but they too shall come)....
You know one could use "legalism" in conflict with what come by nature and see some truth in what is the "divine nature". Now we as creatures of the fall are in conflict with the laws of God, and counter to what some believe about their own righteousness, we have no ability of our self to fulfill that which conforms to Gods nature. As Paul said "we where by nature children of wrath". So the law laid upon us becomes a "yoke" that we nor any man, save Christ can or could keep. It gives power to the rebellious nature in our flesh (the strength of sin is the law). Thus we have the power of the Cross, whereby we might put to death this "snake" of sin within us. It is a real power to those who go to His Cross, it is not a teaching it is a place in truth that all believers, who seek to be conformed to His Image, must go.
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Interesting bro Paul, not sure how it relates to the discussion so far? I have some years of study in the Greek, but like to keep things on a simple level, so that I might teach those who I love, with the love of Christ. I hope you are one of the good teachers, who cares more that Gods people are being fed, than the feeding of ones own ego?
actually he did not ..
he broke the law of Moses' as He was replacing it with a new covenant ..
however not one the jot and tittle of the Law of Moses, He said would not end until heaven and earth pass away ..
I understand it quite well ..
and is there another way then honest for a Christian to behave and still use that name ???
I challenge the definition as a negative thing because of the ambiguity ..
what I don't want to see, is it used as such ..
and his commandments are not burdensome ..
I gladly submit to these requirements ..
God Bless you
Now my friend, you have just entered into a very sad position, in your attempt to debate an issue you do not yet fully understand, you have made a charge against Christ that is untrue. He never "broke" the law of Moses. heresy! He as a sinless Sacrifice, took our sin upon Himself.
not sure of your question?
What are the "commandments" that John was speaking of? One cannot just take scripture out of context of the gospel and apply to a scripture that which it is not saying.
1Jo 3:23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
This is not hard to understand, only when we love as Christ loves us, do we fulfill the commandments of God. Not by looking to the any part of the written code or the 10 commandments, but dying to those and looking to Christ alone as our righteousness.
Rom 11:24
For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
God does the grafting ..
because He will fulfill his promise to them ..
Rom 11:28
From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
Rom 11:29
for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
it was a reply to your question/statement ..
I hope you are willing to have an honest discussion?
Oh, it should not be, but sadly it very often is.
perhaps you are taking it out of context ..
what commandments do you think Jesus meant talking to the Jews that they would understand ???
Mat 19:17
And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Of course He was bringing the standard to its full point, so that all would convicted as sinners in need of His grace. That's the purpose of the law, to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by faith in Him. This is "basic" New Testament understanding. AND AGAIN ONLY LOVE KEEPS THE LAW. One must first receive by faith the Love of God and walk in that love to fulfill what Christ is saying in this passage.
Have you read the New Testament? Or did you stop at this scripture? It is all explained that the purpose of the law was to bring all men to Christ.
Ga 3:19 ¶ Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
true enough .. but nonetheless what was already written is the means ..
Jesus sacrifice holds no aid to those who do not ..
because you are simply a hearer of the word and not a doer of the word ..
lets keep this light, as I do not really feel your understanding differs much ..
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