The REAL Miracles, and Greater Things

[Major]

There would be seem to be a difference one is a statment, The other a querry ?? questioning..

All beleivers doubt. Doubt is not the oposite of faith. Unbeleif "no faith" is .

As born again believer we are always atributed with little faith with the prospect he must increase. His word literaly has the power of life or death . No faith no power



Jesus did not invide . . it was the work of the father to give John comfort that sent them to witness the lesson the gospel preached the temporal healing proving it was the lord working in mankind to both wil and empower .

John asked them while in prison awaitng punishemt having rebuked the king for fornficateing with his brother Philip's wife. Doubting whether Jesus was prophet messiah .he was led to sent the men saying, Art thou he that should come? or look we for another?

All of those metphors in the parable the blind see (in repsect the spiritual blind faithless unbeleivers. or deaf hear spiritually deaf ,, dead are raised are pictures of our salvation raising the believer to new born again life

When John heard having ears to hear of the work the father was working in the Son of man jesus he mixing that sern with the unseen gospel the deaf hear the dead are raised . The true fast

Garee.......
An excellent commentary on the Matthew 11 passage that you are questioning is found in THE CRISWELL STUDY BIBLE. Dr. Criswell explains the possible reason for John’s question concerning Jesus’ Messiahship: J

John’s question was a question asking clarification, not a question of doubt.

The Old Testament presented the Messiah in a twofold character: (1) as a suffering servant; (2) as a reigning monarch. The prophets (as John was called) could not see the great interval of time between the two comings of our Lord…. John had proclaimed a final judgment and salvation (of the Jews) associated with the glorious kingdom established by the Messiah (millennium and eternal kingdom)…. John did not perceive the difference between the Messianic salvation of the new age (during Jesus’ public ministry) which had come and the age yet to come (Christ’s earthly rule). John had expected the structure (government of the Jews) to be disrupted by the coming of the Messiah and was possibly perplexed because it had not happened (p. 1124).

Also in THE CRISWELL STUDY BIBLE we find the following explanation for the Luke 7 passage: “He that should come” is a reference to the anticipated Messiah. Some commentators, such as Luther, Calvin, and Beza, suggest that John asks the question because his disciples needed strengthening, others indicate that John’s faith is being tested because Jesus does not correspond to his (John’s) expectation. More likely, John is asking if more than one figure (person) was to be anticipated to fulfill the total messianic expectation, one to be lowly and to suffer and the other to rule and to reign (p. 1200).

It should be noted that John the Baptist had declared Jesus to be the Son of God (John 1:34), the Lamb of God (v. 29), he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost (v. 33), and sent of God (John 3:34), thus John did point men to Jesus as the messiah (see Matthew 3:13; John 1:29, 35- 10:41; Acts 18:25; 19:4). Therefore, it is not certainly known why John sent his disciples to Jesus. It should be noted further that Christ’s own disciples were confused over the subject of the kingdom (see Acts 1:6).

Source:
https://www.biblesprout.com/articles/bible/john-baptist/did-john-doubt-jesus/

 

[Musicmaster]

I wasn't debating with you just reading the chapter as a whole.
Whether Jesus was referring to the greater number of people who could enter the kingdom or the number of miraculous healings, is open to interpretation. The difficulty I guess some people don't know what he was referring to when he said 'works' so you probably want to go back and re-read what he meant by 'works'.

When I read the Bible I don't just read ONE verse. I read the entire chapter so I can understand what the story is.

Lanolin,

It never entered my mind to debate. I was simply sharing thoughts. I don't think we differ in our take on the context of that chapter.

You did, however, bring up a good point about defining works. Different groupings have different understandings about how to define works. The Hebrew Roots folks think that obeying the letter of the law is the good works God had in mind, but that doesn't work because of the other problems that entails that they do this day have never provided a satisfactory answer to my question.

So, given that God's law is written in our hearts, and given what Jesus said about the law, in that all the law and prophets hang upon loving God with one's all, and loving others as self, all that we may do that are good works pleasing to the Lord should be a natural outflow from those two things written in our hearts.

Does that seem reasonable? We tend to fret over trying to define things, like "works", but when we consider what the Lord inspired to be written by Paul in 1 John 2:27, the Spirit of the Lord within us can and does guide us to the works that are pleasing to Him. It may be evangelism, serving, giving to meet genuine needs before giving to meet the needs of a dead building, etc.

To my understanding, good works can encompass many different things in life with which we may encounter. Loving the Lord and others seems to be the conduit through which we may do what is pleasing to the Lord, and to store up treasure in Heaven.

Do you agree?

MM

 

[YeshuaFan]

Lanolin,

It never entered my mind to debate. I was simply sharing thoughts. I don't think we differ in our take on the context of that chapter.

You did, however, bring up a good point about defining works. Different groupings have different understandings about how to define works. The Hebrew Roots folks think that obeying the letter of the law is the good works God had in mind, but that doesn't work because of the other problems that entails that they do this day have never provided a satisfactory answer to my question.

So, given that God's law is written in our hearts, and given what Jesus said about the law, in that all the law and prophets hang upon loving God with one's all, and loving others as self, all that we may do that are good works pleasing to the Lord should be a natural outflow from those two things written in our hearts.

Does that seem reasonable? We tend to fret over trying to define things, like "works", but when we consider what the Lord inspired to be written by Paul in 1 John 2:27, the Spirit of the Lord within us can and does guide us to the works that are pleasing to Him. It may be evangelism, serving, giving to meet genuine needs before giving to meet the needs of a dead building, etc.

To my understanding, good works can encompass many different things in life with which we may encounter. Loving the Lord and others seems to be the conduit through which we may do what is pleasing to the Lord, and to store up treasure in Heaven.

Do you agree?

MM

Hebrew Roots are a Cult, who teach salvation by keeping the Mosaic Law!

 

[Musicmaster]

Hebrew Roots are a Cult, who teach salvation by keeping the Mosaic Law!

YF, if I may, I'd like to offer a correction to this. The HR people I know and converse with do not believe their keeping of the law has anything to do with their salvation. To those I know personally, it's about pleasing the Lord and storing up treasure in Heaven. They had told me repeatedly that they are saved ONLY by the blood of Christ Jesus.

The group who I would say believe in the law as the way to salvation, that would likely be Judaisers. There may be some HR people who see the law as the means to earning salvation, but I have yet to meet one who believes that. There might even be a website of some who lay claim to being Hebrew Roots who believe in the law as the means to salvation. After all, the web is filled with all kinds of kookie nonsense out there.

Just wanted to throw that into the mix in order to be fair to those who I have encountered over the years.

MM

 

[YeshuaFan]

YF, if I may, I'd like to offer a correction to this. The HR people I know and converse with do not believe their keeping of the law has anything to do with their salvation. To those I know personally, it's about pleasing the Lord and storing up treasure in Heaven. They had told me repeatedly that they are saved ONLY by the blood of Christ Jesus.

The group who I would say believe in the law as the way to salvation, that would likely be Judaisers. There may be some HR people who see the law as the means to earning salvation, but I have yet to meet one who believes that. There might even be a website of some who lay claim to being Hebrew Roots who believe in the law as the means to salvation. After all, the web is filled with all kinds of kookie nonsense out there.

Just wanted to throw that into the mix in order to be fair to those who I have encountered over the years.

MM

Here is some excellent information on them!

Dangers of the Hebrew Roots Movement

This article describes the nature of the Hebrew Roots Movement, examines some of its major beliefs, and challenges those who have been influenced by its teachings.

answersingenesis.org

 

[Musicmaster]

Here is some excellent information on them!

Dangers of the Hebrew Roots Movement

This article describes the nature of the Hebrew Roots Movement, examines some of its major beliefs, and challenges those who have been influenced by its teachings.

answersingenesis.org

Like I said, I'm not surprised that there may be various of that movement who believe that the letter of the law saves. In reality, the law would save any one of us if only we could live it perfectly, but we can't; with which I'm sure we all agree. The law is righteous, but we are not in and of ourselves. Thus our need for the gracious, substitutionary sacrifice of Christ Jesus in our place, which is more wonderful than what mere words could express.

Something else to keep in mind is that the HR movement has no known centralized authority, like the SBC or any of the other major denominations. They are a very loose knit grouping with varying beliefs about the law and how it relates to mankind in today's world.

I'm also sure that AiG is very sincere in their desire to warn people, but when one assumes he's 100% right, only to later find out he's wrong, and yet still never admits his error, then there's a problem. The leadership within AiG are super stars, and therefore untouchable by those of us who are under the table eating only the crumbs. Ken Ham doesn't know me from a hole in the ground, and I'm not a scholar in the ranks of those he respects and sees as one who can contribute to the narratives of his ministry, so I'm just one among thousands of prospects to harvest support for his ministry and visit his museum. (My wife is chomping at the bit to visit that thing, with me dragging along with no real desire to spend our money there...) Dinosaurs just don't impress me. We have more than enough dinosaur politicians running things under the same old promises that have been tried so many times in the past, only to fail because of the wicked hearts of those who lead and those who are led.

YAWN! No, I'm content to tell people about Jesus, those who will listen. It's not easy finding those whom the Lord has prepared by opening their hearts to His message.

MM

 

[YeshuaFan]

Like I said, I'm not surprised that there may be various of that movement who believe that the letter of the law saves. In reality, the law would save any one of us if only we could live it perfectly, but we can't; with which I'm sure we all agree. The law is righteous, but we are not in and of ourselves. Thus our need for the gracious, substitutionary sacrifice of Christ Jesus in our place, which is more wonderful than what mere words could express.

Something else to keep in mind is that the HR movement has no known centralized authority, like the SBC or any of the other major denominations. They are a very loose knit grouping with varying beliefs about the law and how it relates to mankind in today's world.

I'm also sure that AiG is very sincere in their desire to warn people, but when one assumes he's 100% right, only to later find out he's wrong, and yet still never admits his error, then there's a problem. The leadership within AiG are super stars, and therefore untouchable by those of us who are under the table eating only the crumbs. Ken Ham doesn't know me from a hole in the ground, and I'm not a scholar in the ranks of those he respects and sees as one who can contribute to the narratives of his ministry, so I'm just one among thousands of prospects to harvest support for his ministry and visit his museum. (My wife is chomping at the bit to visit that thing, with me dragging along with no real desire to spend our money there...) Dinosaurs just don't impress me. We have more than enough dinosaur politicians running things under the same old promises that have been tried so many times in the past, only to fail because of the wicked hearts of those who lead and those who are led.

YAWN! No, I'm content to tell people about Jesus, those who will listen. It's not easy finding those whom the Lord has prepared by opening their hearts to His message.

MM

You might be dealing with those who are not full blown into it, such as when talking to catholics or Sda or do not really know what their "official" Church teachings are!

 

[Musicmaster]

You might be dealing with those who are not full blown into it, such as when talking to catholics or Sda or do not really know what their "official" Church teachings are!

That's the point, though. I can't find any absolute center of authority for what those people are supposed to believe who say they are Hebrew Roots. There are some videos out there on Youtube claiming to be the "official" teaching foundation.

You may be right about the ones I have met. However, here is a video of members saying what they think it's all about. Some of it's a reaction to our declining culture, which is dangerous, because when people think something like this is a viable alternative to the evils of our culture, they are indeed mistaken. Watch this video with a critical eye to it, and keep the words of Jesus alive in your mind and heart. Guard your heart. They make appeals to Holy Spirit and such, but don't believe their feelings and words.

 

[Musicmaster]

Let's all talk about this if you watch it. There are a number of things to comment upon. They make it sound sooooo Christian, but better than Christian...

 

[Garee]

I would suggest we look to the "manner of spirit" in respect to the unseen. The reason Jesus rebuked the apostles in Luke 9 . Again the key "manner of spirit"

Luke 9: 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

The person Mike in the video claims to be moved from hierarchy of men that lord it over the faith the non venerable never coming to the end of faith. One Jehovah witness a group of men that lord it over the faith or understanding of God to another Catholic and then Hebrew roots never satisfied as if we did need a man to teach us and in the end usurp the authority of the Holy Spirit that dwells every born again believer the work of God working in them to both will and empower them to perform the good pleasure yoked with him .

In most case the Hebrew movement wants nothing to with the results of the first century reformation. From my experience as far as they are concerned they have knowledge of the first century reformation what kind of tribulation it brought but ignore the reason as to why the first century reformation came in the first place .

We are not to glory in the flesh we know no man after the flesh. . all flesh matters

 

[YeshuaFan]

Let's all talk about this if you watch it. There are a number of things to comment upon. They make it sound sooooo Christian, but better than Christian...

No longer under the Mosaic Covenant, and we could be having a Greek roots movement and be just as biblical now!

 

[Major]

I would suggest we look to the "manner of spirit" in respect to the unseen. The reason Jesus rebuked the apostles in Luke 9 . Again the key "manner of spirit"

Luke 9: 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.

The person Mike in the video claims to be moved from hierarchy of men that lord it over the faith the non venerable never coming to the end of faith. One Jehovah witness a group of men that lord it over the faith or understanding of God to another Catholic and then Hebrew roots never satisfied as if we did need a man to teach us and in the end usurp the authority of the Holy Spirit that dwells every born again believer the work of God working in them to both will and empower them to perform the good pleasure yoked with him .

In most case the Hebrew movement wants nothing to with the results of the first century reformation. From my experience as far as they are concerned they have knowledge of the first century reformation what kind of tribulation it brought but ignore the reason as to why the first century reformation came in the first place .

We are not to glory in the flesh we know no man after the flesh. . all flesh matters

You said...........
"In most case the Hebrew movement wants nothing to with the results of the first century reformation."

I know about the 1st church. I know about Christ establishing the Church of Christians, however I have never heard the phrase "First Century Reformation" used until YOU said.

The church had to be FORMED before there could have been a RE-formation.

Will you please explain to all of us WHAT you mean by it.

 

[YeshuaFan]

You said...........
"In most case the Hebrew movement wants nothing to with the results of the first century reformation."

I know about the 1st church. I know about Christ establishing the Church of Christians, however I have never heard the phrase "First Century Reformation" used until YOU said.

The church had to be FORMED before there could have been a RE-formation.

Will you please explain to all of us WHAT you mean by it.

Hebrew Roots deny Jesus is God, and so must still want Judaism of time of Jesus!

 

[Lanolin]

I'm not sure what we are talking about anymore!! Good works I just understand as whatever God calls us to do. He's not going to want us to do anything evil.

I'm just gonna agree with everyone. You are ALL right.

Regarding Hebrew roots, well some grew and some got cut off, and then some got grafted in, but I would say that since Jesus was actually Hebrew we all have Hebrew roots. I know people generally think Jesus was Jewish but before anyone was Jewish the Israelites were all Hebrew. Judaism is just one branch of the Hebrew family tree (one of the twelve tribes actually). Recall the kingdom was split in two, into House of Judah AND House of Israel.

I'm no expert on geneology, but Jesus parents Mary was from one tribe and Joseph was from another, but his claim to the throne (and as Messiah) was from the lineage through the House of David. Which one was it?

 

[Musicmaster]

I'm not sure what we are talking about anymore!! Good works I just understand as whatever God calls us to do. He's not going to want us to do anything evil.

I'm just gonna agree with everyone. You are ALL right.

Regarding Hebrew roots, well some grew and some got cut off, and then some got grafted in, but I would say that since Jesus was actually Hebrew we all have Hebrew roots. I know people generally think Jesus was Jewish but before anyone was Jewish the Israelites were all Hebrew. Judaism is just one branch of the Hebrew family tree (one of the twelve tribes actually). Recall the kingdom was split in two, into House of Judah AND House of Israel.

I'm no expert on geneology, but Jesus parents Mary was from one tribe and Joseph was from another, but his claim to the throne (and as Messiah) was from the lineage through the House of David. Which one was it?

Lanolin, the HR movement people are diverse in their beliefs. They range from the belief that obedience to the law can save one, all the way to obedience to the law is the "works" the Lord has called us to do as the way we please Him.

I agree with YF in that attempting to please the Lord through obedience to the letter of the law (which nobody can accomplish on this earth) can lead to deep implications for salvation through obedience to the law. In other words, if we're saved, then the proof of that salvation is found mainly in our attempts at obedience to the letter of the law, based upon what James said on the matter.

What I tasked them to show me is where James ever defined "good works" as attempts at obedience to the letter of the law. None of them have been forthcoming with a satisfactory answer in light of what James said in Acts 15 to the Gentile believers out in the Roman provinces.

MM

 

[YeshuaFan]

I'm not sure what we are talking about anymore!! Good works I just understand as whatever God calls us to do. He's not going to want us to do anything evil.

I'm just gonna agree with everyone. You are ALL right.

Regarding Hebrew roots, well some grew and some got cut off, and then some got grafted in, but I would say that since Jesus was actually Hebrew we all have Hebrew roots. I know people generally think Jesus was Jewish but before anyone was Jewish the Israelites were all Hebrew. Judaism is just one branch of the Hebrew family tree (one of the twelve tribes actually). Recall the kingdom was split in two, into House of Judah AND House of Israel.

I'm no expert on geneology, but Jesus parents Mary was from one tribe and Joseph was from another, but his claim to the throne (and as Messiah) was from the lineage through the House of David. Which one was it?

Hebrew Roots wants to get us back under the Mosaic law, the feasts and festivals of OT Israel, but thoise were just shadows of the Messiah and the NC!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Lanolin, the HR movement people are diverse in their beliefs. They range from the belief that obedience to the law can save one, all the way to obedience to the law is the "works" the Lord has called us to do as the way we please Him.

I agree with YF in that attempting to please the Lord through obedience to the letter of the law (which nobody can accomplish on this earth) can lead to deep implications for salvation through obedience to the law. In other words, if we're saved, then the proof of that salvation is found mainly in our attempts at obedience to the letter of the law, based upon what James said on the matter.

What I tasked them to show me is where James ever defined "good works" as attempts at obedience to the letter of the law. None of them have been forthcoming with a satisfactory answer in light of what James said in Acts 15 to the Gentile believers out in the Roman provinces.

MM

We do good works as the by product and the fruit of being now saved, but they hold to the law as means and the basis to get saved!

 

[Garee]

You said...........
"In most case the Hebrew movement wants nothing to with the results of the first century reformation."

I know about the 1st church. I know about Christ establishing the Church of Christians, however I have never heard the phrase "First Century Reformation" used until YOU said.

The church had to be FORMED before there could have been a RE-formation.

Will you please explain to all of us WHAT you mean by it.

Thanks I can try. I would offer in a hope of defining waht I think of the 1st century reformation.

The first member as one of the lively stones that make up the spiritual unseen house of God the church, the bride of Christ was Abel. Abel the second born is the first prophet, apostle who was martyred for the born again Spirit of Christ that lived in him .His blood as the blood of all believers/saints cries out in a hope to be clothed with the eternal incoruptible. Genesis establishes the doctrine of Christ seeking after his church the bride in the parable below. .

Gen3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The church had all but a few like born again belivers like Samuel the last of his kind untill the refomation. . The atheitic Jews (no God of the bible no faith) they clearly denied the need to serve a King not seen understanding or walking by faith that comes as it is written.

1 samauel 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

As atheist they gathered themselves and not called by God in whom they had no faith in as coming from Him . They demanded the judge /prophet/apostle Samuel the last prophet under the government of faith that Samauel give them a king to rule or lord it over the faith of the non venerable. Having become jealous of the surrounding pagan nations (the abomination of desolation) making the place of faith God’s. . hidden glory desolate by I heard it through the grape vine oral traditions of a hierarchy of men that Lord it over the non-venerable show watchers .

God revealed to Samuel its not you they are rejescting as King of kings and Lord of lords But eternal God not seen making to no effect the power of faith that does work in those born again from above .He gave them over to do what they should not of. they made the word of God without effect.

The time of reformation came the veil representing the fore flesh the ceremonial circumcision of the Son of man the first born. it was rent from the top to the bottom there was no literal king sitting in the holy of holies .

The father of likes could no longer deceive mankind to seek after the Hebrew movement a hierarchy of men sitting in the holy place. Hid from veiw All the nations of the world witnessed the fall that is recorded in Revelation 20:5. it was the last time he would deceive all the nations they must get under the Hebrew movement moving the outward flesh of a Jew. If any man has not the unseen Sprit of Christ they simply are under a different government other than the government of peace, the father with the Son working together in perfect harmony with one another . . One God.

The time or reformation . . . a time like never before or ever again. The deciever will be loosed for a short while when the two prophets are made to no effect. And again will deceive all the nations of what some call Hebrew movement.

Watch for an increase .The remnant from the first reformation remains. Jesus will come like a theft in the night But like Noah we can watch by faith not by the faithless looking to what the eyes see and not what the Spirit of Christ reveals. Like many things two kinds watchers remembering God creates new creatures after kinds .

Song of Solomon 3:3The watchmen that go about the city found me: to whom I said, Saw ye him whom my soul loveth?

Song of Solomon 5:7The watchmen that went about the city found me, they smote me, they wounded me; the keepers of the walls took away my veil from me.

Signifying. . . as the language of a figure or parable is a shadow of the unseen work of faith or labor of love. I would think an explosion of faith the power of God at Pentecost (3000 souls ) binding all the nation of the whole world as one chaste virgin bride .A time like never before or ever again .A great tribulation with those who suffer to go out into the world as Ambassadors for Christ.

A terrible tribulation for those who look to Hebrew flesh as out ward Jews, again a blessing to an inward Jew born of the Spirit of Christ.

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Believers have a new testament carnal ordinance one more befitting to represent all the nations of the world (1 Corinthian 11) we should guard it represents the gospel. . . a picture to the unbelieving world .

 

[Musicmaster]

We do good works as the by product and the fruit of being now saved, but they hold to the law as means and the basis to get saved!

True. They do define "works" differently than what Paul of Tarsus defined it as.

MM

 

[Major]

Thanks I can try. I would offer in a hope of defining waht I think of the 1st century reformation.

The first member as one of the lively stones that make up the spiritual unseen house of God the church, the bride of Christ was Abel. Abel the second born is the first prophet, apostle who was martyred for the born again Spirit of Christ that lived in him .His blood as the blood of all believers/saints cries out in a hope to be clothed with the eternal incoruptible. Genesis establishes the doctrine of Christ seeking after his church the bride in the parable below. .

Gen3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The church had all but a few like born again belivers like Samuel the last of his kind untill the refomation. . The atheitic Jews (no God of the bible no faith) they clearly denied the need to serve a King not seen understanding or walking by faith that comes as it is written.

1 samauel 8:4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered themselves together, and came to Samuel unto Ramah, And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations. But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord. And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

As atheist they gathered themselves and not called by God in whom they had no faith in as coming from Him . They demanded the judge /prophet/apostle Samuel the last prophet under the government of faith that Samauel give them a king to rule or lord it over the faith of the non venerable. Having become jealous of the surrounding pagan nations (the abomination of desolation) making the place of faith God’s. . hidden glory desolate by I heard it through the grape vine oral traditions of a hierarchy of men that Lord it over the non-venerable show watchers .

God revealed to Samuel its not you they are rejescting as King of kings and Lord of lords But eternal God not seen making to no effect the power of faith that does work in those born again from above .He gave them over to do what they should not of. they made the word of God without effect.

The time of reformation came the veil representing the fore flesh the ceremonial circumcision of the Son of man the first born. it was rent from the top to the bottom there was no literal king sitting in the holy of holies .

The father of likes could no longer deceive mankind to seek after the Hebrew movement a hierarchy of men sitting in the holy place. Hid from veiw All the nations of the world witnessed the fall that is recorded in Revelation 20:5. it was the last time he would deceive all the nations they must get under the Hebrew movement moving the outward flesh of a Jew. If any man has not the unseen Sprit of Christ they simply are under a different government other than the government of peace, the father with the Son working together in perfect harmony with one another . . One God.

The time or reformation . . . a time like never before or ever again. The deciever will be loosed for a short while when the two prophets are made to no effect. And again will deceive all the nations of what some call Hebrew movement.

Watch for an increase .The remnant from the first reformation remains. Jesus will come like a theft in the night But like Noah we can watch by faith not by the faithless looking to what the eyes see and not what the Spirit of Christ reveals. Like many things two kinds watchers remembering God creates new creatures after kinds .

Song of Solomon 3:3The watchmen that go about the city found me: to whom I said, Saw ye him whom my soul loveth?

Song of Solomon 5:7The watchmen that went about the city found me, they smote me, they wounded me; the keepers of the walls took away my veil from me.

Signifying. . . as the language of a figure or parable is a shadow of the unseen work of faith or labor of love. I would think an explosion of faith the power of God at Pentecost (3000 souls ) binding all the nation of the whole world as one chaste virgin bride .A time like never before or ever again .A great tribulation with those who suffer to go out into the world as Ambassadors for Christ.

A terrible tribulation for those who look to Hebrew flesh as out ward Jews, again a blessing to an inward Jew born of the Spirit of Christ.

Hebrews 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing: Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience; Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

Believers have a new testament carnal ordinance one more befitting to represent all the nations of the world (1 Corinthian 11) we should guard it represents the gospel. . . a picture to the unbelieving world .

I can not agree with your attempt to explain something that can not be explained as The 1st church was NOT "REFORMED" bur ESTABLISHED by Christ!

I actually have no idea what else you said as it makes NO sense to me at all!