The Letter Kills But The Spirit Gives Life

[Candelario Mario Villa]

ts funny that most think preaching against sin and legalism will somehow reduce sin? Its just not biblical nor does it promote true godliness. The Pharisees was the most legalistic group ever, and they where none so far from God as this group was. None hate true righteousness more than those who promote self-righteousness. None are so contrary to the Cross as those who look to offer another sacrifice. They are like Cain, they have a form of godliness but deny Him in their works.
1Jo 3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

_______________________________________

Beloved, I understand where you're coming from: I feel the same way about those who preach Grace in the spirit of the Law.
They teach salvation without mentioning the Gospel: even think that the Gospel is dependent upon doctrine, when in fact the
doctrine of the apostles and prophets lean upon the very author of the Gospel.
Do you know that those people are so legalistic, they deny baptism "...for the remission of sins..."??? They do...but in a very subtle way. They won't deny it for anyone but themselves, because they are so righteous! Can you believe that? I mean, even the Lord Jesus said to "...make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..."; but they seem to think the Lord made a mistake. And it is my duty as a believer to teach the Gospel just the way the Lord Jesus proclaimed it: the way the Lord taught it to the Apostle Paul!
Don't you agree? I know you do, because you are a stickler for righteousness through faith.

 

[Mitspa]

I would say that they are many believers that have not entered into the rest of God? For that rest requires that one ceases from their own works. Much of "Christian" religion teaches a "works" idea, even if they have separated those works from the traditions of the law, they are yet "works" to justify or to attain blessing in some way from God. Now I believe that this mindset is very much carried over from the "works" mindset of the law. To many "Christians" the New Testament is just an addition to the Old, in that they feel they have some grace in Christ but they are yet subject to the letter of the Old and the New.

2Co 3:6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

Now Paul is not speaking of the "letter" of the Old, he is speaking of the "letter" of the New...in that the New is not like the Old, where one must live by keeping a written code. The New Testament is a "spiritual" book and its obedience is in the "Spirit" not in the "letter".
I know most believers have no idea of what this means, nor does anyone dare to teach this truth. I could help others understand, but it takes a comprehensive understanding of the scriptures. Line upon line and precept upon precept. To this point I wonder If I am wasting my time?

 

[Intojoy]

This is getting a lil nutty

 

[Intojoy]

There's a huge grin on my face ...I will be leaving this forum for good...no need to comment as I understand when I'm not wanted...mitzpah sons!

 

[Where is the Messiah]

There's a huge grin on my face ...I will be leaving this forum for good...no need to comment as I understand when I'm not wanted...mitzpah sons!

Why do you guys always leave me?

 

[Major]

_______________________________________

Beloved, I understand where you're coming from: I feel the same way about those who preach Grace in the spirit of the Law.
They teach salvation without mentioning the Gospel: even think that the Gospel is dependent upon doctrine, when in fact the
doctrine of the apostles and prophets lean upon the very author of the Gospel.
Do you know that those people are so legalistic, they deny baptism "...for the remission of sins..."??? They do...but in a very subtle way. They won't deny it for anyone but themselves, because they are so righteous! Can you believe that? I mean, even the Lord Jesus said to "...make disciples of all nations, baptizing them..."; but they seem to think the Lord made a mistake. And it is my duty as a believer to teach the Gospel just the way the Lord Jesus proclaimed it: the way the Lord taught it to the Apostle Paul!
Don't you agree? I know you do, because you are a stickler for righteousness through faith.

God bless you brother and I hear you, but what are you going to do with the thief of the cross when Jesus said.......
"TODAY you will be with me in Paradise".

Did Jesus make a mistake there, or did they take him down from the cross and baptize him and then put him back up on that cross to die?

 

[Major]

There's a huge grin on my face ...I will be leaving this forum for good...no need to comment as I understand when I'm not wanted...mitzpah sons!

Party at my house!...........Actually we are "brothers" of Mitzpah not sons.

 

[Mitspa]

I would like to use these passages as a example of the difference between those like Cain, who attempt to "earn" righteousness and those who "receive" righteousness. Now consider that when the Lord shared this parable type story, he was sharing with those who were under the Law of Moses. Now according to the Law, a son who had sinned against his father was to be taken and stoned. That's the law..that is the written code (letter) but the Lord was showing us the Grace of God and the "Spirit".


Lu 15:21 And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22 But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23 And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.
25 Now his elder son was in the field: and as he came and drew nigh to the house, he heard musick and dancing.
26 And he called one of the servants, and asked what these things meant.
27 And he said unto him, Thy brother is come; and thy father hath killed the fatted calf, because he hath received him safe and sound.
28 And he was angry, and would not go in: therefore came his father out, and intreated him.
29 And he answering said to his father, Lo, these many years do I serve thee, neither transgressed I at any time thy commandment: and yet thou never gavest me a kid, that I might make merry with my friends:
30 But as soon as this thy son was come, which hath devoured thy living with harlots, thou hast killed for him the fatted calf.

We should see that just like Martha, who became bitter that Mary did not "work" like she did.. those who are yet "working" to earn righteousness, always become bitter that God gives "freely" to those who do not deserve.

P.S. I have kind of lost my way on this thread..I hope to kind of get back to making a precept upon precept understanding of this issue of "letter" and "Spirit" but I hope any who are interested would read some of my post and if they have any "related" questions? Would feel free to ask and discuss those things.

 

[Mitspa]

Alexander the great saw a begger on the way. He stop and reached into his purse and pulled out several gold coins and gave to the begger. As he and those with him continued on, they ask him, why he gave gold and not copper coins to this begger? Seeing that copper coins would have sufficed this mans needs? Alexander responded that copper coins suit the beggers need, gold coins suits Alexander's giving.

We have a great promise that God will "give" according to His riches in glory, the Kingdom of God is not about our poverty and not about our righteousness. The Kingdom of God is about the Glory and righteousness of God.

Oh that some would understand that God is righteous in making the sinner righteous. It is "right" for us to be in His Righteousness!
That don't make sense to those who think in terms of poverty and legalism, but it makes complete sense to those who have been taught by the Spirit of God.

Ro 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

 

[Mitspa]

How does one "know" they are walking in the "spirit"? Well of course the fruit of the Spirit will be manifest and bear witness.
love, joy, peace etc.. How does one know they are in the flesh? bitterness, envy, strife, contentions, jealousy, etc..

Religious folks are so blind...they would take part of the defining of the flesh, such as sexual sins etc...and declare that some cannot inherit the Kingdom...but they would ignore there own flesh and excuse it away by religious traditions and the blindness of self-righteousness. All those who are looking to the law for righteousness are in the flesh, all who look to the Ten Commandments and any other part of the law to justify themselves in any way ...are in the flesh!

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

 

[God calls me Olivia]

Olivia said: "It was faith in the messiah symbolized by the animals that made them clean."

Me: Made who clean: the animals or the people? "For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats should take away sins."
So if the sin remains, then those who offered, or sacrificed the animals were also not cleansed. Their sins were not remitted (washed away, erased): they were only covered, just as the sins of Adam and Eve were covered! The same applies today: God showed mercy at Calvary and forgave (held back His judgment) until Grace was poured out upon all flesh, as the Prophet Joel foretold. But who upon whom was the Holy Spirit poured out? On those on whom Jn. 14:6 _ was confirmed!

The Holy Spirit was shed upon certain men (prophets), in the OT; but today, the Holy Spirit (Grace) is available to everyone that believes and obeys the Gospel. If we look at the pattern established by the Holy Spirit through the apostles and prophets in the Book of Acts _ we would do well to submit to the same pattern as the apostles and prophets, and not listen to the modernists that would deny them. We are not "saved" by reading dictionaries: but by the leading of the Spirit of the Lord Jesus! Or have we forgotten: "For as many are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

Faith in Christ is the only way to be made clean. That is my point that animals can't take away sins. I am not sure what point you are trying to make. Seeing as I don't read anything other than the bible, I don't know what you are talking about with modernists. If you are talking about being covered by the Holy Spirit verses being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, what about John the Baptist who died before Jesus died?

"for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born" (Luke 1:15).

 

[God calls me Olivia]

O.K. Sin produced the transgression of the Law: was it before or after he heard it?

There are two laws operating in the Commandments: the Law of Sin and Death, and the Law of Righteousness. Man was offered righteousness through the Commandments: if , therefore, man obeyed the Law of Commandments, he would live; if not, the Law of Sin and Death was imposed. The Law of Commandments offered righteousness in this: "The Law is not of faith: but, 'The man that does them shall live in them." So the Law offers life if a man do them! I know, I know: man could not do them, and he therefore incurred death. Nevertheless, righteousness was offered!

Sin took occasion by the Law by causing man to break the Law: once broken, sin revived. What sin? And how is it that sin "revived"? It is the sin of Adam; and it revived through the Commandments. How is that? Adam received a commandment: not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil! God dealt with that sin when he "clothed" Adam and Eve with skins of animals. They were not made righteous because sin was not done away with: nor has it been put away today. Their sin was simply covered". So the commandment not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil was not given to any other man: only to Adam. So all men born after Adam were born "outside" of the Law of Sin and death; but were all subject to it through Adam. WHAT? "Nevertheless, death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression...". Those men had not sinned in the same manner as Adam, having not received a direct commandment from God! Now God gave the Commandments to Moses for all men (not just for Adam or Moses). So now were all men subject to the Law of Sin and Death if they did not do the Commandments.

T

 

[Mitspa]

Alexander the great saw a begger on the way. He stop and reached into his purse and pulled out several gold coins and gave to the begger. As he and those with him continued on, they ask him, why he gave gold and not copper coins to this begger? Seeing that copper coins would have sufficed this mans needs? Alexander responded that copper coins suit the beggers need, gold coins suits Alexander's giving.

We have a great promise that God will "give" according to His riches in glory, the Kingdom of God is not about our poverty and not about our righteousness. The Kingdom of God is about the Glory and righteousness of God.

Oh that some would understand that God is righteous in making the sinner righteous. It is "right" for us to be in His Righteousness!
That don't make sense to those who think in terms of poverty and legalism, but it makes complete sense to those who have been taught by the Spirit of God.

Ro 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

The Natural man "receives not" the things of God, but the Spirit teaches us the things that are freely given to us by God. The difference between law and grace, the letter and the Spirit, can be found in this truth? The carnal mind of man is yet in bondage with the Adamic mindset? That a man must strive in this world to attain, that one must work to earn the blessing of God. When the Holy Spirit teaches a believer, He teaches based upon God's supply toward us. He teaches us based upon the fact that God has already supplied us all things that pertain to life and godliness. God has already done all the work, and we are to step into the supply of the Spirit of Grace.

Paul, said he labored more abundantly than all the others, yet not him but the grace of God that was with him. Sweat is and was a picture of the curse that came upon man at the fall. The priest in the temple was not allowed to wear anything that would cause them to sweat, because that represented the curse upon man. The Lord sweat drops of His Blood in the "garden'' to redeem us from the anxiety and strife of that curse that is upon all men. Now Paul labored in the grace of God...and the sweat-band from his head, now delivered those in sickness and under bondage to demonic powers.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

 

[The Town Crier]

The Natural man "receives not" the things of God, but the Spirit teaches us the things that are freely given to us by God. The difference between law and grace, the letter and the Spirit, can be found in this truth? The carnal mind of man is yet in bondage with the Adamic mindset? That a man must strive in this world to attain, that one must work to earn the blessing of God. When the Holy Spirit teaches a believer, He teaches based upon God's supply toward us. He teaches us based upon the fact that God has already supplied us all things that pertain to life and godliness. God has already done all the work, and we are to step into the supply of the Spirit of Grace.

Paul, said he labored more abundantly than all the others, yet not him but the grace of God that was with him. Sweat is and was a picture of the curse that came upon man at the fall. The priest in the temple was not allowed to wear anything that would cause them to sweat, because that represented the curse upon man. The Lord sweat drops of His Blood in the "garden'' to redeem us from the anxiety and strife of that curse that is upon all men. Now Paul labored in the grace of God...and the sweat-band from his head, now delivered those in sickness and under bondage to demonic powers.

Heb 4:10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

You are the first person that I have seen on this forum who understands grace...and it is clear by how you 'divide' the word of God.

Most do not understand what 'grace' is:


Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Grace is the work of the Holy Spirit- cleansing us and bringing us to life- with the word of God

The power of God transforming us and renewing us gives us salvation- we must be born again.Those who are still operating in the flesh are still under the law, those who walk according to the Spirit have life and peace. They no longer 'work' (operating by their own power) but by grace( the power of God). It is only under His divine influence(By His power) that what we do will be acceptable to Him...

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

That is how Paul 'laboured'...by the power of Christ upon him...

The problem today is that people have been taught a false doctrine called 'unmerited favor' and the true gospel of the power of God must change us is no longer being taught...Those who are still 'in the flesh' ( the works of the flesh are manifested):

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those who are still doing those things are not born again...The grace of God has not taught them a life of righteousness:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


'Unmerited favor' is lasciviousness and is the main reason we are in the falling away...Most people who confess to be Christians today do not understand what the grace of God is...and that is a fact.

TC

 

[Mitspa]

You are the first person that I have seen on this forum who understands grace...and it is clear by how you 'divide' the word of God.

Most do not understand what 'grace' is:


Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Grace is the work of the Holy Spirit- cleansing us and bringing us to life- with the word of God

The power of God transforming us and renewing us gives us salvation- we must be born again.Those who are still operating in the flesh are still under the law, those who walk according to the Spirit have life and peace. They no longer 'work' (operating by their own power) but by grace( the power of God). It is only under His divine influence(By His power) that what we do will be acceptable to Him...

2Co 12:9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

That is how Paul 'laboured'...by the power of Christ upon him...

The problem today is that people have been taught a false doctrine called 'unmerited favor' and the true gospel of the power of God must change us is no longer being taught...Those who are still 'in the flesh' ( the works of the flesh are manifested):

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those who are still doing those things are not born again...The grace of God has not taught them a life of righteousness:

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;


'Unmerited favor' is lasciviousness and is the main reason we are in the falling away...Most people who confess to be Christians today do not understand what the grace of God is...and that is a fact.

TC

I thank you for your kind words...and I agree that real grace brings godliness and deliverance from the flesh. "Unmerited favor" is very much an aspect of Gods blessing and grace...grace is so huge that to limit it to simplistic definitions is to miss the riches and depths of what it really is. There is a working of grace in every aspect of our lives, finance, health, wisdom, etc.. Everything God gives is a "grace" and is according to grace.

If one is walking in the lust of the flesh? and they tell me they are under grace? Then I will be glad to inform them of the scriptures that prove that true grace delivers us from sin, and they must not understand that Grace is a Spirit, that empowers us unto godliness.

Having said that..grace also allows for the growth of a believer apart from the spirit of bondage and fear, that most of the religious class walk in.

 

[Mitspa]

I also want to add to the last post that the "falling away" happened not long after the Apostle Paul passed to be with Lord. We see that in Johns writings an attempt to restore the true Spiritual foundation of the Church. Even at his time and with his authority he could not restore the "church" back to the Spiritual. There was about a 25 year separation from Paul and Johns writings, formalism ecclesiasticism was already in full force and the "falling away" was already in full force. Spiritual men had been replaced by a system of prelates, bishops and other cleric types. By the time the so-called "church" fathers had written their letters the ''Spiritual'' and True Church had been overcome by carnal men. We now are yet striving against this false system and in a battle to bring the "church" back to its true spiritual foundation.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

 

[The Town Crier]

I also want to add to the last post that the "falling away" happened not long after the Apostle Paul passed to be with Lord. We see that in Johns writings an attempt to restore the true Spiritual foundation of the Church. Even at his time and with his authority he could not restore the "church" back to the Spiritual. There was about a 25 year separation from Paul and Johns writings, formalism ecclesiasticism was already in full force and the "falling away" was already in full force. Spiritual men had been replaced by a system of prelates, bishops and other cleric types. By the time the so-called "church" fathers had written their letters the ''Spiritual'' and True Church had been overcome by carnal men. We now are yet striving against this false system and in a battle to bring the "church" back to its true spiritual foundation.

1Jo 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

An aspect of what you said that is true, but there is a falling away at the end- an entire group of people will be living 'wickedly' against the covenant...They will be revealed at the Lord's return and destroyed:


2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure
in unrighteousness.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


The wicked will be severed from 'among' the just( the 'pre tribulation' rapture theory is a false teaching):

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Those who are alive and remain when the angels are don will be caught up:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jesus does not return until after the tribulation- He said it Himself:

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Those from the 'falling away' will be busy with the cares of life- living like the world and will be caught off guard on the day of the Lord because they fell away and started listening to fables like rapture theories and delayed 70th week of Daniel/ Antichrist in a temple in Jerusalem garbage...The falling away is here now. If it happened around Paul's death as you say, then the Lord returned and burned them up already because they are revealed at His return...

Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between
him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.


Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.


The 'falling away' is an end times event my friend... It is called 'unmerited favor'.

Jesus said unless you repent and are born again, you have no salvation- period.(no gray area) Jesus death and sacrifice for us was given even though we were yet evil and atoned for the sins of the whole world...But we must still receive His word into our heart by the Holy Spirit to have salvation-and that comes through obedience:

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.



TC

 

[Mitspa]

An aspect of what you said that is true, but there is a falling away at the end- an entire group of people will be living 'wickedly' against the covenant...They will be revealed at the Lord's return and destroyed:


2Th 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
2Th 2:9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure
in unrighteousness.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;


The wicked will be severed from 'among' the just( the 'pre tribulation' rapture theory is a false teaching):

2Th 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

Those who are alive and remain when the angels are don will be caught up:

1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Jesus does not return until after the tribulation- He said it Himself:

Mar 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
Mar 13:25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Those from the 'falling away' will be busy with the cares of life- living like the world and will be caught off guard on the day of the Lord because they fell away and started listening to fables like rapture theories and delayed 70th week of Daniel/ Antichrist in a temple in Jerusalem garbage...The falling away is here now. If it happened around Paul's death as you say, then the Lord returned and burned them up already because they are revealed at His return...

Mal 3:18 Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between
him that serveth God and him that serveth him not.


Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.


The 'falling away' is an end times event my friend... It is called 'unmerited favor'.

Jesus said unless you repent and are born again, you have no salvation- period.(no gray area) Jesus death and sacrifice for us was given even though we were yet evil and atoned for the sins of the whole world...But we must still receive His word into our heart by the Holy Spirit to have salvation-and that comes through obedience:

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;


1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.



TC

Well Im sorry but the "falling away" is not coming...it has already happened and we are yet in the midst of it. I don't want to go into so-called "church" history..or get into that which might offend some needlessly, so I will stay on the topic of the thread.

 

[The Town Crier]

Well Im sorry but the "falling away" is not coming...it has already happened and we are yet in the midst of it. I don't want to go into so-called "church" history..or get into that which might offend some needlessly, so I will stay on the topic of the thread.

I agree with staying on topic. but I would like to chat at you through PM about the so called church history' you referenced..Given that 'history' changes as people forget..And what we perceive to have happened in 'history' verses what actually took place is also a different story. If you would, send me a PM with your reason for thinking that the falling away has already taken place and whether the Lord returned and destroyed them.. I am curious to see how you come to your conclusion. I say that in respect as I appreciate the way you understand scripture...

Back to the topic...
I'd like to address a quote of yours for conversation: You said:

"There is a working of grace in every aspect of our lives, finance, health, wisdom, etc.. Everything God gives is a "grace" and is according to grace".

Please show me in scripture where grace is those things you described, as scripture tells us that grace is given for something else:

Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.


Gifts of grace are distributed according to how He wants to build the 'church' and its parts... All 'gifts' come from the Holy Spirit:

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

These are given by the 'spirit of grace'

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the
Spirit of grace?

We are given 'spiritual' gifts of grace for our service to God...

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

The kinds of grace you described above are 'carnal' gifts rather than spiritual ones...

TC

 

[Mitspa]

I agree with staying on topic. but I would like to chat at you through PM about the so called church history' you referenced..Given that 'history' changes as people forget..And what we perceive to have happened in 'history' verses what actually took place is also a different story. If you would, send me a PM with your reason for thinking that the falling away has already taken place and whether the Lord returned and destroyed them.. I am curious to see how you come to your conclusion. I say that in respect as I appreciate the way you understand scripture...

Back to the topic...
I'd like to address a quote of yours for conversation: You said:

"There is a working of grace in every aspect of our lives, finance, health, wisdom, etc.. Everything God gives is a "grace" and is according to grace".

Please show me in scripture where grace is those things you described, as scripture tells us that grace is given for something else:

Rom 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
Rom 12:7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching;
Rom 12:8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.


Gifts of grace are distributed according to how He wants to build the 'church' and its parts... All 'gifts' come from the Holy Spirit:

1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
1Co 12:8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
1Co 12:10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
1Co 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.

These are given by the 'spirit of grace'

Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the
Spirit of grace?

We are given 'spiritual' gifts of grace for our service to God...

Heb 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:

The kinds of grace you described above are 'carnal' gifts rather than spiritual ones...

TC

Lets look a little further..

1Co 3:10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

A grace of wisdom given to Paul to build the Church.

1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

Here Paul describes "grace" as making him all that he was as an Apostle and servant of the truth. He also gives credit to grace alone as that which empowered him unto his labors.

2Co 8:6 Insomuch that we desired Titus, that as he had begun, so he would also finish in you the same grace also.
7 ¶ Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.
2Co 8:9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.

Here Paul speaks of this particular grace of giving and the work of grace in giving and receiving.

2Co 9:8 And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work:

Here I believe it is clear that Paul is showing us a many sided aspect of Gods grace "all" as in every kind, is clearly the intention of this scripture.

I could go on but I believe that makes a solid biblical witness.