The Doctrine of "Free Will"

Musicmaster said:
Just some thoughts in relation to quotes and questions I've encountered through the yearsfound from various sources.

How can we make our own choices and God still be sovereign and all knowing?

I can answer this with a question: How does God Sovereignly giving to mankind the choice, as to either seek Him or reject Him, violate His Sovereignty? That makes no sense.

How free are we in light of God’s will?

We are totally free to either take up our cross and follow Him, or to walk away in rejection. The WORK of salvation and sanctification are what only the Lord can do.

Can man do everything he chooses?

There's always limits to mankind doing whatever he imagines, but for men to be punished for his rejection of Christ, perfect justice demands that there has to be conscious rejection, a choice made. Otherwise, it is injustice to punish men for something over which they had no choice.

“Free will without God’s grace is not free at all, but is the permanent prisoner and bondslave of evil, since it cannot turn itself to good.” Martin Luther

I'm sure Sproul would smile in agreement with this one, but I don't buy it. Where it is true that God chooses whether to extend His grace to whomever He desires, He also said:

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

“The sin both of men and of angels, was rendered possible by the fact that God gave us free will.” C. S. Lewis

Yes.

“Those who speak on mans free will, and insist upon his inherent power to either accept or reject the Savior, do but voice their ignorance of the real condition of Adam’s fallen children.” A.W. Pink

Not at all. We were ALL born in sin because of what Adam chose to do in spite instructions from the Lord. It was outright disobedience. That still does not take away from the fact that the Lord desires that ALL men come to Him:

1 Timothy 2:1-4
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Sorry, Pink, but you barked up the wrong tree on that one...

“Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven.” Charles Spurgeon

Free will is not claimed to be the mechanism by which anyone is saved or unsaved. Free will is simply about a choice, and then leaving it to the Lord to do as He wills, which is clearly stated by Paul in his first letter to Timothy, as quoted above.

“We believe, that the work of regeneration, conversion, sanctification and faith, is not an act of man’s free will and power, but of the mighty, efficacious and irresistible grace of God.” Charles Spurgeon

Of course not, Charlie. Regeneration and all those other works are strictly from the Hand of God in the lives of those who freely chose to turn their eyes unto the only One who has the Power to save anyone.

“Free will I have often heard of, but I have never seen it. I have always met with will, and plenty of it, but it has either been led captive by sin or held in the blessed bonds of grace.” Charles Spurgeon

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

"It," singular, as you can see, appears to be speaking of Grace given that the Lord chooses upon whom He will pour out His grace, and whom He will not.

Exodus 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Romans 9:15, 18
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. ...
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

“Free-will doctrine-what does it? It magnifies man into God. It declares God’s purposes a nullity, since they cannot be carried out unless men are willing. It makes God’s will a waiting servant to the will of man, and the whole covenant of grace dependent on human action. Denying election on the ground of injustice, it holds God to be a debtor to sinners.” Charles Spurgeon

Charlie had some other meaning for free will than my own understanding. The subjective forcing upon the reality of free will the concept that it somehow makes God a waiting servant, that's the fallacy of 'poisoning the well.' Were he to simply consider the matter with more thoughtfulness and insight, he might have understood that demonizing other's beliefs will not win him the day. Our freedom to choose, be the point God brings someone to, or some having arrived there themselves by way of the conscience the Lord gave to ALL men, we should leave it at that, for if man cannot freely choose, then God is unjust in the punishment of sinners having their sins left upon them.

“Let all the ‘free-will’ in the world do all it can with all its strength; it will never give rise to a single instance of ability to avoid being hardened if God does not give the Spirit, or of meriting mercy if it is left to its own strength.” Martin Luther

Well, Marty, it is that choice of free will the Lord looks upon and makes His own decision as to if that man or woman is genuine in their recognition of their sin, or not. The TULIP model, as it is understood by some, is simply too great funnel into the arena of injustice, and thus making God out to be a monster.

“We are able to persevere only because God works within us, within our free wills. And because God is at work in us, we are certain to persevere. The decrees of God concerning election are immutable. They do not change, because He does not change. All whom He justifies He glorifies. None of the elect has ever been lost.” R. C. Sproul

And yet, we already have the knowledge of God's work in ALL lives, even those who have chosen rejection when we read about the Lord's will that ALL men be saved.

MM
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It is a real blessing to read your comments and it makes me think that maybe you were sitting in the back of the same classroom I was in!!!!
 
Musicmaster said:
Good points, CN. What's unfortunate is that the few mentions of predestination throughout scripture have all been blown out of proportion by various sources of teaching. What we CAN glean as a balance to that term is the following:

Romans 8:29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

His foreknowledge is the one key element that 'forced salvation' proponents turn a blind eye.

Having been raised Southern Baptist, we were taught that God intentionally created most of mankind to populate Hell based upon His Sovereignty. When I read scripture, I don't see that anywhere apart from a few key words being made into mountains at the exclusion of other balancing modifiers within the context that go mostly ignored. The monster god that intentionally created and creates people to populate Hell for punishment of a choice they were never allowed to make, that just didn't ever make sense to me.

Thanks for the key points.

MM
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Comment was.........
"Having been raised Southern Baptist, we were taught that God intentionally created most of mankind to populate Hell based upon His Sovereignty"

Being a SB myself.........may I say to you that in 50 years of ministry, I have never heard that said.
Now....that does not mean YOU were not told that, only that I do not know that to be a SB teaching as it probably was a PERSONAL teaching of one of your pastors.

And you are correct and I agree...........
"The monster god that intentionally created and creates people to populate Hell for punishment of a choice they were never allowed to make, that just didn't ever make sense to me." Me either!!!!!!
 
Major said:
Comment was.........
"Having been raised Southern Baptist, we were taught that God intentionally created most of mankind to populate Hell based upon His Sovereignty"

Being a SB myself.........may I say to you that in 50 years of ministry, I have never heard that said.
Now....that does not mean YOU were not told that, only that I do not know that to be a SB teaching as it probably was a PERSONAL teaching of one of your pastors.

And you are correct and I agree...........
"The monster god that intentionally created and creates people to populate Hell for punishment of a choice they were never allowed to make, that just didn't ever make sense to me." Me either!!!!!!
Click to expand...

The minister we had was a very staunch and a hell-fire-preaching individual, and even vindictive about some things. You may be correct about the SBC itself. I don't know if the SBC ever really had a position on that, but a young fella who just graduated from a SB college in another state is now teaching along the line for forced-Hell. I suspect, however, that his position on that is more a matter of his interpretation of what he was taught than a representation in totality of what his instructors were saying.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
The minister we had was a very staunch and a hell-fire-preaching individual, and even vindictive about some things. You may be correct about the SBC itself. I don't know if the SBC ever really had a position on that, but a young fella who just graduated from a SB college in another state is now teaching along the line for forced-Hell. I suspect, however, that his position on that is more a matter of his interpretation of what he was taught than a representation in totality of what his instructors were saying.

MM
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That would be my guess as well.

Honestly....I have never heard that kind of false teaching. I was at two seminaries, one was SBS affiliated, and one was not and I never heard of that teaching.
 
forgiven61 said:
what is forced hell ? i am not southern Baptist i was ordained general but my doctrine is word of God not Baptist.

i have never heard of this forced hell
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f61, there are those out there who believe that God intentionally created most of humanity to populate Hell, and others for salvation He chose in advance.

Now please keep in mind that it doesn't matter one bit what anyone believes about this. It's a peripheral issue to the faith. However, I'm always in favor of studying the word of God in order to learn all we can about His ways and His will, and by doing that, we draw closer to Him in getting to know the REAL God portrayed in the Bible rather than one invented by mere men.

So, the idea that God created most to go to Hell is the very definition of injustice in relation to God's perfect justice that does not at all point to His being a God who punishes people for a choice they were never able to make.

Does that answer your question?

Let me know.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Just some thoughts in relation to quotes and questions I've encountered through the yearsfound from various sources.

How can we make our own choices and God still be sovereign and all knowing?

I can answer this with a question: How does God Sovereignly giving to mankind the choice, as to either seek Him or reject Him, violate His Sovereignty? That makes no sense.

How free are we in light of God’s will?

We are totally free to either take up our cross and follow Him, or to walk away in rejection. The WORK of salvation and sanctification are what only the Lord can do.

Can man do everything he chooses?

There's always limits to mankind doing whatever he imagines, but for men to be punished for his rejection of Christ, perfect justice demands that there has to be conscious rejection, a choice made. Otherwise, it is injustice to punish men for something over which they had no choice.

“Free will without God’s grace is not free at all, but is the permanent prisoner and bondslave of evil, since it cannot turn itself to good.” Martin Luther

I'm sure Sproul would smile in agreement with this one, but I don't buy it. Where it is true that God chooses whether to extend His grace to whomever He desires, He also said:

Mark 8:34 And when he had called the people [unto him] with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

“The sin both of men and of angels, was rendered possible by the fact that God gave us free will.” C. S. Lewis

Yes.

“Those who speak on mans free will, and insist upon his inherent power to either accept or reject the Savior, do but voice their ignorance of the real condition of Adam’s fallen children.” A.W. Pink

Not at all. We were ALL born in sin because of what Adam chose to do in spite instructions from the Lord. It was outright disobedience. That still does not take away from the fact that the Lord desires that ALL men come to Him:

1 Timothy 2:1-4
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and [for] all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this [is] good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Sorry, Pink, but you barked up the wrong tree on that one...

“Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven.” Charles Spurgeon

Free will is not claimed to be the mechanism by which anyone is saved or unsaved. Free will is simply about a choice, and then leaving it to the Lord to do as He wills, which is clearly stated by Paul in his first letter to Timothy, as quoted above.

“We believe, that the work of regeneration, conversion, sanctification and faith, is not an act of man’s free will and power, but of the mighty, efficacious and irresistible grace of God.” Charles Spurgeon

Of course not, Charlie. Regeneration and all those other works are strictly from the Hand of God in the lives of those who freely chose to turn their eyes unto the only One who has the Power to save anyone.

“Free will I have often heard of, but I have never seen it. I have always met with will, and plenty of it, but it has either been led captive by sin or held in the blessed bonds of grace.” Charles Spurgeon

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

"It," singular, as you can see, appears to be speaking of Grace given that the Lord chooses upon whom He will pour out His grace, and whom He will not.

Exodus 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Romans 9:15, 18
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. ...
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth.

“Free-will doctrine-what does it? It magnifies man into God. It declares God’s purposes a nullity, since they cannot be carried out unless men are willing. It makes God’s will a waiting servant to the will of man, and the whole covenant of grace dependent on human action. Denying election on the ground of injustice, it holds God to be a debtor to sinners.” Charles Spurgeon

Charlie had some other meaning for free will than my own understanding. The subjective forcing upon the reality of free will the concept that it somehow makes God a waiting servant, that's the fallacy of 'poisoning the well.' Were he to simply consider the matter with more thoughtfulness and insight, he might have understood that demonizing other's beliefs will not win him the day. Our freedom to choose, be the point God brings someone to, or some having arrived there themselves by way of the conscience the Lord gave to ALL men, we should leave it at that, for if man cannot freely choose, then God is unjust in the punishment of sinners having their sins left upon them.

“Let all the ‘free-will’ in the world do all it can with all its strength; it will never give rise to a single instance of ability to avoid being hardened if God does not give the Spirit, or of meriting mercy if it is left to its own strength.” Martin Luther

Well, Marty, it is that choice of free will the Lord looks upon and makes His own decision as to if that man or woman is genuine in their recognition of their sin, or not. The TULIP model, as it is understood by some, is simply too great funnel into the arena of injustice, and thus making God out to be a monster.

“We are able to persevere only because God works within us, within our free wills. And because God is at work in us, we are certain to persevere. The decrees of God concerning election are immutable. They do not change, because He does not change. All whom He justifies He glorifies. None of the elect has ever been lost.” R. C. Sproul

And yet, we already have the knowledge of God's work in ALL lives, even those who have chosen rejection when we read about the Lord's will that ALL men be saved.

MM
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BibleLover said:
Freewill as a philosophical concept is somewhat like grabbing a greased pig. You have the absolute freedom of will to make any decision you like. However, do you have the means to execute the decisions you make? If not, then in a practical sense, do you really have freewill?
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Hello brothers and sisters;

I want to share my thought with a question.

After reading Musicmaster's thread and reading our brother's and sister's posts gave me food for thought.

When someone posts their denomination or doctrine such as Southern Baptist, General Baptist, Independent, students of Dr. John Barnett and John MacArthur, a Calvinist, etc...

Could it be possible that we will approach Musicmasters' thread (thoughts and questions) with a different interpretation based on our denomination or taught doctrine, instead of a basic understanding of the Bible?

The Doctrine of "Free Will" could be addressed the same way. After reading BibleLover's post I understand what he is conveying, but if my belief system (denomination or taught doctrine in Christ) is not the same as BibleLover, forgiven or MM, I may have a different understanding of free will based on my application of God's Word.

Or, if what MM or BibleLover present can be met with a basic understanding and application of the Scripture, then why should our denomination, taught doctrine or opinion make a difference?

Let's discuss this openly, and again, it's just a question that hit me from reading everyone's posts.

God bless you, brothers and sisters, and your families.
 
Musicmaster said:
f61, there are those out there who believe that God intentionally created most of humanity to populate Hell, and others for salvation He chose in advance.
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ok that is more less what Calvinist teach thats why they will never say a young child or infant goes to heaven . i use to discuss if one could say that in carm.. they got pretty ugly if you challenged them. i use get infractions i called it how i saw it. they use term straw man answer and false teacher . some southern baptist hold to reformed theology
 
crossnote said:
Musicmaster, I would like to piggy back on forgiven61 question and ask "What do you mean when you say 'forced election' (post #4)?
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Forced election may have different meanings to different people, but it is akin to "Irresistible grace," which means that those God chose for salvation are locked into salvation without the individual ever having consciously chosen to follow Christ. It's an odd belief that I have never been able to find in scripture without making inferences that just don't seem to fit in with a systematic study of the topic.

Hope that helps.

MM
 
Well, I wanted to stay away from calling it a "Calvinist" belief because Calvin himself didn't even believe what some extremists are pushing in his name.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
Well, I wanted to stay away from calling it a "Calvinist" belief because Calvin himself didn't even believe what some extremists are pushing in his name.

MM
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i dont know a lot about the reformed / Calvinism but my understanding there is a variety i know a guy who is reformed presbertyn and some Pentecostals. i like MacArthur at times he is only one right
 
Musicmaster said:
Forced election may have different meanings to different people, but it is akin to "Irresistible grace," which means that those God chose for salvation are locked into salvation without the individual ever having consciously chosen to follow Christ. It's an odd belief that I have never been able to find in scripture without making inferences that just don't seem to fit in with a systematic study of the topic.

Hope that helps.

MM
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You mean like a person is chosen, ends up in heaven without ever consciously acknowledging Christ?
That would be bizarre, but I don't believe I ever bumped into such or that it is even Scriptural.
 
Musicmaster said:
Forced election may have different meanings to different people, but it is akin to "Irresistible grace," which means that those God chose for salvation are locked into salvation without the individual ever having consciously chosen to follow Christ. It's an odd belief that I have never been able to find in scripture without making inferences that just don't seem to fit in with a systematic study of the topic.

Hope that helps.

MM
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I do not think you need me to have any imput MM, but for others ............
The biblical doctrine of election teaches that God chooses to save some, and, by necessity, if He does not choose everyone, then there are some who are passed over. Those whom He has chosen to save are referred to as “The Elect Elect” = Mark 13:20.

The terms election and predestination are used interchangeably, both referring to God’s gracious decree whereby he chooses some for eternal life.

Now this is a subject that is forbidden by our rules. May I also say that it is maybe, the doctrine that almost NO-One understands or at least will admitt that they dont.

What we can do is look at the actual Scriptures in Ephesians 1:4-6 that say......
“For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.”

Now for the FUN part............
God’s election has nothing to do with what the elect would or would not do. or better said, Predestination DOES NOT EFFECT MAN'S FREE WILL.

God did not choose everyone. If He had, then everyone would come to faith in Christ. He chose some, and He left others to their own desires. Left to ourselves, all of us would continue in our rebellion and reject Christ. God chose to pursue some, convict them of their need, and lead them to faith. It is because of God’s choice that anyone comes to faith in Christ.

To validate that, Jesus said in John 6:44......
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day”.

Now for the TOUGH part............This is a tough truth to get our minds around. We are tempted to think that we are more just and gracious than God and that He should have chosen everyone. We need to reject that temptation. Who do YOU know who is in a place to judge God!

It is not as though some are desperately crying out to Him for salvation and He rejects them because He has not chosen them. Those whom God does not choose continue doing exactly what they want—they rebel against God and try to stay as far away from Him as possible = FREEDOM OF CHOICE! He simply allows them to continue on the path they have freely and willfully chosen.

Most of the Christians I know who recoil and argue Election do so due to NOT UNDERSTANDING the doctrine of election the first time they hear it. But, upon further reflection, and they sit and think about it, most believers will admit that God was at work in their lives, drawing them to Himself long before they were even aware of it. They will recognize that, if He had not intervened, they would have continued in unbelief. The hand of God, working in big ways and little ways, becomes more evident in hindsight and just because we may not understand it....does not in any take away from what it actually is.

Now the mods may delete this and stop the way the thread is going and that is OK with me.
 
crossnote said:
You mean like a person is chosen, ends up in heaven without ever consciously acknowledging Christ?
That would be bizarre, but I don't believe I ever bumped into such or that it is even Scriptural.
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I am pretty sure that that phrase "Forced Election" is not a Bible Phrase or term but rather a personal one.

Election is actually Predestination which is simply God calling certain individuals.

Here is fact............. We should only believe it if you see it taught in the Bible and if it does not undermine other true and important things taught about God in the Bible!!!

Another fact............God never, never sends, never will send anyone to hell. No one will ever be in hell who does not deserve to be there. Everyone in hell today is because of their COICES in life!
 
forgiven61 said:
i have issues with this not towards you.. but every time a deep subject comes up.. the panic button is hit.. thread closes or gets removed.. its open discussion. its how we learn
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No argument from me. However mu brother.........our Moderators KNOW that this is one of those HOT buttons that some people want to argue about without Learning.

They make it unreproachable because they already know that they will have to tell someone to .........."CALM DOWN or MOVE ON"!
 
forgiven61 said:
http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/pamphlet_41.html that is as far as i go i had go to history find it.... but i still stand by my remarks
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It is not about standing for or against my friend.......only that it needs to be posted as a source for copy right laws.

You see, now we can read that and understand the reason behind it. It appears that it is a Reformed Protestant church.
Am not rejecting Calvinism completely, I am probably a 4.5 TUPIP myself.

No matter how we cut it, Calvinism doesn't believe in salvation by faith. They believe in salvation by election. and I just can not accept that. But that is me and you are free to accept it.
 
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