The Doctrine Of Sinless Perfection

Feb 13, 2014
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Must I always fetch your folks water!!!! Wait, never mind that cost Moses............... I am surprised nobody knows what that is, because Jesus is our example of perfection.

Edit:

Make me pull up E-Sword.............

Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Jesus was not perfect in favour with God, He later said my Father Hears me because I always do what he says do. He increased in Wisdom and Stature with God and man.

There was a reason he was led out into the wilderness to be tempted. He had to pass the test, and increased more and more.

This tells us the sin problem is taken care of, but we need to increase in these areas just Like He did. None of us can start out above what He started, but we follow what He did.

This increase in God, and Growing "IN" Christ is the perfection the Word talks about. To keep our tongue from offending (In a wrong way James)
You MichaelH wrote, "He never sinned, but he was not perfect starting out."

I then showed the scripture for that, "For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things, and through whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to perfect the author of their salvation through sufferings" (Hebrews 2:10).

So what are you talking about?
 
Feb 13, 2014
834
181
43
56
Must I always fetch your folks water!!!! Wait, never mind that cost Moses............... I am surprised nobody knows what that is, because Jesus is our example of perfection.

Edit:

Make me pull up E-Sword.............

Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.

Jesus was not perfect in favour with God, He later said my Father Hears me because I always do what he says do. He increased in Wisdom and Stature with God and man.

There was a reason he was led out into the wilderness to be tempted. He had to pass the test, and increased more and more.

This tells us the sin problem is taken care of, but we need to increase in these areas just Like He did. None of us can start out above what He started, but we follow what He did.

This increase in God, and Growing "IN" Christ is the perfection the Word talks about. To keep our tongue from offending (In a wrong way James)
And no. You don't need to fetch me any water!!!
Make yourself clear.
 

MichaelH

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Nov 27, 2013
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I now see the edit with the verse added.
Sorry about that, daughter wanted breakfast, and wife talking.

yes, that verse shows what Jesus did not start out perfect in. He never sinned, but it's the same things we also work on from faith to faith, from one glory to the next. I believe the sin part is fixed and we work on the mind renewal.

Glad that is sorted. My bad.
 
Must I always fetch your folks water!!!! Wait, never mind that cost Moses............... I am surprised nobody knows what that is, because Jesus is our example of perfection.
Edit:
Make me pull up E-Sword.............
Luk 2:52 And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.
Jesus was not perfect in favour with God, He later said my Father Hears me because I always do what he says do. He increased in Wisdom and Stature with God and man.
There was a reason he was led out into the wilderness to be tempted. He had to pass the test, and increased more and more.
This tells us the sin problem is taken care of, but we need to increase in these areas just Like He did. None of us can start out above what He started, but we follow what He did.
This increase in God, and Growing "IN" Christ is the perfection the Word talks about. To keep our tongue from offending (In a wrong way James)
_____________________________________

Very good, Beloved. (And everyone now say: "I KNEW THAT!)
 
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Sep 3, 2009
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Is it Biblical? Can it be achieved? Has anyone ever achieved it other than Jesus? Where did it come from?

Discuss?

brother Paul
It is not Biblical.

Years ago John Wesley, one of the founders of the Holiness Movement, introduced into the Christian community the idea that Christian perfection can be achieved in this life through a second work of grace - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Although his "Christian perfection" idea does excuse sins of ignorance. And thus many Holiness types have to maintain an ignorance of their own sinfulness in order to maintain their testimony that they have achieved such a state of perfection
 
It is not Biblical.

Years ago John Wesley, one of the founders of the Holiness Movement, introduced into the Christian community the idea that Christian perfection can be achieved in this life through a second work of grace - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Although his "Christian perfection" idea does excuse sins of ignorance. And thus many Holiness types have to maintain an ignorance of their own sinfulness in order to maintain their testimony that they have achieved such a state of perfection
___________________________________________________

I went to the internet (another "forum?") to find out who was John Wesley Mr. Wesley founded the Methodist Church. I understand he also prayed for the sick: and the Lord used him. I also understand that he did not remain in his calling. He reverted into denominationalism. And so we have the Methodist Church without the witness of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not a "second work of grace"; it is proof that grace is active in the believer. A person who does not have the Holy Spirit abiding (not "by faith" only), cannot live to his/her potential: or even love to his/her potential!
 
Sep 2, 2013
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It is not Biblical.

Years ago John Wesley, one of the founders of the Holiness Movement, introduced into the Christian community the idea that Christian perfection can be achieved in this life through a second work of grace - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. Although his "Christian perfection" idea does excuse sins of ignorance. And thus many Holiness types have to maintain an ignorance of their own sinfulness in order to maintain their testimony that they have achieved such a state of perfection
I have met these people, and they are not ignorant of their sin, they are blind to their sin. (hypocrisy) Just as the Pharisees was blind to their own sin. Legalism blinds all who are under its yoke. They are some of the most ungodly people I have ever met, although they have that outward appearance (a form of godliness) their hearts are cold and hard as stone. Love is the fulfillment of all that God demands from the believer In Christ, these people are far from godly.

a pit of vipers and white washed tombs, are the fruit of this so-called "holiness" movement.
 
Sep 3, 2009
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___________________________________________________

I went to the internet (another "forum?") to find out who was John Wesley Mr. Wesley founded the Methodist Church. I understand he also prayed for the sick: and the Lord used him. I also understand that he did not remain in his calling. He reverted into denominationalism. And so we have the Methodist Church without the witness of the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit is not a "second work of grace"; it is proof that grace is active in the believer. A person who does not have the Holy Spirit abiding (not "by faith" only), cannot live to his/her potential: or even love to his/her potential!
I would agree with that "Candy man" as I am sure you would also agree that it is because of the Holy Spirit being God and the 3rd Person of the Trinity!
 
Apr 22, 2013
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Tahiti
Personally, I believe the most important aspect of John Wesley's life is not what he founded or wrote, what we need to pay the most attention to, is the experience of/in his life, ...Wesley learned to read and write by the time he could walk, memorized a large part of the New Testament at a young age, also was proficient in Greek and Latin, graduated with a Masters of Arts degree from Oxford, went to Savanna Georgia to pastor a church, returned to England because of personal problems, while on the journey to America he had met some missionaries of the Monrovian Brotherhood and he liked their style of open air evangelizing so much he joined with them in England and began open air evangelizing himself, one of his sermons was so powerful, ...he was saved, born again from his own preaching!

Blessings,

Gene
 
Sep 2, 2013
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Personally, I believe the most important aspect of John Wesley's life is not what he founded or wrote, what we need to pay the most attention to, is the experience of/in his life, ...Wesley learned to read and write by the time he could walk, memorized a large part of the New Testament at a young age, also was proficient in Greek and Latin, graduated with a Masters of Arts degree from Oxford, went to Savanna Georgia to pastor a church, returned to England because of personal problems, while on the journey to America he had met some missionaries of the Monrovian Brotherhood and he liked their style of open air evangelizing so much he joined with them in England and began open air evangelizing himself, one of his sermons was so powerful, ...he was saved, born again from his own preaching!

Blessings,

Gene
I guess you don't have to believe what you preach to others? I have some information on Wesley and think I have one of his books? I would not want to offend you Bro Gene, I have many friends from the Methodist groups and know many as loving and sincere believers. But this holiness group that was formed around some of his teachings is just wrong at heart. I hope that the church would be delivered from the influence of such groups and the great hypocrisy that Christ does hate.
 
Apr 22, 2013
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Tahiti
I'm kinda confused here mitspa, I was saved in a Nazarene church that had a Methodist pastor, so I heard lots of stories about Wesley, ...my point was we can know the Bible forward and back, be proficient in the Ancient languages, even gone to school to learn theology and be in the ministry and think/believe we are doing the Lord's work, ...and not be born again!

In my humble opinion the most important thing we can learn from the life of John Wesley is,

examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith, prove your own selves. Do you not know your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are reprobates? 2 Cor 13:5

Blessings,

Gene
 
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I'm kinda confused here mitspa, I was saved in a Nazarene church that had a Methodist pastor, so I heard lots of stories about Wesley, ...my point was we can know the Bible forward and back, be proficient in the Ancient languages, even gone to school to learn theology and be in the ministry and think/believe we are doing the Lord's work, ...and not be born again!

In my humble opinion the most important thing we can learn from the life of John Wesley is,

examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith, prove your own selves. Do you not know your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are reprobates? 2 Cor 13:5

Blessings,

Gene
Amen...I know Seminary graduates who are collar wearing full time (two Lutheran, a Roman Catholic, and at least two Episcopal) priests, who do not even believe basic Christian doctrines are true. They believe Jesus was just a man His despairing followers deified, one believes so strongly in reincarnation, another that is okay to worship the goddess within, and of course everyone knows (or so I am told) that nobody really believes a virgin can conceive and bear a child without a lover, and oh yes at least one Ph.D. scholar who would tell you the reason the tomb was empty is because He was never buried, probably cast aside in a shallow grave and eaten by wild dogs. But they at least believe He appeared unto them, but that does not mean He physically rose from the dead. So I say, the Son of Sam's dog wore a collar also and she also was not of God...

On the other hand I do know some sincerely Christian, God loving, word centered, Priests as well as Nazarenes....so let us not judge the bushel by a few apples. Either Christ is in a person or they are not God's child (thus not saved) even if they repeated a magical formula and took a bath. Faith is a matter of the heart, not the head.

In His love

brother Paul
 
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Feb 2, 2014
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Is it Biblical? Can it be achieved? Has anyone ever achieved it other than Jesus? Where did it come from?

Discuss?

brother Paul
It was achieved on the cross. If you're dead there's no law. Paul says not to let our liberty be a cloak for sin. Sin for a real Christian is distasteful and will not give them peace. While we can hurl verses at one another, but unless you're living Romans 7 you'll never understand Romans 8. Once you get there, then you'll understand what it means to be more than overcomers.
 
Apr 22, 2013
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Tahiti
[QUOTEOn the other hand I do know some sincerely Christian, God loving, word centered, Nazarenes....so let us not judge the bushel by a few apples.][/QUOTE]

Yeah bro, that is the point I'm trying to make, there is too much judging of people because they are not in our particular domination, rather than judging ourselves to see if Jesus Christ is living inside of us, ...are we truly being conformed day by day into the image of Jesus Christ, can we see how He has changed/sanctified our lives since we were born again, or are we still the same person? If we can't see a difference and noticeably so the longer we walk with Him, then it's like Paul said, ...our faith is in vain.

There are many who think that because they are working for the Lord or doing greater things than this they are born again, it's not what we do, ..it who we are becoming like, not of bunch of little christs running around preforming miracles, ...but individual children of God who bear His resemblance/character.

Blessings,

Gene
 
Apr 22, 2013
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Tahiti
Is it Biblical? Can it be achieved? Has anyone ever achieved it other than Jesus? Where did it come from?
Is it Biblical? Yes, it's another aspect of the eternal life we received when we were born again.

Can it be achieved? Not this side of Heaven and only for those that have Eternal life.

Has anyone ever achieved it other than Jesus? Nope!

Where did it come from? From God, it's His character.

Blessings,

Gene
 
Yeah bro, that is the point I'm trying to make, there is too much judging of people because they are not in our particular domination, rather than judging ourselves to see if Jesus Christ is living inside of us

Yes...so very important...thanks for pointing that out. I believe it is possible to discuss Biblical positions which differ without judging the person (some however are what they are...like in the case of a Moslem or a wiccan, etc., but between Christians we need to bounce off one another to grow and learn...it may have been part of God's very design for us...I know over the years I have been corrected through the word and have slowly changed over the years (as I am sure you have as well)...

The Lord's peace be unto you JPT
 
Sep 2, 2013
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I'm kinda confused here mitspa, I was saved in a Nazarene church that had a Methodist pastor, so I heard lots of stories about Wesley, ...my point was we can know the Bible forward and back, be proficient in the Ancient languages, even gone to school to learn theology and be in the ministry and think/believe we are doing the Lord's work, ...and not be born again!

In my humble opinion the most important thing we can learn from the life of John Wesley is,

examine yourselves, whether you are in the faith, prove your own selves. Do you not know your own selves, that Jesus Christ is in you, unless you are reprobates? 2 Cor 13:5

Blessings,

Gene
Well my point was he (Wesley) was preaching but did not believe what he was preaching until the point you described.
I know when I say "holiness" groups , that its not really fair to all who have been in these groups and or around them etc.. My first official sermon was in a "holiness" church and a revival. There was a young lady who got "saved" and came back to the rest of the weeks services. She was a smoker and some in that church sent her off the church grounds, across the hwy to smoke. it was really silly and had no concept of Gods love and holiness. Needless to say the young lady never came back and to my knowledge never attempted to continue in a faith that involved a church family. Now a few days later I was preaching again and had been talking to the Lord about how "unholy" this form of "holiness" was. So needless to say I made very clear that they may think that kind of thing is "holy" but that is not true holiness. So I saw this false holiness and I see these people who think holiness is in hair and dress and coffee and tobacco etc... And they are just unloving to the weak, and my soul hates that they cannot see people the way God sees people. They don't know love, like Jesus loved and loves us. It cannot be "holy" it is false.

I would also add a thought about the scripture you quoted, that holiness is not a set of rules for holiness. Paul never did such a thing. He was rebuking two groups in this passage the legalist and those who where in the lust of their flesh. Sexual sins and worldly lust. Paul taught against both, but especially against forms of legalism. "touch not, taste not handle not" Paul taught liberty from carnal rules and above all he taught that "nothing profits but faith working by love" So Wesley may have thought this scripture was important, to which I agree, but it is not the gospel, it is a response and correction to certain behavior in the church.
 
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