The Doctrine Of Sinless Perfection

Apr 22, 2013
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Tahiti
I would also add a thought about the scripture you quoted, that holiness is not a set of rules for holiness. Paul never did such a thing. He was rebuking two groups in this passage the legalist and those who where in the lust of their flesh. Sexual sins and worldly lust. Paul taught against both, but especially against forms of legalism. "touch not, taste not handle not" Paul taught liberty from carnal rules and above all he taught that "nothing profits but faith working by love"
Isn't that what I said?

From my own personal experience of walking with the Lord, the moment I was born again I was cleansed from fornication, from swearing (and I was an expert at it), from the desire of going to bars and drinking (which was usually the cause of the first two mentioned), from a revengeful attitude that stopped just short of murder, but those are all characteristics of the carnal nature and to stop practicing them has nothing to do with holiness and when I was in my infancy with the Lord the subject of Holiness revolted me, I used to think, how dare anyone put rules or regulations on me, but I learned that attitude was again my carnal nature, what changed my walk was what Abdicate said, the Holy Spirit taught me Rom 7, after learning who was vying for control in me I was able to lean on the Holy Spirit for His strength in the struggles with my flesh.

I don't think we will ever understand Holiness until we stop trying to be Holy by what we do, ...again, I believe Holiness in our lives is a result of being conformed into the image of our Lord Jesus Christ who a bruised reed would not break or a smoldering wick would not quench. Then, when we stop trying, we will just naturally exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit: Love, ...manifested in our walks by joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control.

Holiness is not us using the Holy Spirit as a tool to accomplish our own goals or agenda, Holiness is dying to self and allowing the Holy Spirit preform/live the life/character of Jesus Christ through us. John 3:30

Blessings,

Gene
 
Sep 2, 2013
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Isn't that what I said?

From my own personal experience of walking with the Lord, the moment I was born again I was cleansed from fornication, from swearing (and I was an expert at it), from the desire of going to bars and drinking (which was usually the cause of the first two mentioned), from a revengeful attitude that stopped just short of murder, but those are all characteristics of the carnal nature and to stop practicing them has nothing to do with holiness and when I was in my infancy with the Lord the subject of Holiness revolted me, I used to think, how dare anyone put rules or regulations on me, but I learned that attitude was again my carnal nature, what changed my walk was what Abdicate said, the Holy Spirit taught me Rom 7, after learning who was vying for control in me I was able to lean on the Holy Spirit for His strength in the struggles with my flesh.

I don't think we will ever understand Holiness until we stop trying to be Holy by what we do, ...again, I believe Holiness in our lives is a result of being conformed into the image of our Lord Jesus Christ who a bruised reed would not break or a smoldering wick would not quench. Then, when we stop trying, we will just naturally exhibit the fruit of the Holy Spirit: Love, ...manifested in our walks by joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control.

Holiness is not us using the Holy Spirit as a tool to accomplish our own goals or agenda, Holiness is dying to self and allowing the Holy Spirit preform/live the life/character of Jesus Christ through us. John 3:30

Blessings,

Gene
I agree in large part with you brother Gene, but let me just tell you that if you tried to establish that as sound doctrine in some of these (holiness) groups? You would be given the left foot of fellowship. And the freedom from rules and regulations is not a carnal desire it is the evident will of God for the believer. In fact in your own testimony you describe the holiness that came by the power of God, not this subjection to regulations? The desire for liberty is not a "carnal" desire, it is the divine nature of God working in us. To grow-up in the Lord is not to be ruled by regulations but to be ruled by God from the heart. "I will be there God and they will be My people and they will not need any man teach them saying know the Lord" "I will cause them to walk in My ways" The whole great mystery of godliness is that we have all the rules of God "written on our hearts" it is called the divine nature.
 
Sep 2, 2013
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Here is the first set of rules for "holiness" given to the Church by the Holy Spirit, any group that strays into legalism in the name of "holiness" is just in error. And is in complete conflict with the liberty God intended us to walk in.

Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Gee I wonder if the Holy Spirit did not understand "holiness" like some of these groups that make up all these legalistic doctrines of holiness? No doctrines of devils is what the scriptures call this sort of legalism.


1Ti 4:1 ¶ Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3 Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
 
We must remember that only God can actually make something Holy since it is He who must whatever or whoever it is apart for His use and purpose. Yes, there is a personal holiness (sanctification) that comes from yielding to the Spirit and abiding in the word but predominantly it is of God.
 
Jun 30, 2013
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Practical sinless perfection is possible only by being continually led by the Spirit (Galatians 5:16). The problem is that we don't walk in the Spirit 100% of the time. But if victory over sin is possible, it can only happen through the Holy Spirit, not self-effort or self-will.
 
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Practical sinless perfection is possible only by being continually led by the Spirit (Galatians 5:16). The problem is that we don't walk in the Spirit 100% of the time. But if victory over sin is possible, it can only happen through the Holy Spirit, not self-effort or self-will.
_________________________________________________

Good answer. But of course "sinless perfection" is just another word for holiness.
I know that to some people, using the word "holiness" is the same as waving a red flag in front of a bull: but God has called us to holiness. To claim to be Christians sans holiness, is a contradiction in terms. Once more, the Lord God has called us to holiness:
"Wherefore gird up the loins of your mind, be sober, and hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ; as obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: but as He that has called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; because it is written, be ye holy; for I am holy."

God has not called us to holiness because we cannot be holy. That would make God unjust: and He could not then be God! If the Lord God has called us to holiness, it is because he has empowered us to be holy: "...for I am holy...". When God called us to repentance, he offered us the power to believe and obey. Don't you know that he offered that same power to Cain even before
Cain killed Abel: "If you do well, shall you not be accepted? But Cain did not believe, just as many today do not believe. And why do people not believe? Because there are false gospels that are being preached, in the name of love.
God IS love: but He is also holy. If we can love, why then can we not be holy? Or what is more difficult: to love and pray for your enemy, or to be holy?

Church, learn the Gospel.
 
Feb 2, 2014
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www.abdicate.net
Who the heck is Wesley?
John Wesley was an ordained Anglican minister who discovered that even though he was a minister, was not saved. After getting saved, he preached to the people wherever they were because the Anglicans kicked him out of the order. His "method" of preaching in open fields and parks founded the Methodist movement. He literally preached throughout Great Britain on horseback!

Charles Finney was the same... he was an ordained minister who discovered he wasn't saved. He got saved and began preaching the Gospel and was a Presbyterian who was part of the Second Great Awakening in America.
 
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Sep 2, 2013
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Who the heck is Wesley?
You ever heard of the Methodist? He was the principle teacher and one could say founder of that denom. And their is some other groups established from his teachings that use his name. I would also add that he came up with doctrines of holiness, from which much error has been brought into the truth of the gospel. I have often wondered at these things and could see a process toward the truth in that he taught the righteousness of faith apart from the law, but he just replaced the law with these concepts and ideas of holiness. Kinda like your not under the law, but here is a bunch of other religious works whereby one can boast in their own holiness.
The people have itching ears (fleshy ears) and they must have that which brings glory to their flesh. The flesh loves to have itself approved and will always seek the glory that belongs to God alone.
 
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Jan 20, 2014
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John Wesley was an ordained Anglican minister who discovered that even though he was a minister, was not saved. After getting saved, he preached to the people wherever they were because the Anglicans kicked him out of the order. His "method" of preaching in open fields and parks founded the Methodist movement. He literally preached throughout Great Britain on horseback!

Charles Finney was the same... he was an ordained minister who discovered he wasn't saved. He got saved and began preaching the Gospel and was a Presbyterian who was part of the Second Great Awakening in America.
Thank you. How interesting!
 
Jan 20, 2014
840
188
43
Gilbert, Arizona
www.facebook.com
You ever heard of the Methodist? He was the principle teacher and one could say founder of that denom. And their is some other groups established from his teachings that use his name. I would also add that he came up with doctrines of holiness, from which much error has been brought into the truth of the gospel. I have often wondered at these things and could see a process toward the truth in that he taught the righteousness of faith apart from the law, but he just replaced the law with these concepts and ideas of holiness. Kinda like your not under the law, but here is a bunch of other religious works whereby one can boast in their own holiness.
The people have itching ears (fleshy ears) and they must have that which brings glory to their flesh. The flesh loves to have itself approved and will always seek the glory that belongs to God alone.
Uh oh.. I need to study up on this. These doctrines are based in fear and sometimes when i start to wonder if they are true I get depressed and spiritually exhausted.
 
Sep 2, 2013
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Uh oh.. I need to study up on this. These doctrines are based in fear and sometimes when i start to wonder if they are true I get depressed and spiritually exhausted.
That's just what the devil wanted when he puts these sorts of doctrines in the minds of religious people, righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit is not found in these sort of doctrines.
When Paul confronted those who brought and added doctrines of works to his gospel, he replied in that he reminded us of the simplicity we have in Christ and as that we have received Him, so walk ye in Him. These complex and legalistic doctrines of "holiness" are just the work of the "ACCUSER" -satan Who knows that "the joy of the Lord is our strength" and works at all times to bring into question the liberty we have in Christ.
 
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot
enter into the kingdom of God.”

Beloved, do not fear: holiness is the work of God in the life of a believer: it is the Holy Spirit abiding within. The Lord Jesus has already done everything needed for our salvation, and He has given us of His Spirit to "...present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service....be you transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God." The Lord Jesus has already redeemed/saved the true man, of the spirit. There is nothing left for Him to do. But we are called to bring our bodies into submission, and this first by the transforming of our minds. And yet it is not ourselves alone: but the Spirit of God abiding in us. For this reason the Lord Jesus
did "...sanctify myself...", that He might present Himself as our sacrifice; and for that cause do we sanctify ourselves (yet not of ourselves, but the Holy Spirit in us) for " ...as many as should be saved."

Beloved the Gospel is the operation of God in the body of His son, Jesus: that he died, was buried, and rose from the dead: even as we are called to repent, be baptized, that "...like as Christ was raised up from the dead...we should walk in newness of life."
Surely Jesus fullfilled the righteousness of the law; it was also that "...the righteousness of the law might be fullfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." And if it is fullfilled in us, then we will also fullfill it in obedience.
Beloved, do not fear: but know and understand that faith and obedience are inseparable.
 
Sep 2, 2013
4,407
778
113
51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot
enter into the kingdom of God.”

Beloved, do not fear: holiness is the work of God in the life of a believer: it is the Holy Spirit abiding within. The Lord Jesus has already done everything needed for our salvation, and He has given us of His Spirit to "...present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service....be you transformed by the renewing of your mind that you may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect will of God." The Lord Jesus has already redeemed/saved the true man, of the spirit. There is nothing left for Him to do. But we are called to bring our bodies into submission, and this first by the transforming of our minds. And yet it is not ourselves alone: but the Spirit of God abiding in us. For this reason the Lord Jesus
did "...sanctify myself...", that He might present Himself as our sacrifice; and for that cause do we sanctify ourselves (yet not of ourselves, but the Holy Spirit in us) for " ...as many as should be saved."

Beloved the Gospel is the operation of God in the body of His son, Jesus: that he died, was buried, and rose from the dead: even as we are called to repent, be baptized, that "...like as Christ was raised up from the dead...we should walk in newness of life."
Surely Jesus fullfilled the righteousness of the law; it was also that "...the righteousness of the law might be fullfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." And if it is fullfilled in us, then we will also fullfill it in obedience.
Beloved, do not fear: but know and understand that faith and obedience are inseparable.
Well I do not "fear" true holiness, I reject the false holiness of the Pharisees and the religious class of today. I reject that which is not of faith, for that which is not of faith is sin. I know true holiness and it is not burdensome nor does it have a heavy yoke. We see that which was required by the Holy Spirit for holiness in this passage:

Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.


And the Lord was "sinless" and His holiness was not that of mans religion, or that of the flesh, but was a "separation" unto the Father through the fire and testing of His faith.

1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
 
That's just what the devil wanted when he puts these sorts of doctrines in the minds of religious people, righteousness peace and joy in the Holy Spirit is not found in these sort of doctrines.
When Paul confronted those who brought and added doctrines of works to his gospel, he replied in that he reminded us of the simplicity we have in Christ and as that we have received Him, so walk ye in Him. These complex and legalistic doctrines of "holiness" are just the work of the "ACCUSER" -satan Who knows that "the joy of the Lord is our strength" and works at all times to bring into question the liberty we have in Christ.
_____________________________________________

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
 
Well I do not "fear" true holiness, I reject the false holiness of the Pharisees and the religious class of today. I reject that which is not of faith, for that which is not of faith is sin. I know true holiness and it is not burdensome nor does it have a heavy yoke. We see that which was required by the Holy Spirit for holiness in this passage:
Ac 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.
And the Lord was "sinless" and His holiness was not that of mans religion, or that of the flesh, but was a "separation" unto the Father through the fire and testing of His faith.
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
______________________________________________

So you believe "true holiness" is found in Acts 15:29 _ That's your definition of holiness. I always thought holiness was obtained only by the Holy Spirit! Well, have your way.

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
 
Sep 2, 2013
4,407
778
113
51
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So you believe "true holiness" is found in Acts 15:29 _ That's your definition of holiness. I always thought holiness was obtained only by the Holy Spirit! Well, have your way.

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
The Holy Spirit spoke that to the Church, and one can see in that passage that all these religious ideas of "holiness" by the flesh are just unbiblical and not the Will of God from the beginning of the Church.