The lost art of biblical argument.

You have a lot of great things to say, (y) but they're lost in the myriad of words. (n) Please learn to be concise. :LOL:
Of what good is it .If I simply state the truth ? If I do not seek to open the eyes of any to see it?
Are we not led by Him into all truth? How then can I do less than lay out the way as I was so led?

I wonder if you say the same about the letters of Paul? Not that equate mien with his . But he gave long arguments also and did he not say "Be followers of me as I am also of Christ?

in Christ
gerald
 
You have a lot of great things to say, (y) but they're lost in the myriad of words. (n) Please learn to be concise. :LOL:
How do you know if I have as you put it "great things to say" if you do not read it? How then can you ascertain they in your words are 'great' ? at what point did you stop If then you saw 'great things' why not do a better job than I in the matter ? and be "more precise"

in Christ
gerald
 
Of what good is it .If I simply state the truth ? If I do not seek to open the eyes of any to see it?
Are we not led by Him into all truth? How then can I do less than lay out the way as I was so led?

I wonder if you say the same about the letters of Paul? Not that equate mien with his . But he gave long arguments also and did he not say "Be followers of me as I am also of Christ?

in Christ
gerald
We are not in a setting like Paul, or a church building or listening to one speak for hours, we are conversing. When you stray from one rabbit hole to another, people lose track of what it is you're actually trying to say, and the topic gets strayed from the op. I'm just trying to help.

Ecclesiastes 5:7 (KJV)
For in the multitude of dreams and many words [there are] also [divers] vanities: but fear thou God.​
 
How do you know if I have as you put it "great things to say" if you do not read it? How then can you ascertain they in your words are 'great' ? at what point did you stop If then you saw 'great things' why not do a better job than I in the matter ? and be "more precise"

in Christ
gerald
Seems you can't take a compliment brother. My words indicate I read what you wrote. Please remember rule 3 and be civil.
 
@geralduk:

Sure, pray for revival, but because you love the Body of Christ and don't despise her, be a source from which revival can come.

Basically what you are doing consistently is judging local churches who are less than perfect. Do you harangue a child for being immature? Do you express scorn to one who has contracted cancer?

Love the Body. Hate sin. Bring revival to where you are. But please cease this constant misplaced judgment of the Body of Christ. Jesus sees her. Jesus loves her. Jesus is with her and will never forsake her. Soon He is coming for her...His spotless, unsoiled Bride, who adores Him and has been doing His will in the world and looking for Him eagerly.
 
By your continued use of over whelming volume of words so as to cloak and distort your agenda you have made it clear that you are unable to accept the advice of others who have attempted to help you.

I for one am unable to continue with conversing with you as it has become very tedious and challenging as I really do not know what it is you are trying to say.

For that reason I say goodbye to you Gerald and pray for you!
By your continued use of overwhelming words !?
If I spoke them it would take perhaps 10 mins to say them all . How is that overwhelming ?
I know a man of God who began preaching on Hebrews 1:1 and got as far as "GOD"< and spoke for nearly 2 hours.
on "GOD"
and a wonderful message it was too.
That I often draw on.

What people (you?) want is a quick and easy answer or statement that you ;it is thought, will then know 'what I am trying to say'
The Word of God does not 'work' that way . For one thing it is a seed said Jesus .
For another by the Words of the Lord he said "when the Spirit of truth shall come he will LEAD us into all truth ......."
That is as the good shepherd of our souls . No man arrives at or comes to the knowledge of the truth with a flash, bang wallop !
and all those false prophets and apsostles and hirelings who teach otherwise are liars.
It takes an oak tree 70 years to produce its first acorn.
God prepared John the baptist 30 years for a 6 months ministry .
God prepared the Lord Himself 33 and 6 months for a three year ministry .
God took 80 years to prepare Moses. For he who was once a somebody had to learn to be a no body before God could make him a somebody in the eyes of God.
How long I wonder did it take God to "prepare the fish" that swallowed up Jonah?
God is not in the business of instant coffee or instant saints. He is building a people who will live in rightoeusness and with Him for eternity . He is building a church that the very gates of hell will not be able to withstand .
He is building people who may well have to face the fires of an old persecution and all these hirelings who say otherwise not only are liars but when the wolves come they will flee and the sheep will be scattered,But they should take not the scriptures say the wolves will catch THEM,
My posts are challenging .,I have no doubt of that .
Tedious? well let them be for others and the many who do not write bur read and let them make their own judgment as they should.
For what man with a friend desiring to cross the busy road ,and their friend says "lest go its safe to go " will not first check to see if their friend is right and speaks the truth ?
and which driver with wife or husband next to them desirign to join the main road from a side road and their passenger says "right were free to go" , does not first check to see if they are right and speak the truth ? But will go out on their say so without first checking.
So then God demands we all make righteous judgement and never blindly follow any man.

Thus we are led to arrive at or come to a knowledge of the truth .
For if we start with the truth and with each step speak the truth then we will or can arrive at the truth .
I fear you think that if we start at the truth then that is all there is too it .
Even as many thing that to be BORNagain is the be all and end all to it as well.
Paul thought otherwise . I agree with him.

in Christ
gerald
 
Seems you can't take a compliment brother. My words indicate I read what you wrote. Please remember rule 3 and be civil.
I was ;the written word might indicate other wise .
What i said was if you saw great things in what I said and thought it could be more precise . Do then a better job than I and say it better ?
Then all would profit me included.

in Christ
gerald
 
By your continued use of overwhelming words !?
If I spoke them it would take perhaps 10 mins to say them all . How is that overwhelming ?
I know a man of God who began preaching on Hebrews 1:1 and got as far as "GOD"< and spoke for nearly 2 hours.
on "GOD"
and a wonderful message it was too.
That I often draw on.

What people (you?) want is a quick and easy answer or statement that you ;it is thought, will then know 'what I am trying to say'
The Word of God does not 'work' that way . For one thing it is a seed said Jesus .
For another by the Words of the Lord he said "when the Spirit of truth shall come he will LEAD us into all truth ......."
That is as the good shepherd of our souls . No man arrives at or comes to the knowledge of the truth with a flash, bang wallop !
and all those false prophets and apsostles and hirelings who teach otherwise are liars.
It takes an oak tree 70 years to produce its first acorn.
God prepared John the baptist 30 years for a 6 months ministry .
God prepared the Lord Himself 33 and 6 months for a three year ministry .
God took 80 years to prepare Moses. For he who was once a somebody had to learn to be a no body before God could make him a somebody in the eyes of God.
How long I wonder did it take God to "prepare the fish" that swallowed up Jonah?
God is not in the business of instant coffee or instant saints. He is building a people who will live in rightoeusness and with Him for eternity . He is building a church that the very gates of hell will not be able to withstand .
He is building people who may well have to face the fires of an old persecution and all these hirelings who say otherwise not only are liars but when the wolves come they will flee and the sheep will be scattered,But they should take not the scriptures say the wolves will catch THEM,
My posts are challenging .,I have no doubt of that .
Tedious? well let them be for others and the many who do not write bur read and let them make their own judgment as they should.
For what man with a friend desiring to cross the busy road ,and their friend says "lest go its safe to go " will not first check to see if their friend is right and speaks the truth ?
and which driver with wife or husband next to them desirign to join the main road from a side road and their passenger says "right were free to go" , does not first check to see if they are right and speak the truth ? But will go out on their say so without first checking.
So then God demands we all make righteous judgement and never blindly follow any man.

Thus we are led to arrive at or come to a knowledge of the truth .
For if we start with the truth and with each step speak the truth then we will or can arrive at the truth .
I fear you think that if we start at the truth then that is all there is too it .
Even as many thing that to be BORNagain is the be all and end all to it as well.
Paul thought otherwise . I agree with him.

in Christ
gerald
The issue is while you're writing long responses, we've moved onto other subjects and it become tiresome to read rambling paragraphs. This isn't instant messaging so people get bored waiting and move on. This isn't a blog where one subject is read with a flowing message to ponder. A forum is somewhere in between. I'm just trying to help because I see a lot of strife in conversations you're involved with and part of it is because of the length of your responses. Again, I am only trying to help.
 
I was ;the written word might indicate other wise .
What i said was if you saw great things in what I said and thought it could be more precise . Do then a better job than I and say it better ?
Then all would profit me included.

in Christ
gerald
Ok, here are some examples of words NOT needed:


and spoke for nearly 2 hours.
on "GOD"
and a wonderful message it was too.
That I often draw on.
This whole thing could have ended right there...

and

No man arrives at or comes to the knowledge of the truth with a flash, bang wallop !
and all those false prophets and apsostles and hirelings who teach otherwise are liars.
and

My posts are challenging .,I have no doubt of that .
Tedious? well let them be for others and the many who do not write bur read and let them make their own judgment as they should.
this makes no sense in this topic...

For what man with a friend desiring to cross the busy road ,and their friend says "lest go its safe to go " will not first check to see if their friend is right and speaks the truth ?
and which driver with wife or husband next to them desirign to join the main road from a side road and their passenger says "right were free to go" , does not first check to see if they are right and speak the truth ? But will go out on their say so without first checking.
These types of comments are demeaning and not helpful in your quest.

I fear you think that if we start at the truth then that is all there is too it .
I hope these examples help.
 
"Open rebuke is better than secret love" Proverbs 27:5
"Faithful are the wounds of a friend ,but the kisses of the enemy are deceitful" Proverbs 26:7

I suppose it is easy to jump to conclusions as to the attitude and the spirit of the person writing .In particular when reproof and correction are given. and it is unusual to so well express something that a right spirit and attitude is clearly manifest in what is written.
I have only come across it once in this forum and it was by another and with whom I often disagree with .
I apologise then if my posts are perceived as neither encouraging or with meekness.
That is my lack .
Nevertheless as I endevour to take each post replied to mine in the best possible light when possible so I hope others will do with mine.
I dont know how to be corrected or reproved can be ever 'liked' or worded in such a way as to make it 'pleasant'
But tell me when the Lord replied to Peter "get behind me satan for ye speak not of the things of God " Was that a word of encouragement or rebuke?
Should any error and wrong thinking be "encouraged"?
Should scripture twisted or missaplied or out of context be also encouraged?
Or should they be reproved?
God is not a tyrant and simply imposes HIS will on all who disagree with him . for the truth is not because he is so BIG and ALMIGHTY no oen can gain say him or say nay .
Nor is He or the truth democratic and it is only when we all agree or the majority of Gods people agree as to what the truth is does that make it true .
but does not God say "let us reason together.....?
Does that mean we can all go in every direction and reason any thing we like or are we to make righteous judgment?
Did he not at that time he said it or another show how the children of Israel saw or perceived and reasoned things and then show how reasoned and perceived things? and then said make righteous judgment .
Was than not the great fault of Adam and Eve ?
For they SAW that the tree was good to eat and she reasoned thus it would make her wise .
and is not the long awful catologue of chapters in the book of Kings and Chronicles all begin with "and they did evil in the sight of God"? Or nearly all.

How is it they were given for our ensample but we give little thought of their errors.
It is the world that says you are arrogant if you say you know the truth .
Jesus said by Him who leads us into all truth we shall "know the truth"
and that knowing is not knowing ABOUT the truth .
It is the 'knowing' of "Adam knowing his wife Eve" and others.
It is experientally knowing the truth . We are to drink from the source not 2/3/4/5 hand by others.
That is not knowing the truth .
"Gods goodness is past" finding out it is so written.
yet the scriptures say "Oh taste and see that the Lord is good"
God is good to all men . Thank God.
But men do not know it .
God sends the rain upon the just and the unjust.
even the tares rejoice when it rains .
I understand about what you said about the tares and true it is .
But I am not talking to the tares .
Tell me when the last church said "I am rich increased in goods and in need of nothing" rev 2/3

Did the Lord encourage them in their perception of themselves and reasoning?
or did He say "Thou art poor wretched and blind and naked and you dont even know it......."
did he not THEN say and encourage them or "I council thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be (truly) rich and white raiment that thou may be clothed etc ..........."

The spirit of God says TO the church "behold I stand at the door and knock" The church says nay that is not for us but for the tares and the world .
But it is TO THE CHURCH .
There is then a very great LACK in the church to which it has no knowledge of and even denies .
Purely because it has taken scripture and misapplied them.
The knockign on the door then is a call to the WHOLE church .Not to the world or the tares .But to the church .
"The field said Jesus is the WORLD " The seed is the Word of God."
Then the scripture pertaining to the tares and the wheat primarily is about the world we live in where the wheat and tares grow togther .
The tares are NOT in the church and if you say they are they should not be .
That too then shows the state of the church .
But primarily the tares and the wheat grow in the field which is the world .
The church is not made up of tares and wheat .
It is made up of wheat!
It is a lie of the devil then that the church has accepted by taking scripture and disjointing it .
Thus the knocking on the door is on the door of the CHURCH and thus a call to the wholoe church to repent and return to historical and biblical christianity . For we must face the fact that the Lord is not coming for a church that is anything LESS than what could be called the Apostolic church or of the book of acts .
God is light .
and thus the closer we get to God the more he reveals us about ourselves .
I say again . It only took then 40 DAYS to get OUT from Egypt ;BORNagain and to the promised land .
How is it then that the church has accepted the 40 YEARS as the NORM where they were NOT more than conquerers till they crossed Jordan .
But rather despite God not having left them or forsaken them and gave them miracles every day and twice on Saturday for 40 YEARS . They were sill out of the will of God and in disobedience !
and wandered 'aimlessly '(?) or round in circles till they all perished in the wilderness save the two who were faithful.

We rob ourselves and indced in a sense God also by believing the wrong thing and not the Word of God.
I once was given a job to do of clearing a ditch by the side of a boggy field where in was a power cable that went from a radio station to the power source.
It had initially been put on top of the hedge but the farmer had come along and cut through it when he trimmed the hedge .
It was my job to cut down all the thorns and thistles and brambles and overgrown weeds and things that not only filled the ditch but also the inside edge of the ditch .
It took me three days of hard work. I had a perfect tool for the job ,nevertheless my hands were scratched and pierced with thorns as I worked down the fields ditch.
The objective was to so fix the cable on supports in the ditch and clear of any obstruction that there was a clear link between the power source and the speaker . and by the grace of God and the strength of the Almighty .I did not stop save for three breaks all day for three days ..
What ahs this got to do with our conversation?
As I did the work I was led to think about the church and what I was faced with was the state of the church.
Where there was no visible and manifest link between the source of our power and ourselves save in word only .
You say it does not need to be so?
"God has put this power in earthen vessels so that the excelency of the power might be seen to be of God and not of ourselves".
The church still needs to have its eyes opened to see and understand the exceddign greatness of His power that is towards us who believes even the same mighty power that raised up Jesus from the dead"
The church has reduced the GREAT salvation of God to beign BORNagain the getting out of Egypt.
Great though that is and was . It is NOT the end but only the beginning .
But many have been misled to think THAT then is the exceedign greatness of his power and that only .
But look again . Was not Paul praying for CHRISTIANS?
That OUR eyes may be opened of our understanding that we might UNDERSTAND and take hold of and grasp what is the exceedign greatness of his power..........................
There are so many thorns and thistles etc of false teaching missaplied scripture and the rest it has obscured this fact . For by many to be BORNagain is the be all and end all of every thing .
But what baby in the natural is expected to stay a baby?
How much the more then of those who are BORNagain?
was it not to "BABES in Christ " that Paul was adressing as "yet carnal"?

be it understood . I am AGAINST every false doctrine and the rest that misLEAD people away from God and that robs them of their crowns or what is theirs "IN Christ"
I will then never encourage such folly.
But rather not only show it to be wrong but also why as also show what is right and why .
I lay my arguments out both for and against .
For all to see .
if they find fault with the argument then let it be so proved one way or the other .
If they find fault with me .I find far more than they . But let them not reject the truth simply because it is I that speak it .
and not them or one they approve of.
But prove it in a manner that is worthy of God .yea or nay .
Not with accusations denials and a couple of scriptures more often than not misapplied.

Do I know all? or as some have said a know all .
No.
But Jesus said "ye will know the truth "
and I know the difference between a truth and a lie and by Him the Spirit of truth "the spirit of error"
Some will say what matters If I am against what they perceive as the truth. It would matter not if it what I oppose was the truth save against me .
But if I speak the truth and prove it .What then do they oppose?
Storms are coming to this land the like of which we have not seen for 400 years or more . and the people of God need to be prepared and ready to bear witness of the truth . If they dont know it as they should how will any fair?
"Little children ye know the father and your sins are forgiven you" Praise the Lord. But little children are easily deceived if they so stay .
"Ye young men the Word of God abides in you richly and ye have overcome the wicked one " A subject not often adressed .
"Ye fathers ye know Him who is from the beginning "
The church does not know Him who is from the beginning for in the main it does not believe Him who "in the beginning"
They have but heard of him.
Jesus came primarily " that we know HIM the one true God and Jesus whom thou hast sent" john 17
To that end then I have come and bear witness of.
in Christ
gerald

I
Hello @geralduk

Your zeal is not in doubt, your sincerity, or your motivation, nor the love for God and His Church which fills your heart. Forgive me for giving you the impression that this was not the case.

You are dearly loved of God, and precious in His sight. May His perfect will be done both in and through not only yourself, but also in and through we who share this forum space with you.

We each one have His written Word to hand, to read and study for ourselves: that we may grow in grace and truth and in the knowledge of Him. That is an individual responsibility, not a corporate one: for we have each, in Christ, received a new nature, through which the Holy Spirit works to conform us to the image of His Son.

We can only pray that as each one fellowships with the Father, and the Son, through the Spirit, that the fellowship with each other will be both in Spirit and in Truth, and that God's light may shine outward to the world: that His will be fully done; to the praise and glory of His Name.

In Christ Jesus
Chris
 
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By your continued use of overwhelming words !?
If I spoke them it would take perhaps 10 mins to say them all . How is that overwhelming ?
I know a man of God who began preaching on Hebrews 1:1 and got as far as "GOD"< and spoke for nearly 2 hours.
on "GOD"
and a wonderful message it was too.
That I often draw on.

What people (you?) want is a quick and easy answer or statement that you ;it is thought, will then know 'what I am trying to say'
The Word of God does not 'work' that way . For one thing it is a seed said Jesus .
For another by the Words of the Lord he said "when the Spirit of truth shall come he will LEAD us into all truth ......."
That is as the good shepherd of our souls . No man arrives at or comes to the knowledge of the truth with a flash, bang wallop !
and all those false prophets and apsostles and hirelings who teach otherwise are liars.
It takes an oak tree 70 years to produce its first acorn.
God prepared John the baptist 30 years for a 6 months ministry .
God prepared the Lord Himself 33 and 6 months for a three year ministry .
God took 80 years to prepare Moses. For he who was once a somebody had to learn to be a no body before God could make him a somebody in the eyes of God.
How long I wonder did it take God to "prepare the fish" that swallowed up Jonah?
God is not in the business of instant coffee or instant saints. He is building a people who will live in rightoeusness and with Him for eternity . He is building a church that the very gates of hell will not be able to withstand .
He is building people who may well have to face the fires of an old persecution and all these hirelings who say otherwise not only are liars but when the wolves come they will flee and the sheep will be scattered,But they should take not the scriptures say the wolves will catch THEM,
My posts are challenging .,I have no doubt of that .
Tedious? well let them be for others and the many who do not write bur read and let them make their own judgment as they should.
For what man with a friend desiring to cross the busy road ,and their friend says "lest go its safe to go " will not first check to see if their friend is right and speaks the truth ?
and which driver with wife or husband next to them desirign to join the main road from a side road and their passenger says "right were free to go" , does not first check to see if they are right and speak the truth ? But will go out on their say so without first checking.
So then God demands we all make righteous judgement and never blindly follow any man.

Thus we are led to arrive at or come to a knowledge of the truth .
For if we start with the truth and with each step speak the truth then we will or can arrive at the truth .
I fear you think that if we start at the truth then that is all there is too it .
Even as many thing that to be BORNagain is the be all and end all to it as well.
Paul thought otherwise . I agree with him.

in Christ
gerald
I refer you to comment #100.
 
The church is not formidable while it is friends with the world .While it seeks to have influence in it and be loved by it.

" I pray for them , I pray not for the world,but for them which thou hast given me , for they are thine.
and all thine are mine and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee Holy Father, keep through thine own name ,those whom thou hast given me ,that they may be one , as we are .
While I was in the world I kept them in thy name; those that thou gavest me I have kept ,and none of them is lost ,save the son of perdition that the scriptures might be fulfilled.
And now I come to thee, and these things I speak in the world that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
NOTE:-
I have given them thy word,and the world hateth them,because they are not of this world, even as I am not of this world .

I pray not that thou shouldst take them out of the world ,but that thou should keep them from the evil.

THEY ARE NOT OF THIS WORLD EVEN AS I AM NOT OF THIS WORLD.

Sanctify them through the truth ,thy word is truth.

As thou has sent me into the world ,even so have I sent them into the world................... John 17 The real Lords prayer .

If you recall I was answering your statement that the church in your eyes :'is growing in strength and influence in the world'

Tell me did the Lord grow in strength and influence in the world? Or was he despised and rejected by the world?
Is it not written "the world was made by him and the world knew him not? He came unto His own and his own received him not?
What makes you think the churches business is to be strong in the world and be growing in influence in it?
When the Lord said we would be hated even as he was hated by the world?

You then replied with a great hurrah that had no bearing on what I had replied to.
Our Job is not to gain influence with the world at all but to bear witness to the power and resurection of the Lord and to preach Christ and him crucified yea and risen from the dead.

It is not to make the church 'people friendly' or rather sinner friendly to the extent that sin is condoned yea even accepted and agreed with .
It is not a haven for the weak . But it is where the weak are made" strong in the Lord and in the strength of His might "
It is not a haven for sinners . But sinners made righteous.
It is not a haven for the idol worshippers but where God alone is God .
It is not a haven for those who are more willing to cling to their old ways than to cling to Him who is the way.
It is not a haven for the world but it is a place where the world has no place in it .
It is not a haven for soothsayers but for men who speak the truth .
It is not a haven for hirelings . false prophets, self proclaimed apostles , charlatans and the unclean spirits.
It is not a haven for doctrines of devils.nor seducing spirits.
It is not a haven for anything that is not of God .
It is the temple of the living God who inhabits eternity as also the humble and contrite heart .
It is the temple where men might find the truth .
The salt of the earth . That makes people thirsty on the one hand and smart on the other .

The church is a prodigal church and since the reformation has been so .
For it has clearly not yet arrived at Our Father's house .
For we are not or have not come "to a unity of the faith"
But instead many are seeking a unity at the expense of truth .

"Sanctify them through the truth .Thy Word is truth "
The Church which is Christs is not of this world even as the Lord its head was not of this world .
You cannot COME in the name of the Lord if you do not GO to the Lord in the first place.
For if you are not FROM the Father how then can you come in His name?

Many a church comes in its own name and promotes itself .

"He that speaketh of himself , seeketh his own glory;but he that seeketh his glory that sent him,the same is true,and no unrighteousness is in him" John 17 :18.

Isiah was indeed a prophet of God and not "out of his own imagination " Yet in Isiah 6 where in the year King Hussiah died he saw the Lord high and lifted up and His train filled the temple ...."
He confessed "woe is me for I am a man of unclean lips ........................"
The church does not know God .It has perhaps at best "heard of him"
For it too would wail much the same thing as Issiah .
If you doubt that then look at John even the beloved who when he turned at the voice behind him saw the Lord whom he loved . he fell down as a man dead. Which only the Lord could revive him.
It took a feiry peice of coal from the alter to touch his lips to make him ready for that which was to follow .
Can you imagine how tender the lips are to be touched by a live piece of coal?

Then a voice said who will go for us and Isiah said send me .
I say again .the church does not know God in the main it has but "heard of Him.
Job had but "heard of Him" but it had so transformed his life that God could point to him and say "consider my servant Job"

Yet when at the end God began to reveal himself to Job he too confessed the truth . I have heard of thee but now mine eyes seeth thee ,"I REPENT IN DUST AND ASHES......."

The church cannot be an effective witness IN the world (but not of it) unless each member of it has at least become as a young man in whom the Word of God dwelleth richly and who has overcome the wicked one " and onward to knowing " Him who is from the beginning "
The church needs a revival and it will cost but if counts the cost it will not get one .
A revival from heaven .Not one cooked up by flashing lights rock music and performing manikins who perform and "make merchandise of Gods people "
A revival from heaven is not of man or of the world . it comes from heaven and leads men to God not to have influence in the world .
The world does not need to be influenced it needs to repent!

in Christ
gerald
The Church of Jesus Christ is not friends with the world. Some churches are, but not the Church.
 
The world : Definition.

Society organised outside the will of God.

If the world is in the church it is because it is organised outside the will of God .
"Ye have by your traditions have made the Word of God of none effect "
That we have such a blind adherence to the idea that if you know Greek and Hebrew you understand the Word of God which is a growing and prevailing and thus ruling idea in the minds of many of Gods people is the world .
For Saul of Tarsus knew them both and had the original texts more than any .But still did not understand the scriptures. So why anybody should boast in their perceived "better understanding" I have no idea for he had by that more than anybody.
Great if you do or can .But lean not upon your understanding of Greek and Hebrew but trust in the Lord who leads us into all truth .


In Christ
gerald
 
The world : Definition.

Society organised outside the will of God.

If the world is in the church it is because it is organised outside the will of God .
"Ye have by your traditions have made the Word of God of none effect "
That we have such a blind adherence to the idea that if you know Greek and Hebrew you understand the Word of God which is a growing and prevailing and thus ruling idea in the minds of many of Gods people is the world .
For Saul of Tarsus knew them both and had the original texts more than any .But still did not understand the scriptures. So why anybody should boast in their perceived "better understanding" I have no idea for he had by that more than anybody.
Great if you do or can .But lean not upon your understanding of Greek and Hebrew but trust in the Lord who leads us into all truth .


In Christ
gerald
The understanding we have is from the work of the precious Holy Spirit. Heed His voice and you will know and understand the word.
 
The world : Definition.

Society organised outside the will of God.

If the world is in the church it is because it is organised outside the will of God .
"Ye have by your traditions have made the Word of God of none effect "
That we have such a blind adherence to the idea that if you know Greek and Hebrew you understand the Word of God which is a growing and prevailing and thus ruling idea in the minds of many of Gods people is the world .
For Saul of Tarsus knew them both and had the original texts more than any .But still did not understand the scriptures. So why anybody should boast in their perceived "better understanding" I have no idea for he had by that more than anybody.
Great if you do or can .But lean not upon your understanding of Greek and Hebrew but trust in the Lord who leads us into all truth .


In Christ
gerald
Many words are lost in translation. Especially words buried in theology. I tell people, get a dictionary and learn what those words really mean, not what the church says they mean. Faith is a great example. When someone says "Have faith" the implication is blind trust. But that's not what faith means in the Greek nor in the Hebrew.
 
Many words are lost in translation. Especially words buried in theology. I tell people, get a dictionary and learn what those words really mean, not what the church says they mean. Faith is a great example. When someone says "Have faith" the implication is blind trust. But that's not what faith means in the Greek nor in the Hebrew.
What I love about God is that he is neither Greek or Jew ,Chinese or Thai .
That not only did he inspire men what to write in Greek He also inspired men what to write in Hebrew.
he then can very easily give men the understanding of His Word enough to translate accurately into any language He sees fit.
He has however chosen English as the primary language of His Holy Word.
This translation is about 400 years old and has been tried tested and proved in the fires of great adversity and persecution. God has manifestly blessed it in indisuptable revivals of God .

Some claim that they have a 'better understanding' yet consistantly mistranslate of even the simplest words. and passages.
Three times in these forums words of simple English and meaning have been denied on the 'evidence' of the Greek or Hebrew.
But in each case were and still are unwilling to face the fact that their and others 'interpretations are wrong simply because while the original langauge has more than one way to translate it. They and others insist there was only one .
Then having proved they are mistaken and those who have translated various versions of the Bible also mistaken.
despite the testimony of two witnesses and really there is another who is not visible . They hold to their learning which in fact is a grave lack. and add confusion to their confusion and in others if believed in doing so .

I hold and will not relent of the matter that God is bigger than us all and HIS understanding of ANY langauge is perfect .
I also hold and will not relent of it that the Spirit of truth will not only lead us into all truth but will also by Him "show us the spirit of error" Whether it be in English, Greek , Hebrew or Chinese.
and every child of God who is in submission to the Holy Spirit and is led by Him will know when the truth is spoken or not because the Holy Spirit will bare witness with their spirit the truth of it or NAY .
I have no problem with any sincere child of God not grasping some truth first time around .Or not understanding it at all either due to maturity or some other lack , But whether a person is young in the faith or older in the faith the same Spirit will bear witness to the truth as it is in Christ .
and they will not or should not oppose it . For they know it si the truth but needs must then get the understanding of it .
If it si otherwise . Then the person is "yet carnal " a "babe in Christ" who needs once again to given the milk of the Word.
For the carnal cannot receive the things of God . Nor take strong meat .
Indeed to be carnally minded is to be at emnity with God" .
So I utterly reject the idea that we have not nor can have an accurate translation of the Holy Bible .

I have to face the fact that carnal men at best and worldly men at best have presumed to translate the Bible and have done so accordign to their will and their understanding and have produced as corrupt versions as they are themselves.
and then have justified themselves of their versions as making it impossible to accurately translate the scriptures.
Well they are their own witnessess .Yet they still boast in their 'better understanding'

It is the Spirit of God that knows the mind of God and if any man wants to learn what any word in the Bible means then use the Bible and see what it means by it .Not go to the world .
Words are expressions of thought .
and it is the Spirit of God that knoweth the things of God not man .
and if man would know them he must needs be in submission to the Spirit of God .
and if he is then as Jesus promised "HE will lead us into all truth ..............."

in Christ
gerald
 
We need to live up to 2 Timothy 2:15
Study and do your best to present yourself to God approved, a workman [tested by trial] who has no reason to be ashamed, accurately handling and skillfully teaching the word of truth.
 
What I love about God is that he is neither Greek or Jew ,Chinese or Thai .
Amen! God gave us His word in Greek and Hebrew, not English or Spanish or French or Chinese. God's word is so powerful that it can withstand any translations by sinful men. Even if we had them originally in our own native tongue, it still takes God to interpret what He wrote so man cannot be haughty about it. I praise God that He's given me the tools to do my own homework and read what He originally wrote. I don't even limit myself to the 66 "chosen" books men have selected. God bless you Gerald. I'm glad you're content in your beliefs.
 
Amen! God gave us His word in Greek and Hebrew, not English or Spanish or French or Chinese. God's word is so powerful that it can withstand any translations by sinful men. Even if we had them originally in our own native tongue, it still takes God to interpret what He wrote so man cannot be haughty about it. I praise God that He's given me the tools to do my own homework and read what He originally wrote. I don't even limit myself to the 66 "chosen" books men have selected. God bless you Gerald. I'm glad you're content in your beliefs.
You misunderstand me I think.
God can give both the wisdom and the understanding to a man to accurately translate the Word of God into any langauge he deems fit.
I can by the Spirit of God understand the scriptures in English as a Greek or a Jew can understand them by the same Spirit .
That Saul of Tarsus had Hebrew as his mother tounge and knew Greek as well did not save him from his grave error and lack of understanding of the scriptures . He so did not understand the scriptures he persecuted the church and agreed with Stpephens stoning as Gods will.
The Pharasees Saducees and the Drs of the law were as faultless (?) in Hebrew as he was yet as Jesus said of many of them. "Ye do boast in the scriptures but know not Him of whom they speak of"
That people claiming to understand Greek both misunderstood the scriptures and asserted I did not understand them because I knew not the scriptures were then by another proved to have not understood the Greek. Still hold to their error shows how foolish we can be when we lean upon our own understanding (f Greek and Hebrew say) than trust in Him who leads us into all truth .
I am therefore content in HIM rather than my beliefs .For a man can believe an error and be content in it .
My trust is in the Lord to lead me into all truth as also that "I may know the spirit of error" Whether speaking Greek ,Hebrew ,English or Chinese . as much as recognise by Him the truth when I hear it or see it.
For it is by His grace and without Him we can do nothing.
Do I understand all the scriptures? No.

Some took 20 years some 10 years and some 6 months some I 'see' straight away . But I have not found my Bible wanting . It is an accurate translation into English. Though many now despise and reject it to their error .
It is a weapon , a sword that has never failed me. It is always right and when I have not believed it .It is I who is always wrong . So people will need to get used to the idea if I reject their 'translation ' when it contradicts my English one . For I have that it is always their translation that is wrong rather than my English.
So I give thanks to 'Moose ' Not because he so much proved me right , but because he was willing to be both impartial and "honourable" to have looked up the scriptures in Greek to see"if these things be true or not "and then to publish them here his findings .
I do thank God also that the conviction in my own spirit that while not knowing Greek knew that my English translation was right and others mistaken in this matter confirms what the scriptures say to the glory of God . That we are NOT to lean upon our own understanding (whether in Greek ,Hebrew English or Chinese) but to trust in the Lord to lead us into all truth .
"My ways are not your ways says the Lord and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts "
Words are but expressions of thought . In that regard then the Holy Word of God must and does have a higher level of expression of thought than our own .Its logic and reasoning then is also not of man but of God .
Yet its logic is such that it is not illogical but can be followed and its reasoning is not as such that it is unreasonable and cannot be accepted. But it does mean as the Word of God says .That "the Spirit of God knoweth the things of God" and in another place "knoweth the mind of God" Then the thoughts that were behind the words .
if then we are to truly understand the scriptures it is and must only be by HIM who inspired men to write it and gave both the wisdom and the ability of some to accurately translate it .
For in as much it was vital to have the Holy Spirit to inspire men so to write the scriptures." For ALL scripture was inspired by God ......." Which is different from 'God breathed' which is the new buzz word . so by the same measure He is needed to understand what is written.
I am therefore content for" I know in whom I have believed " and He has been faithful to His Word to me long before I knew Him. and more so since I have . But not really ; its simply because I am more aware of it now that I know Him and can recognise His Word in action both in my life and in the life of others .Be they saved ; children of God or not.
A chair has four legs and it is stable because it si four square .
and our faith is built on the foundation of the what is called the four Gospels but in truth there is only one Gospel . Of Mathew Luke and John.
The foundations then of the Apostles but also of the Prophets which is the Old testament . Jesus being the corner stone .
If a building is built on a foursquare foundation it is as solid as a rock immovable .
Or you can or as the scriptures have it as another thing "as a tree planted by the rivers of living water "
I by the grace of God have been grafted into a 'family' tree whos roots are in God the Creator of all things even Him who si from the beginning . I do not deserve it I have never warranted such favour , But nevertheless I am what I am by the grace of God .
A tree may indeed sway somewhat in the wind .But it is not going anywhere .
So too is any child of God ;true BORN of the water which si the Word of God and the Spirit . I was not 'saved' by the Greek or indeed by the Hebrew . But I was saved by God who in great mercy and love led me to understand His love for me even me.
I have since learned in a greater measure the greatness of that love even to or in the same measure how great is the Salvation God has so wrought as also in me .
But I was saved or came to understand both of that love and that salvation in English .
As any Greek Jew or Chinese can also in their own tounge.
I do not say nor ever have ;dont learn Hebrew or Greek or English or Chinese . But dont lean so much upon your understanding of them that you do not trust the Lord who leads us into all truth .
Some have declared that you cannot accurately translate the scriptures . well the same have been proved that they cant /dont understand the original language either . So not only do they not know the Lord as much as they think they do they are mistaken also about how you can translate and understand the scriptures .
I hold to the 66 books also . and for another reason that there is enough there to satisfy any man and who have not yet understood it all yet ;to think of adding more to them of the most dubious roots.

In Christ
gerald