The lost art of biblical argument.

There is the BODY of truth and there is the Spirit of truth.
The written Word is the body or the letter .
When people have but the body of truth or the Bible then it is easy to go into error by any number of ways .
Subjecting the Word of God to mans mind ,wisdom and philosophy and intellect .
Adding to it and omitting from it by our "better understanding"
Taking scripture out of context .
Taking one doctrine and trying by that one doctrine to understand all scripture.
It should also be understood the devil loves religious debates (see Eve) as well as some bible study groups. (see Jehovah witnesses and others)
This is how we know error .
1 John4:6 "We are of God ,he that knoweth God heareth us , he that is not of God heareth us not.Hereby we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error"
Romans 8:9 ,
"Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ , he is none of His"
John 14:17
.......Even the Spirit of truth, WHOM THE WORLD CANNOT RECEIVE, because the world seeth him not , nor knoweth Him,but Ye know Him, for he dwelleth with you and shall be in you"

We know the spirit of error by the Spirit of truth .

in Christ
gerald
 
Major said:
Then we are in agreement Gerald. Learning ANY language does not guarantee anything except that you can order water in a restaurant instead of sand when everyone in that restaurant speaks Spanish and you don't.

Knowing any language only gives you the ability to know what the intent was of the author and does not increase faith.
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Then why did Saul of Tarsus who had Hebrew as his mother tounge not know the intent and understanding of the scriptures?

in Christ
gerald
 
crownoflife said:
However, when what someone is speaking does not bare witness with the Truth, it is then our responsibility to be gentle and correct, reprove, reproach, or rebuke the spirit that speaks, not the vessel it is coming out of. It is a spiritual thing; it is eternal.

The art of biblical argument (as you call it), I believe is not lost, but suppressed. We have been taught to do this by those who say they believe and know Him. However, upon searching scriptures and seeking His wisdom and understanding by revelation knowledge of Jesus Christ, I have realized (by way of the Holy Ghost, the only true Teacher), that they are not led of the Holy Ghost but the traditions and doctrines of men. Yep, they don't like a Spirit-filled believer to come in and expose them, anymore than they liked it when Christ entered into the synagogue and exposed them.
Do you love them as Christ loved them? or do we fear they will kill us too?
Why are believers stricken with a "spirit of fear"? because those who say they "believe" have killed every prophet God has sent to them; even His only begotten Son; and let's remember Stephen (the first martyr after Christ), while Paul stood by guarding their clothes and consenting to Stephen's death.

Has the spirits sitting on the pews changed?
So why does the "spirit of fear" still control the population of "God's people"?
God has not given us a spirit of fear; but one of love, understanding and a sound mind. Amen

Yes, the devil wants me to shut up... he does not want his people to wake up; he wants them right there on their pew fast asleep. There is no Word on the street because people fear death. Well, we do not know Him yet, then, because if we did we would not continue to hold on to this world knowing we have a mansion waiting and a crown of gold for our head, where there is no more pain, or sorrows, or tears, or hurt... get the picture?
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Whether we live or die it is to the Lord and no man can do anything to a child of God save eh go through Jesus first .
For is it not written that our life is hid with Christ in God?

in Christ
gerald
 
geralduk said:
Then why did Saul of Tarsus who had Hebrew as his mother tounge not know the intent and understanding of the scriptures?

in Christ
gerald
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Pharisees like Saul/Paul were blinded, and the Jews continue to this day in their spiritual blindness---in general, apart from the burgeoning numbers of Jews in these last days who are receiving Jesus as their Messiah right now.

Is there any wonder why Jesus struck him with such light that he became physically blinded?


.
 
The two finest examples of a biblical argument are the letters of Paul to the Romans and to the Hebrews.
and as a study of how to argue a case would be worthy of any persons effort in biblical study as well as learning to follow an argument .
Let us reason together says God .

So let us look at the letter to the Hebrews . Admitedly with a broad stroke but hopefully enough to see what is needed.

Moses began with "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"
John began with "In the beginning was the Word....."
Paul simply begins with " GOD,"

If you do not start your argument WITH God and i dont mean the word 'God' .Then you do not start from a rock or solid foundation.
What comes from GOD leads men TO or back to God . What does not leads men away from God.
He is principally writing to the newly converted Jews . But in truth the message is to us all . For what God spoke to them in divers ways and sundry times he also spoke to us . For they were given" for our ensample"
He wishes to show that Jesus was and is the fulfillment of all those promises aforementioned in the Old testament and how they have entered a new covenant based upon better promises and a better priesthood .
and so he starts .
"God who at sundry times and in divers manners spake by the prophets ......"
He speaks of what they know and where they are .
Hath in the last days spoken to us by His Son "
and without apology declares the truth . in verse 2.3 and 4
THEN he begins to unfold his argument .
To establish first the Son ship of the Lord.
By those scriptures that pertain to the subject . 5,6,7 and 8
Those alone are worthy of much study.
and he continues using scripture to build a picture of Him who was promised in the Old testament.
He sobers us up in verse 1 of chapter 2 . and i am reminded of the father of John the baptist who recieved the message with unbelief and suffered the consequences for 9 months .
Let alone those who suffered far worse in the Old Testament .
Then he declares indirectly that the Messiah is a man made little lower than the angels .
and while we do not see all things under mans feet we do see that all things are under His feet and why .
He is also alluding to the promise of God in the garden of Eden to the one who would bruise the head of the serpent (who brought death) but in doing so would suffer having his heal bruised in the process.
and so it unfolds line upon line precept upon precept .
and get to Abraham 2:16

in Christ
gerald
 
Euphemia said:
Pharisees like Saul/Paul were blinded, and the Jews continue to this day in their spiritual blindness---in general, apart from the burgeoning numbers of Jews in these last days who are receiving Jesus as their Messiah right now.

Is there any wonder why Jesus struck him with such light that he became physically blinded?


.
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I was pointing out that despite that Hebrew was his mother tounge it did not help him understand the scriptures .
which answers the false idea that if a person can only learn Hebrew or Greek they will understand the scriptures.
In of and by themselves they will not.
and if Jew or Saul knowing Hebrew did not nor then will anybody else by them alone either .

in Christ
gerald
 
Yes,
geralduk said:
Whether we live or die it is to the Lord and no man can do anything to a child of God save eh go through Jesus first .
For is it not written that our life is hid with Christ in God?

in Christ
gerald
Click to expand...
Hidden in Christ YES, in Him brother. His stripes do hurt. I love my Lord. Stay humble brother God us so much.
 
geralduk said:
I was pointing out that despite that Hebrew was his mother tounge it did not help him understand the scriptures .
which answers the false idea that if a person can only learn Hebrew or Greek they will understand the scriptures.
In of and by themselves they will not.
and if Jew or Saul knowing Hebrew did not nor then will anybody else by them alone either .

in Christ
gerald
Click to expand...

One can only gain spiritual understanding from scripture by the work of the Holy Spirit, and that truth went for Saul/Paul, as well.
 
Euphemia said:
One can only gain spiritual understanding from scripture by the work of the Holy Spirit, and that truth went for Saul/Paul, as well.
Click to expand...

Not disputed .
Saul of Tarsus was soaked ,steeped and in the scriptures and he spoke Hebrew as a mother tounge ,Greek and possibly others as well .Sat under the greatest theologian of his day . Yet so did not understand the scriptures he persecuted the church and agreed with Stephens death ,thinking it was Gods will.
Once enlightened it took I think that three years in the arabian desert to get his head sorted out and his theology right .

Paul then came back preaching the gospel and the rest is history . It would be well if people started where he did .Then they might either be" followers of him as he was of Christ" and or come to the same conclusion and think like he did . and thus "All come to a unity of the faith"

In Christ
gerald
 
Major said:
You will have to be more specific than that. Please post Scripture you are using so we can respond to the same thing.
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I have so stated .
That he persecuted the church imprisoned brethren and agreed with Stephens death and thought it was Gods will.

By his own confession he was a Hebrew of the Hebrews 2 Cor 11:22
and more .Yet with all his boasting and he could boast or glory in much. It was to no avail and his zeal was without knowledge or understanding.
What of the pharassees and the Saducees and the Drs of the law ? Did they not also know Hebrew?
Did they not also have the 'original texts' more than any man can alive to day?
Yet did they understand the scriptures?
They so did not understand the scriptures they opposed the Lord all the way down the road to calvary and sent him to Pilate to eb crucified and they too thought it was Gods will.
Did they not know Hebrew? yes but Jesus said "They knew not Him of whom they spake"! (read also acts 13:27)

in Christ
gerald
 
geralduk said:
I have so stated .
That he persecuted the church imprisoned brethren and agreed with Stephens death and thought it was Gods will.

By his own confession he was a Hebrew of the Hebrews 2 Cor 11:22
and more .Yet with all his boasting and he could boast or glory in much. It was to no avail and his zeal was without knowledge or understanding.
What of the pharassees and the Saducees and the Drs of the law ? Did they not also know Hebrew?
Did they not also have the 'original texts' more than any man can alive to day?
Yet did they understand the scriptures?
They so did not understand the scriptures they opposed the Lord all the way down the road to calvary and sent him to Pilate to eb crucified and they too thought it was Gods will.
Did they not know Hebrew? yes but Jesus said "They knew not Him of whom they spake"! (read also acts 13:27)

in Christ
gerald
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Yes he did all those things and even more that that. And YOU did the same thing BEFORE you were saved my friend.

The men who did not understand the Scriptures did not at that time have the filling of the Holy Spirit which gave them understanding.

Gerald...........the key to rightly living the Christian life and dividing the Word of God is being controlled by the Holy Spirit, who provides energy for walking "worthy of the calling with which you have been called" (Eph. 4:1). Unless you are controlled by the Spirit of God, you can never walk in humility, love, unity, light, and wisdom. The life of God in the soul of man is the only way anyone can live a righteous life. To walk without the Spirit is to walk without wisdom ( Eph. 5:15 -17).

The filling or controlling of the Holy Spirit is a profound reality in the believer's life, and understanding it can change your life.
 
Major said:
Yes he did all those things and even more that that. And YOU did the same thing BEFORE you were saved my friend.

The men who did not understand the Scriptures did not at that time have the filling of the Holy Spirit which gave them understanding.

Gerald...........the key to rightly living the Christian life and dividing the Word of God is being controlled by the Holy Spirit, who provides energy for walking "worthy of the calling with which you have been called" (Eph. 4:1). Unless you are controlled by the Spirit of God, you can never walk in humility, love, unity, light, and wisdom. The life of God in the soul of man is the only way anyone can live a righteous life. To walk without the Spirit is to walk without wisdom ( Eph. 5:15 -17).

The filling or controlling of the Holy Spirit is a profound reality in the believer's life, and understanding it can change your life.
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Who would deny it?
What I am speaking about is the growing and prevailing idea that if you can but understand Greek and Hebrew you will understand the scriptures.
I am simply pointing out that this is not so and used the two witnesses of Saul of Tarsus as well as the Pharasses to prove it .

In as much then as the Holy Spirit was needed to inspire men what to write . So in the same measure is the Holy Spirit needed to understand what was written.
Whether it be in English , Greek Chinese ,Swahili or Hebrew.

in Christ
gerald
 
geralduk said:
Who would deny it?
What I am speaking about is the growing and prevailing idea that if you can but understand Greek and Hebrew you will understand the scriptures.
I am simply pointing out that this is not so and used the two witnesses of Saul of Tarsus as well as the Pharasses to prove it .

In as much then as the Holy Spirit was needed to inspire men what to write . So in the same measure is the Holy Spirit needed to understand what was written.
Whether it be in English , Greek Chinese ,Swahili or Hebrew.

in Christ
gerald
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And what I am telling you is the fact that knowing Greek and Hebrew WILL help in understanding the Scriptures.

If you do not want to believe and accept that.......I do not care and I am not going to argue with you over such a silly thing which is so obvious. You believe whatever you want to and I will do the same.

But...........if you go to China and look at a menu and order water because you do not understand the menu, do not look surprised when you get a bowl of sand instead.

How can this be worthy of a debate??????
 
'Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.
But shun profane and vain babblings:
for they will increase unto more ungodliness.'
(2 Tim. 2:15)

Hello there,

No one would doubt the need for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. Nor would any sensible person deny the value of understanding the original languages of the Scriptures. However, it is the use to which words used, were put by the Holy Spirit, that gives the most accurate interpretation of any word. That, as we all know, is achieved by comparing Scripture with Scripture. A good concordance and an open Bible is all that we need, for we all have (if we are saved by grace through faith in God's precious Son) the indwelling new nature, through which the Holy Spirit works to take of the things of Christ and make them ours.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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Major said:
And what I am telling you is the fact that knowing Greek and Hebrew WILL help in understanding the Scriptures.

If you do not want to believe and accept that.......I do not care and I am not going to argue with you over such a silly thing which is so obvious. You believe whatever you want to and I will do the same.

But...........if you go to China and look at a menu and order water because you do not understand the menu, do not look surprised when you get a bowl of sand instead.

How can this be worthy of a debate??????
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IF and it is a big if ;people actually were more careful as to what they read we would save a lot of time.
I said in of and by itself learning Hebrew or Greek will not help you in understanding the scriptures as we are supposed to.
Though you might indeed know how to order a soup in Athens or soup in Jerusalem .
For proof I point to Saul of Tarsus who knew Hebrew ;it was his mother tounge was steeped in all of the scriptures but understood them not.
The very people who boast in knowing Hebrew and the Greek rather than in Him who leads us into all truth are the very ones who understand the least.

I am not debating it at all for it is a fact . Im simply tryign to get you to see or understand the matter .
I never debate the truth .
But I will give an argument to substantiate it .


in Christ
gerald
 
Complete said:
'Study to shew thyself approved unto God,
a workman that needeth not to be ashamed,
rightly dividing the word of truth.
But shun profane and vain babblings:
for they will increase unto more ungodliness.'
(2 Tim. 2:15)

Hello there,

No one would doubt the need for the enlightenment of the Holy Spirit. Nor would any sensible person deny the value of understanding the original languages of the Scriptures. However, it is the use to which words used, were put by the Holy Spirit, that gives the most accurate interpretation of any word. That, as we all know, is achieved by comparing Scripture with Scripture. A good concordance and an open Bible is all that we need, for we all have (if we are saved by grace through faith in God's precious Son) the indwelling new nature, through which the Holy Spirit works to take of the things of Christ and make them ours.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
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That principle applies to any language the scriptures are accurately translated into .

Given the plethora of versions of the Bible each one slightly different and words used often different and the words now used of a different meaning than the original then confusion reigns more than God.
and take Hebrew where a word can be translated in two different ways HEAVEN and HEAVENS for example .The mistranslation leads to misleading and later confusion as well .
And to many other examples to mention here.

It is no wonder the church is in the state it is in . for each and all are like sheep each going their own way .
in Christ
gerald
 
Hi there,

That we may know God, in Christ, and be found in Him, is the one aim of all our study, isn't it?

The Lord delights to make Himself known to the believer, so no study of the Scripture will be fruitless. There is nothing standing in our way, except the tendency of each one of us, to lean to our own understanding and the blinding preconceptions and inherited traditions of whichever denomination we sprang from. May God enable us to lay aside all of these obstacles and come to Him with an open heart, willing to learn of Him.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
geralduk said:
IF and it is a big if ;people actually were more careful as to what they read we would save a lot of time.
I said in of and by itself learning Hebrew or Greek will not help you in understanding the scriptures as we are supposed to.
Though you might indeed know how to order a soup in Athens or soup in Jerusalem .
For proof I point to Saul of Tarsus who knew Hebrew ;it was his mother tounge was steeped in all of the scriptures but understood them not.
The very people who boast in knowing Hebrew and the Greek rather than in Him who leads us into all truth are the very ones who understand the least.

I am not debating it at all for it is a fact . Im simply tryign to get you to see or understand the matter .
I never debate the truth .
But I will give an argument to substantiate it .


in Christ
gerald
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I do not agree or accept your thinking. If the Bible was written originally in Spanish, it would then be wise to know and understand Spanish in order to glem the intended meaning. Personally I fail to see how you can not grasp that simple fact.

The fact that Paul did not understand the Scriptures is not the point. The scribes and Pharisees didn't, the disciples didn't and they didn't because they were not filled with and guided by the Holy Ghost.

John 14:26.............
"But the Comforter which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you".

Here we have a twofold work of the Holy Spirit, teaching and bringing to remembrance the things which Christ had already taught.
IT was at this point and then including Paul that God began His program for the church and Gentiles.

Gerald, To some, the truth is elusive and is imbedded in their own thoughts so that no matter how much light is shed on any subject, to them it is still not the truth.
 
Complete said:
Hi there,

That we may know God, in Christ, and be found in Him, is the one aim of all our study, isn't it?

The Lord delights to make Himself known to the believer, so no study of the Scripture will be fruitless. There is nothing standing in our way, except the tendency of each one of us, to lean to our own understanding and the blinding preconceptions and inherited traditions of whichever denomination we sprang from. May God enable us to lay aside all of these obstacles and come to Him with an open heart, willing to learn of Him.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
Click to expand...

Amen Chris. I agree with you as usual as your comments seem to always be bathed in prayer and the Holy Spirit.

If I can learn more about Christ from knowing Greek, wonderful!
If I can learn more about Christ from knowing Hebrew, wonderful!
If I can know more about Christ from knowing Spanish, wonderful!

If we can not lay aside "religion" and denominational traditions, we of all people will be the saddest because we will miss the opportunity to learn more about Christ.
 
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