The judgment seat of Christ: Dividing wheat from tares by works.

[Major]

Hello Marilyn,

While I completely agree that Jesus was speaking to His Jewish servants at the time, He was prophesying to His NT servants at His second coming. And the apostles confirm in 1 Thess 5 and 2 Peter 3, that the promise of His coming as a thief in the night, is made to us.

Perhaps you are mistaking the judgment of His NT servants, both Jew and Greek, when He comes again, with giving the land he promised to Abraham the natural Jews alone.





Amen, absolutely not. The body of Christ is already first resurrected at the Lord's return. He comes again as a thief in the night, with His judgment seat to judge His people and nations on earth. The GWT throne judgment in heaven is only for the rest of the dead that live again, after His thousand year reign on earth.


I understand this teaching and once believed it, but so long as the argument from the Scriptures I give are not corrected, then I'm compelled to no longer accept that common tradition.

The problem is that the Lord clearly warns all men and women must be judged by our works, without exception nor exemption. The righteous Lord cannot judge one person guilty for doing wrong, and not another doing the same thing.

Rom 2:3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

Gal 6:7Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Rom 2:19 For there is no respect of persons with God.
The warning inescapably applies to works we do unto life or death. This judgment of works cannot possibly be disannulled or 'sidestepped' based upon what we believe alone. Otherwise, the Lord is an unjust judge playing favorites with His people.

Lev 19:15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.

2Ch 19:7 Wherefore now let the fear of the LORD be upon you; take heed and do it: for there is no iniquity with the LORD our God, nor respect of persons, nor taking of gifts.

1 Peter {1:15} But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; {1:16} Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy. {1:17} And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man’s work, pass the time of your sojourning [here] in fear:

I can only say that 1 Cor 3's 'examination' of our ministerial works, says nothing of the judgment seat of Christ, and the Scriptures of His judgment seat, say nothing of being excluded to ministerial works alone. In 1 Cor 3, the words are plain enough, that they are only our ministerial labors of love. In 2 Cor 5, the words are equally clear that the judgment seat is of all our works, whether good or bad.

And finally, it's only the judgment seat of Christ that comes with the warning of terror and vengeance for doing evil. There is no terror of vengeance pertaining to ministerial errors.

Unless of course, I suppose, our ministering is so bad, that others are destroyed by giving heed to us.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

You said...........
"I understand this teaching and once believed it, but so long as the argument from the Scriptures I give are not corrected, then I'm compelled to no longer accept that common tradition."

Maybe, just maybe that "common tradition" was and is the right understanding.

You said....
"the judgment seat of Christ that comes with the warning of terror and vengeance for doing evil"

What you understand to be terror and vengence, others including the Apostle Paul would understand it to be the sobering truth that all will stand before Christ to give an account, motivating believers to live righteously and share the gospel.
You see my friend, Life is a series of "tests". It is seen from Genesis to the Revelation.
In both the Old and New Testaments, the words translated “test” mean “to prove by trial.” Therefore, when God tests His children, His purpose is to prove that our faith is real. Not that God needs to prove it to Himself since He knows all things, but He is proving to us that our faith is real, that we are truly His children, and that no trial will overcome our faith.

 

[forgiven61]

It is my understanding of the Scriptures that the 2nd Coming of Christ and the Bema Seat Judgment are two seperate events.

they are but at the exact point time we dont know when the judgment takes place

what we do know is in romans 2 :16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[forgiven61]

i realize this entire post is one sided..i hope this dont break the golden cow but knowing the terror of the Lord

11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences. Paul using the word terror there should be some reverence . in following this post i can see good point in all

the words translated “test” mean “to prove by trial.”

very true however to give account of the good and bad, what do we say to the bad ? in the testing by far paul compares us to be a wise master builder. so what will we give account if we have used wood hay or stubble ? claim the 5th ?

 

[Godhelpus]

Again, I find myself in disagreement with you. It is my understanding of the Scriptures that the 2nd Coming of Christ and the Bema Seat Judgment are two seperate events.

Ok. I think I already showed how they are near simultaneous. Of course He must first come again on His Bema Seat, before He can judge His people from it.

Mat 24:30
And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

He first appears in the clouds to be seen of all people on earth, then He immediately resurrects and raptures His people to meet Him in the air.

Over the years there have been several theories put forward on when they awill take place.

#1. Immediately After Death of the believer.
The idea is that when believers die, they are immediately with Christ. Therefore, it could be possible that believers stand before Christ immediately after death and receive their rewards. This option has no biblical support. Therefore, we believe it should be rejected.

Well said. He comes again to earth from heaven, while sitting on His Bema. And so, the judgment of His people is not in heaven. And the rewards in Luke 19 are cities to rule with Him, which cannot be until He begins His 1000 year reign.

The crown of life and righteousness is not for faithful ministerial service, but is the common reward to all faithful believers equally.

Jas 1:3Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Rev 2:10 Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

2Ti 4:6 For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

This would imply receiving rewards at His appearing again.

#2. After The Rapture.
This idea says that the Bema Seat judgment might occur is after the rapture when Christ descends and raptures the church. Then during the tribulation, believers would stand before the Bema Seat judgment in heaven and receive their rewards. Again, This option has no biblical support. Therefore, it should be rejected.

Along with the 'during' tribulation argument is a 'prolonged' first resurrection and rapture period, that extends from the time of His appearing, and continues throughout His tribulation of wrath.

While Rev 6, 14, & 20 certainly speak of believing souls dying in Christ during the tribulation of the beast, I believe the solution is learning the difference between the beast's wrath upon the saints, and then the Lord's wrath upon the beast and his followers.

The Bible teaches two separate kinds of tribulation in this life: that of the godly vs the ungodly.

Jhn 16:33These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Act 14:22Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.

2Th 1:6Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you. And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

All saints are called to endure tribulation and, if necessary, the wrath of man on earth, but only the unbelieving and ungodly endure the righteous indignation and wrath of the Lord. Before He comes again, there will be the greatest worldwide wrath and tribulation of man upon the saints, immediately followed by the greatest tribulation and wrath of God upon the guilty inhabitors, that remain on earth after the rapture.

*****#3. After The Second Coming.
Biblically, this option is the correct one for three reasons and It is the one I accept.
A. Romans 14:10 and 2 Corinthians 5:10 refer to the Bema Seat as a time of rewards.
B. 2 Corinthians 5:10 says that believers’ deeds will evaluated to determine if they are good or worthless.
C. 1 Corinthians 4:5 tells us the Bema Seat judgment will occur after Christ comes.

Exactly. And including 1 Cor 4:5 is spot on:

1Co 4:5
Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.

I had not connected this obvious Bema judgment with the Lord's coming again. Thanks much.

However, are you offering an interpretive translation for 2 Cor 5:10, where the judged works are either good or 'unproductive'? as though being ministerial in nature only? The judged works are good or bad, evil, destructive. (Kakos) And it concludes all deeds we do in our bodies, including ministerial works, not only work of the ministry.

#4. During The Kingdom Age.
This means that the reward ceremony would be a continuing activity throughout the millennial kingdom as people continue to become Christians and some die.
As with option #1 and #2, This option has no biblical support. Therefore, this option should be rejected

This continues the 'prolonged' first resurrection to the end of the millennial, which can be tempting to believe. However, as with all such possible interpretations, there can be one or two verses, that rule them out:

Rev 20:3 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

All those in the first resurrection and rapture of the church, will reign with Christ for the whole thousand years, not any in part.

#5. Before the Great White Throne Judgment
The fifth option is that the Bema Seat judgment will occur after the universe is destroyed and before or after the Great White Throne judgment. The difficulty with this option is that there are no supporting Bible references, whatsoever and IMHO it should be rejected.

This is easily dismissed, since He comes again sitting on His Bema seat. And the rewards are cities to rule with Him on earth. Afterward all the rest of the dead are judged at the GWT.

After the GWT is the new heaven and earth, where nothing is said of judgment of God. And there is only one throne, that is of God and the Lamb.

Biblically, and it should be noted that there’s no specific scripture that reveals the actual time of this event.
But I believe a careful reading of 1 Corth. 3:10-15 and 2 Corth 5:10 leads me to accept the 3rd option above.

True. The Lord's Bema judgment and rapture is at His return, which ends the last days of man's tribulation and wrath upon the saints. Then begins the Lord's tribulation and wrath upon the earth.

 

[Godhelpus]

Actually God`s word tells us that the Lord`s coming as a thief is to the unbelieving world.

`For you (believers) know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night for when THEY (world) say, "Peace and Safety!" then sudden destruction comes upon THEM...` (1 Thess. 5: 2 & 3)

Jesus is speaking to all His servants. And He only comes as as a thief in the night to the unwatchful and unready.

2Pe 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

And here, there is no special distinction, when Peter speaks to us all, including himself, about watching and waiting patiently for our Lord's coming, which is as a thief in the night...

If we are judged by our works then what of the Lord`s sacrifice?

Good question, which is fairly obvious: The only way for any man to have works judged righteous and good by the Lord, is because of His sacrifice to forgive and deliver us from unrighteous and bad works.

Mar 8:34And when he had called the people unto him with his disciples also, he said unto them, Whosoever will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.

Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Without His sacrifice and faith toward God, all of our works remain as filthy rags in His sight. As well as any vain thought, that we are doing Him service by our works.

1 Cor{15:10} But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace [which was bestowed] upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.


Gal 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

 

[Marilyn C]

Jesus is speaking to all His servants. And He only comes as as a thief in the night to the unwatchful and unready.

2Pe 3:8
But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

And here, there is no special distinction, when Peter speaks to us all, including himself, about watching and waiting patiently for our Lord's coming, which is as a thief in the night...

I agree that the Lord will come as a thief in the night to the rebellious BUT NOT for us.

`But you, brethren, are not in darkness that this day should overtake you as a thief.` (1 Thess. 5: 4)

 

[Godhelpus]

Jesus died to take away our sins, He has removed them as far as the east is from the west. GOD said He will remember them no more. Since all this is true, what evil works are there to be judged?

I believe the teaching of Scripture that only our past sins are forgiven and forgotten. God cannot judge those works, because He can't remember them.

Rom 3:25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

The Scripture specifically says past sins are remitted. Do you have any Scriptures plainly saying anyone is forgiven of present and/or future sins? Or, do you only have personal interpretations saying so?

Also, how can we possibly be forgiven of present and future sins, that we haven't even confessed yet?

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

And how can God possibly forget any deeds, while we are doing them? Especially not before we do them?

The people that go through the great white throne judgement have rejected salvation and thus they are judged for their sins.

But, what about those that are found written in the Lamb's book of life?

Rev{20:12} And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works… Rev 20:15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Scripture says, And whosever was not found. Not, And everyone was not found.

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

This prophecy of resurrection and judgment, cannot be the blessed first resurrection of the saints alone, and so Dan 12 has to refer to the rest of the dead after the Lord's millennium. Many will awake with their name found in the book of life. Those many will be the great harvest of souls during the Lord's millennium, that will outnumber all those of the previous thousands of years:

Isa 2:2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD'S house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

Zec 8:23Thus saith the LORD of hosts; In those days it shall come to pass, that ten men shall take hold out of all languages of the nations, even shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, saying, We will go with you: for we have heard that God is with you.

Yes, we will all be judged by the righteous judge, however, believers will not be condemned.

Certainly not any believers doing good. Those doing good may be condemned by the evil-doers, but not by Jesus Christ the righteous:

3Jo 1:11Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

But, those evil servants naming His name? They shall certainly be found guilty at His appearing, and appointed with the hypocrites of the earth.

Matth 24:48But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken; The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of, And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

The works that are not for God will be burned up and not accounted for anything.

True. The ministerial works of 1 Cor 3 are also judged at the Bema seat of Christ. It's clear in 2 Cor 5 at least, that any deed we do in our body can be judged, not just ministerial. The Bema judgment includes ministry, but is not exclusive to ministry alone.

And, we also need to remember the fact, that some of the most destructive works by believers to the body of Christ, comes not from the unbelieving persecutors, but from bad ministry:

2Pe 2:1But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

1 Cor{3:16} Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which [temple] ye are.

And so, even if the Bema judgment is limited to ministry alone, then there will still be some ministering so bad, that the body of Christ is hurt rather than helped, and so they will be destroyed for defiling the temple of God on earth:

Mar 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.

Gal 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased. I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

Gal 1:8But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

I refer you to John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son, that whosoever believeth in him SHALL NOT PERISH, but have everlasting life.

Well, that of course is a translation, that differs from others, where we should not perish. In any case, even with that, we must simply conclude that only those believing on Him that shall not perish, are those believing on Him that shall obey Him and do His good will.

1Jo 2:6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

1Jo 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world. And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Them that shall not perish must walk as He walked. Them that abide forever must do His will.

The simple point being overlooked here, is unfortunately that not all believers are doing good. Now is not yet the time, where all Israel is saved. There still are believers naming the Lord's name, that are doing the same as devils that believe:

Jas 2:19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

And, according to the Lord, there certainly will be some of His servants doing evil at His appearing. Jesus warns and promises, that He will separate the wheat from the tares in His kingdom. He says He will do so when He comes again, and by Scripture He will come with great power and glory sitting upon His righteous Bema seat.

The bema seat of Christ is for the believers whose sins have been taken away,

Disagree of course. We can't just 'write off' how both good and bad deeds will be judged. The Scripture does not say that only the good deeds will be judged: That every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done good.

There will also be bad works done at His judgment seat. Therefore at His seat, not all sinful deeds will be taken away, since all are not forgotten, and so are not forgiven. Otherwise, the Lord would be a liar at His seat for saying He forgets all past unrighteousness, that were taken away.

Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Or, the Scripture is lying in that both good and bad deeds will be judged at His seat...Which is what we are saying, if we say only good deeds appear at His seat, if all have been taken away, forgiven, and forgotten.