The Raptures (Harpazo) of the Scriptures

[Abdicate]

Thanks Euphemia and Abdicate! My faith is stronger now.
The other lie I've heard about the Rapture is, "Hope for Pre- but prepare for Post-" Have any of you heard this too?

Yes, because there are two gatherings when Jesus returns, hence the confusion.

Matthew 24:31 (KJV)

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

Mark 13:26-27 (KJV)

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.​

and

Matthew 13:41-43 (KJV)

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

The first one are the remnant of the 144,000 male virgin Jews that survive the tribulation and those that listened and obeyed the call of God and didn't take the mark of the beast AND all those in Christ even in heaven so we are all together in one place with Jesus. The second gathering is to remove all the offend from God's kingdom and the devil and his followers are bound for 1000 years during Jesus' rule on earth.

Now you understand why people call for differing "raptures".

 

[Penion]

Yes, because there are two gatherings when Jesus returns, hence the confusion.

Matthew 24:31 (KJV)

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

Mark 13:26-27 (KJV)

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.​

and

Matthew 13:41-43 (KJV)

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

The first one are the remnant of the 144,000 male virgin Jews that survive the tribulation and those that listened and obeyed the call of God and didn't take the mark of the beast AND all those in Christ even in heaven so we are all together in one place with Jesus. The second gathering is to remove all the offend from God's kingdom and the devil and his followers are bound for 1000 years during Jesus' rule on earth.

Now you understand why people call for differing "raptures".

Thanks Abdicate! I guess this also eliminates the "Mid-trib" rapture as well?

 

[Major]

I listened to the Video. I became troubled when the narrator said that Barak Hussein Obama was the Antichrist. Donald Trump says he has proof that Obama was born in Africa, not the U.S.

Anyway, Silk, you are very well studied. If I say 2017, and Abdicate says 2024, thats a span of 7 years. A coincidence, no more than that!

I would really advise against ANY date setting. The Scripture says that ONLY the Father knows and I for one think we all need to let it happen. Setting dates of any kind can lead to confusion and disappointment.

 

[Major]

Yes, because there are two gatherings when Jesus returns, hence the confusion.

Matthew 24:31 (KJV)

And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

Mark 13:26-27 (KJV)

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.​

and

Matthew 13:41-43 (KJV)

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.​

The first one are the remnant of the 144,000 male virgin Jews that survive the tribulation and those that listened and obeyed the call of God and didn't take the mark of the beast AND all those in Christ even in heaven so we are all together in one place with Jesus. The second gathering is to remove all the offend from God's kingdom and the devil and his followers are bound for 1000 years during Jesus' rule on earth.

Now you understand why people call for differing "raptures".

Could it be that Matt, 24:31 and Mark 13:26-27 are NOT the Rapture but are in fact the actual 2nd Coming of Christ and are parallel verses?

It has been my understanding that The Lord HIMSELF comes at the Rapture for His children and angels are not involved as are seen in Matt. Could it be that Jesus is talking about the gathering of the Nation of Israel at the end of the Tribulation?

 

[Major]

Is it true that the church had no doctrine of the Rapture until Darby (1838)?

I see that several have already answered your question. May I add that it seems that there were some early church fathers who date all the way back to 400 AD.

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" .
(On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/

Irenaeus (c. 180) made a pre-trib rapture statement and speaks of the rapture: ......
"the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation]".

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."
(Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, The Ante-Nicene Fathers: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers down to a.d. 325).

 

[Silk]

I would really advise against ANY date setting. The Scripture says that ONLY the Father knows and I for one think we all need to let it happen. Setting dates of any kind can lead to confusion and disappointment.

I think? everyone agrees with those sentiments.
Did you read Abdicate's post 123? It says in part "Tishri is the name of the seventh month – originally was the first month until the Exodus when God changed the first month to Nisan, Exodus 12:2. Tishri 1 is when the calendar year changes number. It is not connected to any historical event, even after Jesus’ time on earth. The same is said for the Day of Atonement. Tishri 1 is also known as “the day in which no man can know the day or the hour” because it must be proclaimed. A hint from Jesus’ own words perhaps, Matthew 24:36. First, two witnesses need to see the new moon. Then the council will determine if the day (1 Tishri) falls on a Sabbath or causes any other feast day to fall on a Sabbath. If so, it is postponed until the next day or even a second day. Hence the reason no one can know the day or the hour! Now 1 Tishri, because of the diaspora, dispersing of the Jews to Babylon, this day is also called the One Long Day because they’d light fires to notify the next hill who’d like a fire to the next hill, all the way to Babylon. As such, no one knows the day or the hour in which it started. Even the devil doesn’t know when it begins, 1 1 Corinthians 2:8

I'm thinking the convergent signs seem to be there (for me) and while I know intellectually that it's unwise to anticipate, I doubt I will get any sleep on the Feast of Trumpets or Tabernacles. My faith is the same whatever happens.

Still..........

 

[Abdicate]

Thanks Abdicate! I guess this also eliminates the "Mid-trib" rapture as well?

There is one, yes... the Two Witnesses

 

[Abdicate]

I think? everyone agrees with those sentiments.
Did you read Abdicate's post 123? It says in part "Tishri is the name of the seventh month – originally was the first month until the Exodus when God changed the first month to Nisan, Exodus 12:2. Tishri 1 is when the calendar year changes number. It is not connected to any historical event, even after Jesus’ time on earth. The same is said for the Day of Atonement. Tishri 1 is also known as “the day in which no man can know the day or the hour” because it must be proclaimed. A hint from Jesus’ own words perhaps, Matthew 24:36. First, two witnesses need to see the new moon. Then the council will determine if the day (1 Tishri) falls on a Sabbath or causes any other feast day to fall on a Sabbath. If so, it is postponed until the next day or even a second day. Hence the reason no one can know the day or the hour! Now 1 Tishri, because of the diaspora, dispersing of the Jews to Babylon, this day is also called the One Long Day because they’d light fires to notify the next hill who’d like a fire to the next hill, all the way to Babylon. As such, no one knows the day or the hour in which it started. Even the devil doesn’t know when it begins, 1 1 Corinthians 2:8

I'm thinking the convergent signs seem to be there (for me) and while I know intellectually that it's unwise to anticipate, I doubt I will get any sleep on the Feast of Trumpets or Tabernacles. My faith is the same whatever happens.

Still..........

Don't forget, there's always two days on the planet at any given time due to 32 time zones! So literally, no one can know the day or the hour! Of course too, Jesus said in Luke 21:34 that if we're watchful, that day won't come by surprise, and then Paul says that we are not of the darkness that the day come as a theif, 1 Thess 5:4. Both chapters 4 & 5 he says to comfort one another with these words. Glory to God!!! For those that don't believe in the rapture, what comfort is there in these if they mean we're to go into tribulation?

 

[Penion]

There is one, yes... the Two Witnesses

Did Jesus raise from the dead Moses and Eljah in the Transfiguration?
I believe that Moses and Elijah are the two Witnesses.
A book I read said that, just as John the Baptist was Elijah-like, but not Elijah, the two Witnesses will not be the literal ones but modern men with their powers. Please help me on this.

 

[Penion]

I see that several have already answered your question. May I add that it seems that there were some early church fathers who date all the way back to 400 AD.

"For all the saints and Elect of God are gathered, prior to the Tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins" .
(On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, by Ephraem the Syrian, A.D. 373).
http://www.grantjeffrey.com/

Irenaeus (c. 180) made a pre-trib rapture statement and speaks of the rapture: ......
"the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this [the tribulation]".

"And therefore, when in the end the Church shall be suddenly caught up from this, it is said, There shall be tribulation such as has not been since the beginning, neither shall be. For this is the last contest of the righteous, in which, when they overcome they are crowned with incorruption."
(Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, The Ante-Nicene Fathers: Translations of the Writings of the Fathers down to a.d. 325).

Major,
Thanks for clearing up things! The faithful dead will rise to meet us in the air. What a day of Glory for God.

 

[Euphemia]

Did Jesus raise from the dead Moses and Eljah in the Transfiguration?
I believe that Moses and Elijah are the two Witnesses.
A book I read said that, just as John the Baptist was Elijah-like, but not Elijah, the two Witnesses will not be the literal ones but modern men with their powers. Please help me on this.

Seeing as there are (at least) two people in heaven now who have been translated physically there without dying---Enoch and Elijah (some people believe Moses was resurrected and translated also, and I tend to that belief also, due to the dispute concerning his body)---I believe that Enoch, representing the people before the Law and Elijah, representing the people of the Law, are the two witnesses, saved from physical death to actually experience it during this special time, and to be resurrected before the watching, unbelieving world.

 

[Abdicate]

Did Jesus raise from the dead Moses and Eljah in the Transfiguration?
I believe that Moses and Elijah are the two Witnesses.
A book I read said that, just as John the Baptist was Elijah-like, but not Elijah, the two Witnesses will not be the literal ones but modern men with their powers. Please help me on this.

No He did not raise Moses from the dead. Saints are already part of eternity (even right now, not just after death) so when Moses stepped into the presence of God on Mt. Saini he was in eternity talking to God. Moses was talking to Jesus on the Mt. of Transfiguration at the same “time”. Elijah was years after Moses and he too was there after he was taken into eternity alive. Moses, in his normal time, died. If God were to bring someone from heaven to earth as the Two Witnesses, they would be Enoch and Elijah, as they are the only two people to not have died that are in heaven. Even Jesus died! But I don’t think that they will be forced back to earth to suffer after having been in heaven. I believe it will be like you said that like the spirit of Elijah was on John, so will the Spirit be on two men who are called to be the Two Witnesses because they will be killed by the AC and lay dead for 3.5 days while the world celebrates.

 

[Major]

Major,
Thanks for clearing up things! The faithful dead will rise to meet us in the air. What a day of Glory for God.

God bless you and thanks for the compliment.

Remember, the DEAD raise first then we who are alive will be caught up to meet Him in the air.

 

[Major]

No He did not raise Moses from the dead. Saints are already part of eternity (even right now, not just after death) so when Moses stepped into the presence of God on Mt. Saini he was in eternity talking to God. Moses was talking to Jesus on the Mt. of Transfiguration at the same “time”. Elijah was years after Moses and he too was there after he was taken into eternity alive. Moses, in his normal time, died. If God were to bring someone from heaven to earth as the Two Witnesses, they would be Enoch and Elijah, as they are the only two people to not have died that are in heaven. Even Jesus died! But I don’t think that they will be forced back to earth to suffer after having been in heaven. I believe it will be like you said that like the spirit of Elijah was on John, so will the Spirit be on two men who are called to be the Two Witnesses because they will be killed by the AC and lay dead for 3.5 days while the world celebrates.

I agree with you. I do not believe it will be Elijah and Enoch BUT someone who will be LIKE them and come in the power they had in that they can stop the rain and contol the elements ....IMO!

Revelation 11:3........
“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Here is another thought. Have you thought that IF Elijah and Enoch were brought back as the two witnesses because they never died, then what do we say about the believers who are Raptured who do not die either?????

Here is another thought. If Elijah entered heaven physically as the Bible teaches, then he must have had a bodily change from corruptible to incorruptible, for flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. This means he had a transformation to his body as did Enoch who entered without dying Heb. God would have to reverse their bodies to corruptible bodies so that they will be able to die. CAN HE DO THAT??? He is God, of course He can.......but then what would have been the point of Rapturing them in the 1st place.

I would suggest they may be someone completely new that act in a similar manner, just as John the Baptizer did with Elijah. Two completely new witnesses, as God often does things this way. We don't see him recycle prophets from the Old Testament anywhere else.

God will use these two witnesses specifically to Israel as he will have the sealed 144,000 Jews from the tribes of Israel to proclaim the Gospel to the world. They will take over the job of proclaiming the Gospel from the Church which will be in heaven during this time. An innumerable number of souls will be won to the Lord Jesus during the tribulation period.

What thinkest thou on this????

 

[Major]

Major,
Thanks for clearing up things! The faithful dead will rise to meet us in the air. What a day of Glory for God.

My experience in talking about the Rapture with those who do not believe in it, is that their claim is the Rapture is a NEW teaching only brought forth by Dr. Darby and Schofield and a woman name Mary McDonald in the middle 1800's. Their contention is because it is new it can not be valid. They conveniently forget to mention all those early church fathers who believed in the Rapture and actually Paul who wrote about it in the Bible itself 2000 years ago.

 

[Abdicate]

I agree with you. I do not believe it will be Elijah and Enoch BUT someone who will be LIKE them and come in the power they had in that they can stop the rain and contol the elements ....IMO!

Revelation 11:3........
“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred [and] threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.”

Here is another thought. Have you thought that IF Elijah and Enoch were brought back as the two witnesses because they never died, then what do we say about the believers who are Raptured who do not die either?????

Here is another thought. If Elijah entered heaven physically as the Bible teaches, then he must have had a bodily change from corruptible to incorruptible, for flesh and blood cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. This means he had a transformation to his body as did Enoch who entered without dying Heb. God would have to reverse their bodies to corruptible bodies so that they will be able to die. CAN HE DO THAT??? He is God, of course He can.......but then what would have been the point of Rapturing them in the 1st place.

I would suggest they may be someone completely new that act in a similar manner, just as John the Baptizer did with Elijah. Two completely new witnesses, as God often does things this way. We don't see him recycle prophets from the Old Testament anywhere else.

God will use these two witnesses specifically to Israel as he will have the sealed 144,000 Jews from the tribes of Israel to proclaim the Gospel to the world. They will take over the job of proclaiming the Gospel from the Church which will be in heaven during this time. An innumerable number of souls will be won to the Lord Jesus during the tribulation period.

What thinkest thou on this????

Yep... that's what I said.

 

[Penion]

My experience in talking about the Rapture with those who do not believe in it, is that their claim is the Rapture is a NEW teaching only brought forth by Dr. Darby and Schofield and a woman name Mary McDonald in the middle 1800's. Their contention is because it is new it can not be valid. They conveniently forget to mention all those early church fathers who believed in the Rapture and actually Paul who wrote about it in the Bible itself 2000 years ago.

This message is addressed to Major and Abdicate. I have read Walvoord who says that the Rapture will lead to the Bema seat judgment in the air going up and, then a turn around, to go down to the Earth. On the Earth, Jesus will judge the nations that survive the Tribulation (sheep and the goats). What do you guys think? Blessings to you both.

 

[Abdicate]

This message is addressed to Major and Abdicate. I have read Walvoord who says that the Rapture will lead to the Bema seat judgment in the air going up and, then a turn around, to go down to the Earth. On the Earth, Jesus will judge the nations that survive the Tribulation (sheep and the goats). What do you guys think? Blessings to you both.

So when's the marriage supper of the Lamb? Between the clouds? A wedding feast last 7 days... a week. With the earth in judgment below, we'll be having a wedding feast in heaven for 7 years. One must include all verses and see how they ALL fit together. A rapture at the end doesn't answer the question of being under wrath... people have such a wrong idea about God and can't get past their judgement of Him so they see Him negatively and treat Him negatively. Stick to the word of God, not men, even me. Read for yourself, pray and ask for guidance of the Holy Spirit and He'll answer you.

 

[Major]

This message is addressed to Major and Abdicate. I have read Walvoord who says that the Rapture will lead to the Bema seat judgment in the air going up and, then a turn around, to go down to the Earth. On the Earth, Jesus will judge the nations that survive the Tribulation (sheep and the goats). What do you guys think? Blessings to you both.

You could not find a better person to read than Dr. Walvoord!!! He may be the best in the business of prophecy.
(Abdicate is extremely good as well).

Romans 14:10-12 .........
“For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat…so then, each of us will give an account of himself to God.”
Second Corinthians 5:10 .........
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive what is due him for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

The judgment seat of Christ, therefore, involves believers giving an account of their lives to Christ. The judgment seat of Christ does not determine salvation; that was determined by Christ’s sacrifice on our behalf and our faith in Him.

It is not really a "judgment" in the classic sense. At the judgment seat of Christ, believers are rewarded based on how faithfully they served Christ. Some of the things we might be judged on are how well we obeyed the Great Commission, how victorious we were over sin, and how well we controlled our tongues. It will be a time of Christ giving out rewards for service done AFTER we were saved.

Personally I am with Abdicate in that it will be a Seven Year event and not just on the way up. At the end of the 7 year Tribulation, the Church will then come with Jesus as witnesses at Armageddon.

 

[Major]

So when's the marriage supper of the Lamb? Between the clouds? A wedding feast last 7 days... a week. With the earth in judgment below, we'll be having a wedding feast in heaven for 7 years. One must include all verses and see how they ALL fit together. A rapture at the end doesn't answer the question of being under wrath... people have such a wrong idea about God and can't get past their judgement of Him so they see Him negatively and treat Him negatively. Stick to the word of God, not men, even me. Read for yourself, pray and ask for guidance of the Holy Spirit and He'll answer you.

Amen!