The Doctrine of "Free Will"

[Musicmaster]

Just some thoughts in relation to quotes and questions I've encountered through the yearsfound from various sources.

How can we make our own choices and God still be sovereign and all knowing?

I can answer this with a question: How does God Sovereignly giving to mankind the choice, as to either seek Him or reject Him, violate His Sovereignty? That makes no sense.

How free are we in light of God’s will?

We are totally free to either take up our cross and follow Him, or to walk away in rejection. The WORK of salvation and sanctification are what only the Lord can do.

Can man do everything he chooses?

There's always limits to mankind doing whatever he imagines, but for men to be punished for his rejection of Christ, perfect justice demands that there has to be conscious rejection, a choice made. Otherwise, it is injustice to punish men for something over which they had no choice.

“Free will without God’s grace is not free at all, but is the permanent prisoner and bondslave of evil, since it cannot turn itself to good.” Martin Luther

I'm sure Sproul would smile in agreement with this one, but I don't buy it. Where it is true that God chooses whether to extend His grace to whomever He desires, He also said:

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

“The sin both of men and of angels, was rendered possible by the fact that God gave us free will.” C. S. Lewis

Yes.

“Those who speak on mans free will, and insist upon his inherent power to either accept or reject the Savior, do but voice their ignorance of the real condition of Adam’s fallen children.” A.W. Pink

Not at all. We were ALL born in sin because of what Adam chose to do in spite instructions from the Lord. It was outright disobedience. That still does not take away from the fact that the Lord desires that ALL men come to Him:

1 Timothy 2:1-4
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Sorry, Pink, but you barked up the wrong tree on that one...

“Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven.” Charles Spurgeon

Free will is not claimed to be the mechanism by which anyone is saved or unsaved. Free will is simply about a choice, and then leaving it to the Lord to do as He wills, which is clearly stated by Paul in his first letter to Timothy, as quoted above.

“We believe, that the work of regeneration, conversion, sanctification and faith, is not an act of man’s free will and power, but of the mighty, efficacious and irresistible grace of God.” Charles Spurgeon

Of course not, Charlie. Regeneration and all those other works are strictly from the Hand of God in the lives of those who freely chose to turn their eyes unto the only One who has the Power to save anyone.

“Free will I have often heard of, but I have never seen it. I have always met with will, and plenty of it, but it has either been led captive by sin or held in the blessed bonds of grace.” Charles Spurgeon

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

"It," singular, as you can see, appears to be speaking of Grace given that the Lord chooses upon whom He will pour out His grace, and whom He will not.

Exodus 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Romans 9:15, 18
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. ...
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

“Free-will doctrine-what does it? It magnifies man into God. It declares God’s purposes a nullity, since they cannot be carried out unless men are willing. It makes God’s will a waiting servant to the will of man, and the whole covenant of grace dependent on human action. Denying election on the ground of injustice, it holds God to be a debtor to sinners.” Charles Spurgeon

Charlie had some other meaning for free will than my own understanding. The subjective forcing upon the reality of free will the concept that it somehow makes God a waiting servant, that's the fallacy of 'poisoning the well.' Were he to simply consider the matter with more thoughtfulness and insight, he might have understood that demonizing other's beliefs will not win him the day. Our freedom to choose, be the point God brings someone to, or some having arrived there themselves by way of the conscience the Lord gave to ALL men, we should leave it at that, for if man cannot freely choose, then God is unjust in the punishment of sinners having their sins left upon them.

“Let all the ‘free-will’ in the world do all it can with all its strength; it will never give rise to a single instance of ability to avoid being hardened if God does not give the Spirit, or of meriting mercy if it is left to its own strength.” Martin Luther

Well, Marty, it is that choice of free will the Lord looks upon and makes His own decision as to if that man or woman is genuine in their recognition of their sin, or not. The TULIP model, as it is understood by some, is simply too great funnel into the arena of injustice, and thus making God out to be a monster.

“We are able to persevere only because God works within us, within our free wills. And because God is at work in us, we are certain to persevere. The decrees of God concerning election are immutable. They do not change, because He does not change. All whom He justifies He glorifies. None of the elect has ever been lost.” R. C. Sproul

And yet, we already have the knowledge of God's work in ALL lives, even those who have chosen rejection when we read about the Lord's will that ALL men be saved.

MM

 

[Big Moose]

Great post. A lot of this comes down to the person's understanding of "election", as in God's elect. To me, there are way too many places in the Bible where someone disappoints or disobeys God. They then receive the repercussions of their choices. Does God prod people towards the way they should go? Sure He does. Sometimes it is overwhelming, as in Saul (Paul) on the road to Damascus. But even Judas had Jesus as a guide/teacher, yet made very selfish choices.

 

[Derek88]

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Yes, amen! Let's follow his example here. And this is not easy to do, but the daily crucifixion of our flesh and our free will must be done!

 

[Musicmaster]

It's amazing how anyone could ever assume forced election and irresistible grace, etc., when we can read below where the Lord spoke clearly and without ambiguity, declaring "Whosoever will..." Then in Revelation, it's said to the Tribulation saints (not the Church) that they can "...take the water of life FREELY." [Emphasis mine]

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Yes, TULIP this is indeed a hot debate topic in some circles, but in the end, it's a peripheral issue for an in-house debate. The life of denying self is one must choose for himself, an intentional living out of self-denial in relation to the world around him and the pleasures therein. The text gives no indication to us that only the Lord can empower one to do such. The verb "will" in those verses are defined as this in Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

"1. to be resolved or determined, to purpose: absolutely, 2. equivalent to to desire, to wish, 3. equivalent to to love; followed by an infinitive, to like to do a thing, be fond of doing:, 4. to take delight, have pleasure..."

Those definitions do not possess any inkling of there being a requirement for some elusive empowerment from the Lord to set one's heart upon the act or object to which the verb is tied within the grammatical construct and the context. In other words, it ain't said that the Lord alone gives to one that will. Jesus actually says that the individual makes that decision for himself when He stated "Whosoever." There's no prerequisite clause or precursor that points in any way to some sort of enablement requirement from the Lord. "Whosoever" gives ample indication to the presence of free will.

Please keep in mind that having a will to follow the Lord does not save one. Only the Lord can give that "...water of life..." He has shown time and time again that the Father will draw one to His Son those who make that choice. He is faithful and true beyond measure. It's not about forcing the Lord or the man. It's about relationship.

Amen

MM

 

[Derek88]

Wow....I really needed to hear that my brother, and to show the grace of the Lord, I just finished a preaching sermon, about taking up your cross, then I found what you wrote here! The Lord is so faithful!

 

[BibleLover]

Freewill as a philosophical concept is somewhat like grabbing a greased pig. You have the absolute freedom of will to make any decision you like. However, do you have the means to execute the decisions you make? If not, then in a practical sense, do you really have freewill?

 

[Musicmaster]

Freewill as a philosophical concept is somewhat like grabbing a greased pig. You have the absolute freedom of will to make any decision you like. However, do you have the means to execute the decisions you make? If not, then in a practical sense, do you really have freewill?

Good question. I like that.

So, rather than to poison the well with hypotheticals, I'll begin to address this with some counter questions and thoughts in an attempt to take a stab at the root of, for example, justice versus injustice.

From the perspective of moral accountability, given that Hell is the place where the unregenerate will spend eternity trying to atone for their own sins, how can anyone truly be held accountable for their being in Hell if they did not make any choice that would touch upon the will of the Lord to take their sins upon Himself. 1 Timothy 2:4 clearly states the Lord's will for all, and so with that gift being available to all based upon the Will of the Lord for all, He is ready and willing to save those who respond in the manner He prescribed.

Yes, it is all the Lord's work to save. He alone can save. No amount of will in us can accomplish that imputation of our sins upon Him. He take them upon Himself willingly, according to His own word, but not of those who do not will that their sins be placed upon Him. That is what the Lord sovereignly chose.

1 Corinthians 10:12-13
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

This is powerful stuff from Paul of Tarsus. We also have:

Deuteronomy 30:15-20
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Choose. Yes. That is only yet another example among a number of systematic revelations one may find when studying this topic.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

If man has no choice in the matter, then punishment becomes unjust, and there is no injustice in the Lord. Man can choose, and the Lord has promised His working of salvation in the lives of those who truly seek after Him. That doesn't, as some seem to assume, force the Lord into anything. If I lock myself into a promise to do something for my children when they make the right choice, they are not forcing me. I am abiding by my promise to them. It would be foolish and unjust for me to punish them for something over which they had no choice. Why would anyone think otherwise about God?

We can consider a syllogism along the lines of 'modus tollens':

1. Man's love isn't genuine if not given freely.
2. Man's love is genuine.
3. Conclusion: Man loves freely.

If love is not given freely, then it is artificial...lacking in substance. God commanded, in the two greatest of all commandments, to love Him with our all, and to love others as ourselves. If it's contrived by way of God having to pull the strings of our hearts to love Him and others, what would that make us? The modern, technological equivalent would be robots, automatons. I don't see anything in scripture that hints at the idea that the Lord wants the inferiority of a contrived, forced love for Him and for each other.

I could go on, making even more points, and will do so if there is interest. My typing time is limited this evening, so I will leave this as is for now until someone wishes to see more thoughts on this.

MM

 

[BibleLover]

Remember Pharaoh's actions in dealing with Moses's requests. The first few times Pharoah hardened his own heart against the requests, but after a while, we see that God himself hardened Pharaoh's heart. Yet, Pharoah is responsible for all his actions during the situation. Here we see the contrast and tension between free will and imposed will, and yet, no one would sensibly argue that God in any way dealt unjustly with Pharoah.

 

[Musicmaster]

Remember Pharaoh's actions in dealing with Moses's requests. The first few times Pharoah hardened his own heart against the requests, but after a while, we see that God himself hardened Pharaoh's heart. Yet, Pharoah is responsible for all his actions during the situation. Here we see the contrast and tension between free will and imposed will, and yet, no one would sensibly argue that God in any way dealt unjustly with Pharoah.

It's not really a matter of any injustice in that situation. That text reveals to us that pharaoh hardened his own heart numerous time before the Lord stepped in later and chose to use that hardness by strengthening what was already there, and use it to demonstrate His perfect Power.

So, yes, pharaoh alone is to blame for the hardening that the Lord simply used to bring about the show-down as to who was grater.

Exodus 8:15, 32
15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. ...
32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

Exodus 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

MM

 

[BibleLover]

It's not really a matter of any injustice in that situation. That text reveals to us that pharaoh hardened his own heart numerous time before the Lord stepped in later and chose to use that hardness by strengthening what was already there, and use it to demonstrate His perfect Power.

So, yes, pharaoh alone is to blame for the hardening that the Lord simply used to bring about the show-down as to who was grater.

MM

One takeaway from that situation is the truth that no matter what decisions humans make, all human actions will ultimately result in the glorification of God.

 

[Derek88]

Good question. I like that.

So, rather than to poison the well with hypotheticals, I'll begin to address this with some counter questions and thoughts in an attempt to take a stab at the root of, for example, justice versus injustice.

From the perspective of moral accountability, given that Hell is the place where the unregenerate will spend eternity trying to atone for their own sins, how can anyone truly be held accountable for their being in Hell if they did not make any choice that would touch upon the will of the Lord to take their sins upon Himself. 1 Timothy 2:4 clearly states the Lord's will for all, and so with that gift being available to all based upon the Will of the Lord for all, He is ready and willing to save those who respond in the manner He prescribed.

Yes, it is all the Lord's work to save. He alone can save. No amount of will in us can accomplish that imputation of our sins upon Him. He take them upon Himself willingly, according to His own word, but not of those who do not will that their sins be placed upon Him. That is what the Lord sovereignly chose.

1 Corinthians 10:12-13
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.
13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God [is] faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear [it].

This is powerful stuff from Paul of Tarsus. We also have:

Deuteronomy 30:15-20
15 See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;
16 In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.
17 But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;
18 I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, [and that] ye shall not prolong [your] days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.
19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
20 That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, [and] that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he [is] thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.

Choose. Yes. That is only yet another example among a number of systematic revelations one may find when studying this topic.

Joshua 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

If man has no choice in the matter, then punishment becomes unjust, and there is no injustice in the Lord. Man can choose, and the Lord has promised His working of salvation in the lives of those who truly seek after Him. That doesn't, as some seem to assume, force the Lord into anything. If I lock myself into a promise to do something for my children when they make the right choice, they are not forcing me. I am abiding by my promise to them. It would be foolish and unjust for me to punish them for something over which they had no choice. Why would anyone think otherwise about God?

We can consider a syllogism along the lines of 'modus tollens':

1. Man's love isn't genuine if not given freely.
2. Man's love is genuine.
3. Conclusion: Man loves freely.

If love is not given freely, then it is artificial...lacking in substance. God commanded, in the two greatest of all commandments, to love Him with our all, and to love others as ourselves. If it's contrived by way of God having to pull the strings of our hearts to love Him and others, what would that make us? The modern, technological equivalent would be robots, automatons. I don't see anything in scripture that hints at the idea that the Lord wants the inferiority of a contrived, forced love for Him and for each other.

I could go on, making even more points, and will do so if there is interest. My typing time is limited this evening, so I will leave this as is for now until someone wishes to see more thoughts on this.

MM

19 I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, [that] I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

I totally agree with you MM, about this act of free will, and another thought to ponder is God's Light that comes at an appointed time in His children's fallen nature in who he already know is his, and up until that moment this person's will, has only been to live for the devil, but when that Light of God's presence comes at the right time and shines on that seed gene of God that has been covered in darkness, comes to life, and nothing can keep that from happening.

Then because of God's word that says no one cometh unto me, except the Father draws them, so there is an element of God's intervention that pulls their will in his direction by His Pure and Devine nature and calling!

In other words, when the multitude left the Lord Jesus for His preaching, and then the 120 left also, leaven only the 12 disciples, because of His influence and because he chose them, their free will said( After he asked them would they leave also? ) Lord, where would we go, for you alone have the words of eternal life! There is a much bigger picture here that God sees, be side's ants running around and only choosing by how they feel on any certain day! Because He said, You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you! And this has a very important reason in people's will to choose. Because when God chooses you, this choosing drastically affects your free will in a positive way.

Not saying that we don't still choose the wrong thing's at times, that can lead us to stray, but what does the good shepherd do to a lamb that keeps straying because of its free will? He breaks their free will and its leg, and carry's it upon his shoulders until it learns to say, not my will, but Thine be done. We could say, did the lamb's free will get changed by the discipline and correcting love of the shepherd? Absolutely!

Another

 

[forgiven61]

free will is there even in salvation you can turn away reject God . i did it for years even up to the moment i got saved. i heard God speak to me saying it was now or never..i took the now. one thing God never forces himself . the spirit draws us. honestly i have discussed this many times . being called a straw man and false teacher

 

[Derek88]

Does the whale Free willy have a free will? His will is, and others I imagine at sea world helped and swayed to learn by the fish that they are fed! Sorry, just trying to add a little humor!

free will is there even in salvation you can turn away reject God

But my point in the above statement I made, is far beyond just choosing and rejecting Salvation. Because every will in every son or daughter of God will choose him at a designated time in their life because there will be no child of God in hell, period. Hell was only created for the devil, his angels, and for whom are his children. The very act of them being willing to not choose salvation is proof that they were God's children in the beginning.

Therefore, in one sense, the chosen children of God whose names were on the Lamb's book of life, before the world
began, can ultimately only choose life, because as Jesus said, none of his can be lost! If we think that some of His will be lost and end up in hell, then we are not believing the full gospel. And another very Beautiful type here, is in the Life of Paul, as he say's, I'm a prisoner of Jesus Christ! And he willingly chooses with his own will to stay humble in this prison of Love, because his will is changed by the effects of the Life of Christ inside him, to crucify daily his own will, to do the Father's will!

That's the true life of a disciple believer in Christ, that I want to strive to be like every day! Lord have mercy on me, as I know not what I aught, but am willing, to be made willing, to do your will and not my own! That is my free will choice, that I make today because you live in me, and are leading me, not forcing me, but gently leading me to make the right choices. And if I make to many wrong choices, my free will, and leg is fixing to get broken, but then will be mended to get back to walking on the straight and narrow way!

Why doesn't he correct the free will of those who are not his may I ask? Because they are not His! Pharos's will could never change or be corrected because he was not a child of God. God's election is perfect and beautiful to see throughout all of scripture! As in Jacob have I Loved, and Esau have I hated. And then Jacob's free will to be a deceiver was changed after he wrestled with the Angel! So then what changed Jacobs's will, was it Jacob or God, or both?

So is our free will really free? Or is it fixed? Or is it both? Sorry, brother MM, I didn't mean to write so much on your thread, the word of God is just so inspiring, that I could write another 10 pages, but out of respect to you my brother, I'll end this here! And please forgive me for all my poor grammar, and the simple word's, as I'm just an uneducated farm boy! I so much more enjoy reading how beautiful you guy's write! Shalom

 

[crossnote]

Anyone hear of 'compatibilism' where God is 100% Sovereign and yet does it in a way that keeps man's responsibility 100% intact?

We see the same mysterious union in the incarnation where Jesus is 100% God/100% man...
or in the inspiration of Holy Writ, a product of 100% the Holy Spirit using 100% of a man's nature.

This is a topic of endless discussion due to our finite nature and the putting forth of our finite logic and pet Scriptures. We hate to dwell in those 'in-between' zones.

 

[Musicmaster]

Anyone hear of 'compatibilism' where God is 100% Sovereign and yet does it in a way that keeps man's responsibility 100% intact?

We see the same mysterious union in the incarnation where Jesus is 100% God/100% man...
or in the inspiration of Holy Writ, a product of 100% the Holy Spirit using 100% of a man's nature.

This is a topic of endless discussion due to our finite nature and the putting forth of our finite logic and pet Scriptures. We hate to dwell in those 'in-between' zones.

I'm not sure about the label, but the concept of God being 100% Sovereign and man being responsible for the choice he makes in life, yes. That is the essence of perfect justice. The idea that God chooses who goes to Hell and who to Heaven, that's the very definition of injustice.

I like how Dr. John Barnett put it when using the ballgame comparison. He said that he didn't like not catching his favorite ball team playing while he was on a jetliner flying back home, but he at least had it recording for later viewing. After he landed and got cell service again, his friend called him and told him the score, which he didn't really want to know.

So, he went home and decided to watch the game anyway, even after knowing the outcome. What he surmised is that even though he knew how the game was going to turn out, that had no bearing upon the choices the players made in what he was watching on the screen. Their choices were still intact all the way through the game. Even if he had watched the game before and memorizing every play, watching it again, knowing what was going to happen at each and every juncture, that never took away the choices the players made in their timeline for that game.

For those who disagree with any of this, please feel free to write your thoughts for discussion. This is not a core doctrine within our faith. It's a peripheral issue that has no bearing upon who the Lord is and the salvation He gives.

MM

 

[crossnote]

So, he went home and decided to watch the game anyway, even after knowing the outcome. What he surmised is that even though he knew how the game was going to turn out, that had no bearing upon the choices the players made in what he was watching on the screen. Their choices were still intact all the way through the game. Even if he had watched the game before and memorizing every play, watching it again, knowing what was going to happen at each and every juncture, that never took away the choices the players made in their timeline for that game.

I would hold that God is a bit more than a passive screen viewer, ‘choosing’, ‘predestinating’, ‘drawing’, ‘illuminating’, ‘convicting’, etc. are just some of His 100% sovereign acts.

 

[Musicmaster]

I would hold that God is a bit more than a passive screen viewer, ‘choosing’, ‘predestinating’, ‘drawing’, ‘illuminating’, ‘convicting’, etc. are just some of His 100% sovereign acts.

Good points, CN. What's unfortunate is that the few mentions of predestination throughout scripture have all been blown out of proportion by various sources of teaching. What we CAN glean as a balance to that term is the following:

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

His foreknowledge is the one key element that 'forced salvation' proponents turn a blind eye.

Having been raised Southern Baptist, we were taught that God intentionally created most of mankind to populate Hell based upon His Sovereignty. When I read scripture, I don't see that anywhere apart from a few key words being made into mountains at the exclusion of other balancing modifiers within the context that go mostly ignored. The monster god that intentionally created and creates people to populate Hell for punishment of a choice they were never allowed to make, that just didn't ever make sense to me.

Thanks for the key points.

MM

 

[forgiven61]

as i stated earlier i have had this discussion in carm forum , it did not go well at all.

i as of yet have yet to see where some that are born is automatically from birth destined for hell.. i will go a step farther in that forum they would not say a baby that dies at birth or a young child goes to heaven. many think in that forum salvation is like a 3 step program.
no doubt
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

salvation is freely accepted God speaks we either accept or reject . reformed theology teaches man can not reject God

my testimony of God speaking to me now or never drives them nuts . but i will stand by free will till the Holy Spirit shows me different

 

[forgiven61]

He also predestined

men dont even fully under stand predestination

 

[Musicmaster]

as i stated earlier i have had this discussion in carm forum , it did not go well at all.

i as of yet have yet to see where some that are born is automatically from birth destined for hell.. i will go a step farther in that forum they would not say a baby that dies at birth or a young child goes to heaven. many think in that forum salvation is like a 3 step program.
no doubt
just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

salvation is freely accepted God speaks we either accept or reject . reformed theology teaches man can not reject God

my testimony of God speaking to me now or never drives them nuts . but i will stand by free will till the Holy Spirit shows me different

Well, I don't blame anyone for believing what they were taught by seemingly good authorities in doctrine. This is a topic easily misunderstood and even confused by the plethora of teachings out there. I admire some people wanting to defend the concept of God's total Sovereignty over all, and I fully believe that. What I disagree with are all the elements cast into that ocean. None of them have to this day been able to answer me as to how God sovereignly giving to mankind the choice as to either desiring to follow Christ, or not to follow Christ, somehow allegedly violates His Sovereignty. I can't see that it does. In that, He still exercised His total Sovereignty.

None of the proponents of forced salvation and forced Hell have ever admitted to me that they forced their wives and children to love them, nor that they would ever want to force the love of their spouse and children. Love freely given is true love. It really is just that simple.

Thanks f61 for the thoughts.

MM