The lost art of biblical argument.

geralduk

Inactive
If there were not places of higher learning, do you not see how error would replace the truth of what God meant?

We all can get together around a campfire and discuss the Scriptures but there are some things that only come from those who have studied deeply in the Word of God. IF men had not been to places of higher learning, would the Baptists and Church of God would be baptizing babies as the RCC said we should be doing?

Just look at some of the conversation on this web site. People have come to blows over whether or not water baptism is required to be saved. If 10 or twenty Catholic believers talk it over, do you think that their understanding will change.

If a bunch of Methodists get together with the Catholics, do you really believe that talking about it will change their mind?

The greatest "higher learning" that any one can have is at the feet of Jesus with a bible qs it were.
I do not see Saul of Tarsus with all his learning and study get anywhere or have a better understanding of scripture that Peter James and John who were recognised as "ignorant and unlearned men"
it is good to have a higher education if you cna get it as it can train the mind .But I would also argue that the reformers yous peak of were more tarnsformed by the RENEWAL of their minds rather than anything thier education primarily gave themm.
For was not their education the same as anybody elses in that regard?
Any profit we might get from "all getting round a cmapfire and discussing " would come if by the same token all our minds were in submission to the min d of Christ as well.. if there be any strife or contentions it is at best out of a misunderstanding of scripture at second best ; carnality or worse trying to get the natural man to understand spiritual truths without the Holy Spirit .

in Christ
gerald
 

geralduk

Inactive
The greatest "higher learning" that any one can have is at the feet of Jesus with a bible qs it were.
I do not see Saul of Tarsus with all his learning and study get anywhere or have a better understanding of scripture that Peter James and John who were recognised as "ignorant and unlearned men"
it is good to have a higher education if you cna get it as it can train the mind .But I would also argue that the reformers yous peak of were more tarnsformed by the RENEWAL of their minds rather than anything thier education primarily gave themm.
For was not their education the same as anybody elses in that regard?
Any profit we might get from "all getting round a cmapfire and discussing " would come if by the same token all our minds were in submission to the min d of Christ as well.. if there be any strife or contentions it is at best out of a misunderstanding of scripture at second best ; carnality or worse trying to get the natural man to understand spiritual truths without the Holy Spirit .
Im not against "higher learning" as you put it . But the snare is that men will lean far more upon their 'higher learning' and do than they "trust the Lord" to lead them into all truth"

in Christ
gerald
 
The only things all the schools in this world can do is HELP OR AID in God training any one of us. Time in Prayer and His word will get more revealed to you most times then 6 years in school.
Just my 2 cents. lol
Have a very blessed week end major
jim

Here is my 2 cents.
Help or aid is the ONLY reason anyone would go to any school of higher learning.
Would YOU want a man who never went to college to learn how to do an operation, do that procedure on your brain?
Would you want a man who never used a wrench to work on your car engine?
We just had a Dr. do a procedure on my wife and I am very glad he went to a Medical school to know how to do it.

YES, I agree that time in prayer and in the Word gives us great motivation and learning, that goes without saying, BUT there is more to be learned by seeking higher education on the subject we are drawn to by the Holy Spirit of God.
 
The greatest "higher learning" that any one can have is at the feet of Jesus with a bible qs it were.
I do not see Saul of Tarsus with all his learning and study get anywhere or have a better understanding of scripture that Peter James and John who were recognised as "ignorant and unlearned men"
it is good to have a higher education if you cna get it as it can train the mind .But I would also argue that the reformers yous peak of were more tarnsformed by the RENEWAL of their minds rather than anything thier education primarily gave themm.
For was not their education the same as anybody elses in that regard?
Any profit we might get from "all getting round a cmapfire and discussing " would come if by the same token all our minds were in submission to the min d of Christ as well.. if there be any strife or contentions it is at best out of a misunderstanding of scripture at second best ; carnality or worse trying to get the natural man to understand spiritual truths without the Holy Spirit .

in Christ
gerald

You are correct my friend. But when the person in question has been in prayer and read the Bible there is then a need to become more educated in the subject he has a calling to learn of.

I can not have an understanding in Hebrew unless I am taught by someone who knows it.
I can not have an understanding in the Greek unless I am taught by someone who knows it.

Both of those languages are helpful in understanding the meaning of words and phrases in the Bible.

No one goes to a seminary, or school of higher learning about God and the Scriptures to get the entrance requirements into the Christian ministry; they go to seminary schools to refine the tools of ministry that they are already exercising.

Of course the main difference between Jesus’ teaching and a modern seminary is that most seminaries require college degrees for admission. Seminary, therefore, is not for everybody. It is for those who are intellectually prepared to learn from Jesus at a scholarly level. Does Jesus, then, restrict his teaching to academic types? Certainly not. Jesus today teaches people of all ages, nationalities, educational backgrounds, socio-economic levels. He teaches through sermons, Sunday schools, missionaries, evangelists, TV and radio ministries, the internet, personal Bible study, and through godly families teaching their children. But he also teaches his church through the discipline of academic courses, and seminary is one place to get teaching at that level.
 
Here is my 2 cents.
Help or aid is the ONLY reason anyone would go to any school of higher learning.
Would YOU want a man who never went to college to learn how to do an operation, do that procedure on your brain?
Would you want a man who never used a wrench to work on your car engine?
We just had a Dr. do a procedure on my wife and I am very glad he went to a Medical school to know how to do it.

YES, I agree that time in prayer and in the Word gives us great motivation and learning, that goes without saying, BUT there is more to be learned by seeking higher education on the subject we are drawn to by the Holy Spirit of God.

Hint -I said aid or help God training us. This would be towards preaching and teaching of His word and not fixing cars or pulling teeth etc.
God Bless
 
Hint -I said aid or help God training us. This would be towards preaching and teaching of His word and not fixing cars or pulling teeth etc.
God Bless

Understood as that is what I read your words to say. However, just as pulling teeth and fixing cars requires education so that it can be done correctly, so does the teaching of the Word of God......IMO.

Is it a requirement all the time. Obviously not. Many outstanding men have become preachers and led thousands to Christ which is of course the goal we all strive for.

I heard a story told a long time ago about a brash youth pastor responded on this same subject. He was heard to have said........
"I do not need seminary. I pastor high school students. They need me to love them and teach them about life, so a seminary education is not necessary."

When challenged to consider the fact that Scripture is the best source for understanding life. The youth pastor agreed, but said that since the Bible moved him personally, he had no need of formal theological training. That seems to be what I am reading here on our site. Maybe I am wrong but it seems to be the thinking.

That answer would make anyone who in fact does read the Bible to cringe in light of the admonition in Proverbs 19:12........
"Also, that the soul be without knowledge, it is not good; and he that hasteth with his feet sinneth."
That my friends is a warning against "zeal without knowledge."

Assuming this young man holds to his way of thinking, he will never know how much a higher education might have done for him and his ministry efforts or anyone else for that matter.

Then we also have Paul's concern in Rom. 10:2.....
" For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."
 
Understood as that is what I read your words to say. However, just as pulling teeth and fixing cars requires education so that it can be done correctly, so does the teaching of the Word of God......IMO.

Is it a requirement all the time. Obviously not. Many outstanding men have become preachers and led thousands to Christ which is of course the goal we all strive for.

I heard a story told a long time ago about a brash youth pastor responded on this same subject. He was heard to have said........
"I do not need seminary. I pastor high school students. They need me to love them and teach them about life, so a seminary education is not necessary."

When challenged to consider the fact that Scripture is the best source for understanding life. The youth pastor agreed, but said that since the Bible moved him personally, he had no need of formal theological training. That seems to be what I am reading here on our site. Maybe I am wrong but it seems to be the thinking.

That answer would make anyone who in fact does read the Bible to cringe in light of the admonition in Proverbs 19:12........
"Also, that the soul be without knowledge, it is not good; and he that hasteth with his feet sinneth."
That my friends is a warning against "zeal without knowledge."

Assuming this young man holds to his way of thinking, he will never know how much a higher education might have done for him and his ministry efforts or anyone else for that matter.

Then we also have Paul's concern in Rom. 10:2.....
" For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge."
Hello Major, ;)
Knowledge is strength and power and that is scriptural and we know this.
The only point I want to make is schooling of any kind can not make a preacher or teacher or pastor etc out of you. They can only aid God in doing so.

I have nothing what so ever against higher education or knowledge etc.
I was at one time overwhelmed with the new Lowrance HDS 12 Gen 3 fish finders. I thought there is no way I will ever get this stuff and I could not see what was right in fron of my eyes.

Prayer and directed knowledge ( TEACHING ) which is education....HAS GIVEN ME STRENGTH in this and now I have an over abundance of confidence in this new Lowrance and have also inquired the insight Genesis capability and I can say that my gained knowledge through education has given me and edge and a tool way above what I ever thought possible.

I said all this to show you I believe in higher education - when it comes to preaching and teaching I still believe in the higher education BUT as second string or concern or back seat to God. With out God all the teaching in the world will not make you a valued pastor or teacher etc.

Brother Knowledge is STRENGTH and you can find that right in His word.
God Bless
Jim
 
Hello Major, ;)
Knowledge is strength and power and that is scriptural and we know this.
The only point I want to make is schooling of any kind can not make a preacher or teacher or pastor etc out of you. They can only aid God in doing so.

I have nothing what so ever against higher education or knowledge etc.
I was at one time overwhelmed with the new Lowrance HDS 12 Gen 3 fish finders. I thought there is no way I will ever get this stuff and I could not see what was right in fron of my eyes.

Prayer and directed knowledge ( TEACHING ) which is education....HAS GIVEN ME STRENGTH in this and now I have an over abundance of confidence in this new Lowrance and have also inquired the insight Genesis capability and I can say that my gained knowledge through education has given me and edge and a tool way above what I ever thought possible.

I said all this to show you I believe in higher education - when it comes to preaching and teaching I still believe in the higher education BUT as second string or concern or back seat to God. With out God all the teaching in the world will not make you a valued pastor or teacher etc.

Brother Knowledge is STRENGTH and you can find that right in His word.
God Bless
Jim

I believe that man is called to preach by God. Thus God will equip that man with the ability to grow, love, be compassionate and understanding. That man then will be encouraged by The Holy Spirit to grow not only in grace and understanding but knowledge as well.
 
I was at one time overwhelmed with the new Lowrance HDS 12 Gen 3 fish finders. I thought there is no way I will ever get this stuff and I could not see what was right in fron of my eyes.

Well, Fish Catcher Jim,

I thought you must be talking about some deep theological theory that you had discovered here: and I sought information on the internet concerning this, 'lowrance HDS 12 Gen 3', only to discover that it was quite another, 'deep,' that this dealt with, and quite another 'fish' being caught!! :)

Within the love of Christ
Our risen and glorified
Saviour, Lord and Head.

Chris
 

geralduk

Inactive
You are correct my friend. But when the person in question has been in prayer and read the Bible there is then a need to become more educated in the subject he has a calling to learn of.

I can not have an understanding in Hebrew unless I am taught by someone who knows it.
I can not have an understanding in the Greek unless I am taught by someone who knows it.

Both of those languages are helpful in understanding the meaning of words and phrases in the Bible.

No one goes to a seminary, or school of higher learning about God and the Scriptures to get the entrance requirements into the Christian ministry; they go to seminary schools to refine the tools of ministry that they are already exercising.

Of course the main difference between Jesus’ teaching and a modern seminary is that most seminaries require college degrees for admission. Seminary, therefore, is not for everybody. It is for those who are intellectually prepared to learn from Jesus at a scholarly level. Does Jesus, then, restrict his teaching to academic types? Certainly not. Jesus today teaches people of all ages, nationalities, educational backgrounds, socio-economic levels. He teaches through sermons, Sunday schools, missionaries, evangelists, TV and radio ministries, the internet, personal Bible study, and through godly families teaching their children. But he also teaches his church through the discipline of academic courses, and seminary is one place to get teaching at that level.

To keep things in balance .
It should be understood that even the Lord was once accused of" not a man of letters"
Peter ,James and John were recognised as "unlearned and ignorant men"
Saul of Tarsus had Hebrew as his mother tounge .He sat under the greatest theologian of his day .His whole life had been steeped and saturated with the scriptures . But did he understand the scriptures ? No. He so did not understand the scriptures that he persecuted the church and agreed with Stephens death and thought it Gods will.
In fact it can be reasonaly argued that his three years in the Arabian desert was needed to get his head sorted out and the scriptures put in their proper place in the light that he had been given. Thus AFTER he had been enlightened , or the "eyes of his understanding opened" of the scriptures he had known all his life his saturation of scripture THEN with the Holy Spirit gave depth and breadth and hight to the teachings of Jesus Christ. and by that I mean that the Lords teaching has those but Paul broke the bread to our understanding using the Old testament to do so .
and what of the scribes and the Saducees and the Pharasees was not Hebrew their mother tounge? Did they understand the scriptures? Not at all. Despite the Lord teachign them the true meaning .In one place he said Ye boast in the scriptures but ye know not him of whom they speak . They missed the point entirely .
and in another he said "by your traditions ye have made the Word of God of none effect "
A theoligical seminar that teaches philosophy as well as theology ;why?
Im saying that if a language is your mother tounge you have an understanding of a langauge that learning 'Hebrew ' does not give you straight away even if you are proficient in it .
But I reject the increasing and pervading idea in the church that you cannot understand the scriptures properly unless you understand Greek or Hebrew. For the reasons set out above .
I reject utterly the notion that by learning Hebrew and Greek you automatically understand the scriptures . For reasons set out above.
In truth while it MAY be profitable to so learn them. Then all who do should be aware that the snare then is to lean upon your understanding of Hebrew and Greek rather than upon Him who was and is promised "to lead us into all truth " and "by whom we know the spirit of error"
A man is ordained of God . He is sent from God, He is of no use unless he ahs gone to God in the first place and been all taught of Him.All those ministers of God are made by God .The reason why we have so little power and authority in our pulpits is because men now subject the scriptures to THEIR reasoning and taught to do so in many a semina.Rather than subject their reasoning to God and His Word.
Mans intellect in. of and by itself is a false light and will by itself always lead him astray.
For eh will simply do that which is right or good in his own eyes and according to his own reasoning .
We now have a myriad of versions of the Bible . All claiming a "better understanding" yet all differing one from another .They have to lest they are accused of plagerism .
Yet with all that "better understanding " whether of Hebrew or Greek ,I do not know .
They seem not to understand English .
For all modern versions save two have Genesis 1:1 as "In the beginning God created the heavenS and the earth "
Where it should be "In the beginning God created the heaveN and the earth "
Having got that wrong they then mix it with Gen 2:1 where all say thus "the heavenS ...."
The fruits of such an error? Is you have other 'bibles ' the "Student Bible " for one that has gen 1:1 "In the beginning God created the SKY and the earth "
An absurd rendition and one that should never have been accepted ,But has .
My question then is if you have a number of versians before you and they are all different in a number of ways .By what criteria do you judge is right?
and if you so judge it right .Why then are there versions that by your judgment have it wrong?
Unless of course you are simply choosing what is right in your own eyes?
Is God double minded or does not know His own mind? That He needs a multitude of versions to say (supposedly) the same thing?

How are we to know or have the mind of Christ if we have so many different versions of it ;according to some?
Then I say by the argument of Hebrews and Greek it would seem to have brought more confusion than understanding.

in Christ
gerald
 

geralduk

Inactive
I believe that man is called to preach by God. Thus God will equip that man with the ability to grow, love, be compassionate and understanding. That man then will be encouraged by The Holy Spirit to grow not only in grace and understanding but knowledge as well.

With all Saul of Tarsus "knowledge" and learning up to that point .He counted it all dung and knowledge of Jesus Christ worth more than life itself .

in Christ
gerald
 

Grant Melville

Account Closed
I believe that man is called to preach by God. Thus God will equip that man with the ability to grow, love, be compassionate and understanding. That man then will be encouraged by The Holy Spirit to grow not only in grace and understanding but knowledge as well.
We're not only encouraged by the Holy Spirit to grow in grace and understanding and knowledge - He is the One that facilitates that growth, the One by whom we're quickened. Who is a better Teacher of the knowledge of God than the Spirit of God? "But according as it is written, Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him, but God has revealed to us by his Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God." (1 Corinthians 2:9-10).
 
With all Saul of Tarsus "knowledge" and learning up to that point .He counted it all dung and knowledge of Jesus Christ worth more than life itself .

in Christ
gerald

Very true. And to add to that Paul’s early education was in the schools of Tarsus, which was known as a “little Athens for learning.” There he would have become acquainted with the philosophy and poetry of the Greeks, which he later remembered and used (Acts 17:28;Titus 1:12). At the traditional age of 14, young Saul was sent to the university at Jerusalem, where he studied the Torah (Jewish law). His tutor was Gamaliel, an eminent Pharisee (Acts22:3; cf.Titus 5:34). Thus Saul had the ultimate educational experience for a young Jewish male in that period.
 

geralduk

Inactive
We're not only encouraged by the Holy Spirit to grow in grace and understanding and knowledge - He is the One that facilitates that growth, the One by whom we're quickened. Who is a better Teacher of the knowledge of God than the Spirit of God? "But according as it is written, Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him, but God has revealed to us by his Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God." (1 Corinthians 2:9-10).

True ;but we must keep balanced also in that God has for instance given us "teachers" to minister to the church of God for its perfection. Thus when it says "we have no need for any to teach us " It does not mean that we need not have any teach us about anything but if the Spirit of truth now abides in us then we by Him "know the spirit of error" Thus in matters of what is good and evil or true or false we have no need for any to teach us for we have by practice learnt to discern good from evil. and being led by the Spirit of truth know error when we hear it .Though we may not know why it si to start with.
My sheep know my voice says the Lord and will not follow another .
The snare in purely an intellectual aproach to scriptures as to the letter and of words is that it ignores the fact that there is a BODY of truth which is the scriptures and there is a Spirit of truth.
If we have but the Word of God and not the Spirit of God we dry up.
If we have but the Spirit of God but not the Word of God ,we blow up.
But if we have the Word of God and the Spirit of God we grow up.
It is interesting to note that in the garden of Eden ,God by HIS knowledge of what was good and what was evil man LIVED .For man shall not live by every tree that was good to eat but by that word that came forth form hois mouth as to what was god to eat and what was evil to eat. It was the rejection of His word and beleivign the lie that they did that whcih was good in thier own eyes .For eve "SAW" THAT IT WAS GOOD TO EAT..
In very truth when a person is true born again child of God .He does enter into that eternal will of God preordained from the foundations of the earth .For now by the Spirit of truth and the Body of truth we learn of Gods wisdom as to what si good and what is evil and by practice learn to recognise it.
In Christ
gerald
We're not only encouraged by the Holy Spirit to grow in grace and understanding and knowledge - He is the One that facilitates that growth, the One by whom we're quickened. Who is a better Teacher of the knowledge of God than the Spirit of God? "But according as it is written, Things which eye has not seen, and ear not heard, and which have not come into man's heart, which God has prepared for them that love him, but God has revealed to us by his Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God." (1 Corinthians 2:9-10).
 
With all Saul of Tarsus "knowledge" and learning up to that point .He counted it all dung and knowledge of Jesus Christ worth more than life itself .

in Christ
gerald

Is that what he said Gerald??? Didn't he actually say the opposite????

Philippians 3:5-8 lists 7 THINGS he said that he would gladly give up.
1). Circumcised the eighth day,
2). of the stock of Israel,
3). of the tribe of Benjamin,
4). an Hebrew of the Hebrews;
5). as touching the law,
6). a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church;
7). touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss ----FOR THE EXCELLENCY OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST JESUS MY LORD: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.

He actually said he would give up THOSE 7 things because they meant nothing when compared to the KNOWLEDGE of knowing Christ. He was making sure that we all knew that he (Paul) willingly renounced his earthly advantages and Jewish privileges as a means of obtaining salvation.

Which I believe proves my point doesn't it???
 
Is that what he said Gerald??? Didn't he actually say the opposite????

Philippians 3:5-8 lists 7 THINGS he said that he would gladly give up.
1). Circumcised the eighth day,
2). of the stock of Israel,
3). of the tribe of Benjamin,
4). an Hebrew of the Hebrews;
5). as touching the law,
6). a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church;
7). touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss ----FOR THE EXCELLENCY OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST JESUS MY LORD: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.

He actually said he would give up THOSE 7 things because they meant nothing when compared to the KNOWLEDGE of knowing Christ. He was making sure that we all knew that he (Paul) willingly renounced his earthly advantages and Jewish privileges as a means of obtaining salvation.

Which I believe proves my point doesn't it???

circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, i of the tribe of Benjamin, j a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, k a Pharisee;6concerning zeal, l persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.7But m what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
8Yet indeed I also count all things loss n for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ

Seems both of you are right
 
circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, i of the tribe of Benjamin, j a Hebrew of the Hebrews; concerning the law, k a Pharisee;6concerning zeal, l persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.7But m what things were gain to me, these I have counted loss for Christ.
8Yet indeed I also count all things loss n for the excellence of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them as rubbish, that I may gain Christ

Seems both of you are right

Ya think?
When I looked up the Greek phrase included with the word "all things" I was surprised to learn it has the article, referring to the preceding "all things" or as translated..... "I have suffered the loss of them all."
 

geralduk

Inactive
You are correct my friend. But when the person in question has been in prayer and read the Bible there is then a need to become more educated in the subject he has a calling to learn of.

I can not have an understanding in Hebrew unless I am taught by someone who knows it.
I can not have an understanding in the Greek unless I am taught by someone who knows it.

Both of those languages are helpful in understanding the meaning of words and phrases in the Bible.

No one goes to a seminary, or school of higher learning about God and the Scriptures to get the entrance requirements into the Christian ministry; they go to seminary schools to refine the tools of ministry that they are already exercising.

Of course the main difference between Jesus’ teaching and a modern seminary is that most seminaries require college degrees for admission. Seminary, therefore, is not for everybody. It is for those who are intellectually prepared to learn from Jesus at a scholarly level. Does Jesus, then, restrict his teaching to academic types? Certainly not. Jesus today teaches people of all ages, nationalities, educational backgrounds, socio-economic levels. He teaches through sermons, Sunday schools, missionaries, evangelists, TV and radio ministries, the internet, personal Bible study, and through godly families teaching their children. But he also teaches his church through the discipline of academic courses, and seminary is one place to get teaching at that level.
Most(?)seminaries use of mans philosophy and logic as a foundation for learning theology is a grave fault.
I have met bible seminar students looking to become pastors who were taught all the opinions of men as to this doctrine or that one rather than the truth .
I have also heard the testimony of young men full of fire and faith going in and coming out as dead as a door post and nigh on Godless .
My own pastor of the church I was saved in once confessed to me that as to beign BORNagain there is a generL AGREEMENT . In all other matters there are as many opinions as there are pastors.
How can this be when or if the Spirit of God rules in the minds and hearts of men and who is promised by scripture to elad us into all truth?
There are corrupt teachers of Hebrew and Greek as there are corrupt versions of the Bible derived from their "better understanding"
If any man goes into any theoligical seminar he needs must be fully armed with th whole armour of God as he needs it when eh goes into the world .

in Christ
gerald
 

geralduk

Inactive
Is that what he said Gerald??? Didn't he actually say the opposite????

Philippians 3:5-8 lists 7 THINGS he said that he would gladly give up.
1). Circumcised the eighth day,
2). of the stock of Israel,
3). of the tribe of Benjamin,
4). an Hebrew of the Hebrews;
5). as touching the law,
6). a Pharisee;
Concerning zeal, persecuting the church;
7). touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss ----FOR THE EXCELLENCY OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF CHRIST JESUS MY LORD: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ.

He actually said he would give up THOSE 7 things because they meant nothing when compared to the KNOWLEDGE of knowing Christ. He was making sure that we all knew that he (Paul) willingly renounced his earthly advantages and Jewish privileges as a means of obtaining salvation.

Which I believe proves my point doesn't it???

What I said was that his knowledge of Hebrew which was his mother tounge did not 'save' him nor give him understanding of the scriptures.
He so did not understand the scriptures he persecuted the church and was in agreement with the stoning of Stephen thinkign it was Gods will.
By that I say those who boast in knowing Greek and Hebrew and think by that alone they will understand the scriptures as they should be understood should take Saul as a warning .
For the snare is you will lean more upon your own understanding (of Greek and Hebrew) than trust in the Lord " who is promised to lead us into all truth . through the scriptures ,whether they be in Greek Hebrew English or Chinese .
In truth I would argue it took those three years in the arabian desert to sort out his thinking and unlearn all that he had learnt and was thus transformed by the renewal of his mind not his understanding of Hebrew.

in Christ
gerald
 

geralduk

Inactive
Ya think?
When I looked up the Greek phrase included with the word "all things" I was surprised to learn it has the article, referring to the preceding "all things" or as translated..... "I have suffered the loss of them all."

I would also suggest that this 'counting''it is the same as "count yourself dead......."
A careful readign of all his letters will also show that he expounded on every thing he before boasted in and showed them in the true light .

in Christ
gerald
 
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