The Reason the Church is Floundering....

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gideon

I think if you asked 100 believers for the reason the church as a whole is floundering, worldly, shallow and lukewarm, there would be a few who would fight and declare God's church is exactly what God wants and He is pleased with us.

But of those that remain, there would be a myriad of answers but none with a proposed correction to get us back on track. We read about revival, but are like the lame man at the pool of Bethesda, waiting for the angel to stir the water.

I have my own opinion, which I hope to share, but what say you? Is the church just fine, just drowned out by all the tares? Wait. That should be a red flag, right? Is the church as a whole walking in defeat, bickering over doctrine, overtaken with things of the world? Is holiness not only seen as impossible but also as a lifestyle that would constrict our "self" expression?

What is your thought on this matter? What is the root of the problem? And more importantly, what can we do to change it?

Thanks in advance,

Gideon
 
Each local church is an organization of individuals. Too often the church is more focused on their corporate mission rather than encouraging and supporting the individual ministries of members.

As members of our local church, we need to commit to helping our fellow congregants be ready for the challenges of doing God's will in today's world. Some of this is in corporate and personal prayer. Some of this is through direct teaching. Much of this is through demonstrating within our own lives.

Yes, it is great to have a church-wide ministry. I know churches that operate food banks, Others that have a ministry with the elderly. Some concentrate on out-reach. Some churches are decidedly family oriented, having activities that bring families together in both spirit oriented recreation and service. Some try to hit many bases. These are great.

But it is the faith and commitment of individuals that that the Spirit uses, rather than the mission statement of the church. We need to encourage that.
 
I think church can tend to miss out on the more introverted individuals and their contributions.

Introverts like to do ministry but not always in big massive groups. And often it's a daily thing, not a once a week or once a month thing that really counts.

Maybe give an example of a ministry you think is floundering, and we might be able to come up with some solutions or alternatives to the ways it's usually been done.

I can think of when for example, cities reach a certain critical mass before everyone gets too overcrowded and people start complaining about traffic problems and housing shortages. But before that, people complained 'we don't have enough resources, or we don't have enough money to pay for the things we want, we need more people'. So the govt was like ok lets let in all the immigrants so they can work all the jobs for cheaper that we don't want to do, and we will have more population, and more money coming in, but they didn't think the fact that immigrants also have needs for food, housing and what not AS WELL.
 
Lanolin said:
I think church can tend to miss out on the more introverted individuals and their contributions.

Introverts like to do ministry but not always in big massive groups. And often it's a daily thing, not a once a week or once a month thing that really counts.
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Yes, when I met my wife, she was a very quiet person feeling insecure about many things. I saw her and quickly felt interested. I would sit by her in Sunday School and accompany her up to service.

After we started going out, the Sunday school teacher called on her to give her opinion on something. She felt very embarrassed and never went back to that class. It was hard to keep in touch for awhile, but a mutual acquaintance gave me her number.

Churches need to be sensitive for people who have trouble feeling like they are a part of the congregation. Not to push, but let them ease in as they feel comfortable. They can be very effective behind-the-scenes workers.
 
I have the opposite problem; I am noisy and outgoing by nature. Many find my candid sense of reality to be abrasive, and my brand of truth to be aloof. However its quite the contrary; I care so deeply and with such passion. I think before I speak, and with such filter I can only imagine how I would sound when Im already so clearly misunderstood. Therefore I find most churches difficult to be in.
 
When you say “the church”, are you referring to the body of believers as a whole? Or do you mean brick and mortar church buildings and the members of their congregations?

I believe the church consisting of the body of true believers is right where God wants us and is thriving! Sometimes we become myopic and examine only the state of the church in the western world but it is thriving worldwide with a multitude of new believers all around the world who are burning with the Holy Spirit, praise God!

As for the western world (namely North America, UK, and parts of Europe), social pressure to accept certain behaviors as good has had a profound impact on a number of brick and mortar churches where they now teach watered down doctrine to lukewarm “believers.” The influence of these churches has dwindled and attendance has decreased dramatically. I think it’s because they have strayed from the truth of God in an effort to placate societal trends. Ironically, they have done so to bolster attendance but it has had an opposite effect.

I think if more brick and mortar churches unashamedly preached the word of God using an expository method, we would be on the right path toward a revival.
 
Lanolin said:
? It just needs more water?
I was thinking of the flounder, that are flat fish and feed on the bottom.
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14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.
[Jhn 4:14 KJV]
 
Yes crossnote it is; I am therefore conscious of my voice volume. With arthritis I make noise as I step, or as I move around which is often. It hurts to stay in one position. The harder I try to be quiet the more noise I make. Sitting here I am shuffling around making different sounds. In a quiet church they are magnified.
 
gideon said:
I think if you asked 100 believers for the reason the church as a whole is floundering, worldly, shallow and lukewarm, there would be a few who would fight and declare God's church is exactly what God wants and He is pleased with us.

But of those that remain, there would be a myriad of answers but none with a proposed correction to get us back on track. We read about revival, but are like the lame man at the pool of Bethesda, waiting for the angel to stir the water.

I have my own opinion, which I hope to share, but what say you? Is the church just fine, just drowned out by all the tares? Wait. That should be a red flag, right? Is the church as a whole walking in defeat, bickering over doctrine, overtaken with things of the world? Is holiness not only seen as impossible but also as a lifestyle that would constrict our "self" expression?

What is your thought on this matter? What is the root of the problem? And more importantly, what can we do to change it?

Thanks in advance,

Gideon
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Allow me to say to you what God has said to us.

2 Timothy 4:1-4 .........
"I charge thee therefore before God, and the LORD Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables."

Amos 8:11.........
"The days are coming," declares the Sovereign LORD, "when I will send a famine through the land- not a famine of food or a thirst for water, but a famine of hearing the words of the LORD."

In a book in 1982, Rev. Robert Schuler wrote that the biggest problem in men's lives is their lack of self esteem. Does that sound like it may be the problem??????


Mans problem is sin! Preachers who preach selfism, and popular mechanics and the power of positive thinking from the pulpit has turned the church in America into a bunch of christianettes needing to be patted on the back and told that they are really good people and the sun will come up tomorrow.

Instead of telling their congregations that that they are sinners and need to come to Christ and be saved, instead they tell them that God owes them money and wealth and a new car.

What is going on in America today is a tragedy. When it happened 2000 years ago......God took a whip to those men and cleaned His house.

Seems to me that is what is needed today!
 
Using ‘church’ to mean the organizations called churches rather than the spiritual body of believers, which is _THE_ Church: A message centered on the world’s sin and corruption is not where the church should concentrate. Any society built by man has always been corrupt. It shall continue to be corrupt until the Master who has already defeated it returns to claim the fruits of victory (us).

But consider, it is not the visible corruption that is at the heart. If society were to cease in all adulterous activity, thieving and back-stabbing along with every other activity that we call sin, all that we would decry from the pulpit, society would still have no virtue. In fact, the thought that virtue in the absence of overt sin is itself contrary to scripture since it declares that there is a path other than the blood that would be pleasing to God.

So, when considering the message, one would expect and respect from the church we must consider who we are talking to. By and large, if it is a sermon from the pulpit, they are not talking to the average member of society. They are talking to persons who have at least in theory chosen to follow Christ. If there are a lot of Sunday Christians who are Weekday Sinners the preacher needs to address that, but if the persons in the congregation are growing in the Lord, they need to be aided and then exhorted to spread that faith not threatened with fire and brimstone.

When dealing with our society as a whole, it is very tempting to cry “Repent you sinners!” knowing that the first steps toward salvation is in recognizing their state. It is always tempting to take on a role of prosecutor, or even judge, But I find few if any instances where either Christ or Paul or other early Christian dealt with unbelievers thus.

The Bible says:

2 Corinthians 3:9-11 (NASB)

9 For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory.
10 For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it.
11 For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory.


These verses do not even say that a ministry of preaching condemnation has any glory. In fact verse 10 indicates the opposite. But IF there was any glory there, it is much less than teaching the glory of living for God.

Conviction of sin is the ministry of the Holy Spirit.

We are to receive His power to be His witnesses (Acts 1:8). But what are we to be witnesses of? I submit it is not “I testify that you are a sinner” or even "I testify we are all sinners". It is more to say “Because the Lord dealt with _MY_ sin, He accompanies me through life and has helped me thus. Accept His atonement for your failings and see what He does for you!"
 
Siloam said:
We are to receive His power to be His witnesses (Acts 1:8). But what are we to be witnesses of? I submit it is not “I testify that you are a sinner” or even "I testify we are all sinners". It is more to say “Because the Lord dealt with _MY_ sin, He accompanies me through life and has helped me thus. Accept His atonement for your failings and see what He does for you!"
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It sounds like you punted at the word 'failings' instead of 'sins'.
 
expository method? Can you explain....

I think if churches just read the Bible from cover to cover people would go, as long as everyone could take turns reading it. And it wouldn't hurt to have bigger loaves of bread, instead of those tiny minisucle scraps that are often passed around. I would be on the bread baking team and encourage people..there's plenty to go round! Just tear off a big chunk!
 
Lanolin said:
expository method? Can you explain....

I think if churches just read the Bible from cover to cover people would go, as long as everyone could take turns reading it. And it wouldn't hurt to have bigger loaves of bread, instead of those tiny minisucle scraps that are often passed around. I would be on the bread baking team and encourage people..there's plenty to go round! Just tear off a big chunk!
Click to expand...
Expository preaching is a method of detailing what scripture means. It tends to be literal and adheres to the idea that the Bible says what it means and means what it says. There are a few ways of doing it but I prefer the lectio continua method of reading the Bible verse by verse and explaining it (I didn’t know that’s what it was called until I read the Wiki). A lot of Cavalry Chapel churches use that method.

Expository preaching - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
 
crossnote said:
It sounds like you punted at the word 'failings' instead of 'sins'.
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Not really. The concept of sin requires an acceptance of the existence of God and acknowledgement of God’s preeminence. Unlike 1st century Mid East, men today doubt the existence of God himself. Today’s unbelievers have such twisted notions about what is meant by God, and sin. Starting with the word sin has too much baggage to start the conversation there. So, one introduces God as a source of personal freedom and personal strength. The pejorative word “sin” is "aimed" not at them, but at myself.

To be sure, before one can accept Christ’s payment for their personal sin, they must understand what sin is, and who God (and Christ) is, but I do not think leading with that is the best approach.

To start directly with the sinfulness of man, particularly the sin of the one to whom one is witnessing requires too many changes in how one thinks about the world, and ultimately himself. That those changes are necessary is not the point. It is too easy for the enemy to lead the worldly man away by saying this has no relationship to their life.

To approach the subject of God’s existence from the standpoint of someone whose main activity is in taking note and punishing doers of evil misses His most fundamental attribute: His Love.

Instead, my approach introduces sin in the context of _my_ sin, and God’s response to my sin in positive terms. But then when inviting the person to accept the work of Christ, I use the less charged word “failings”. Few, even among the unbelievers will be unable to connect the two.

I know many believe we need more fire and brimstone preached. I can think of very few believers who have given a testimony of being swayed when a preacher called either him, or the manner he lives sinful. Where it is, is most usually the culmination of more subtle working of the Spirit in the life of the new believer.

In my opinion, we are too quick to volunteer to be the prosecutor or Judge. It is much more enjoyable to be the one pointing the finger and pronouncing judgement than it is to be the one offering his life for examination. But, no volunteer was requested. The position is filled by the Spirit.
 
Skipper said:
Expository preaching is a method of detailing what scripture means. It tends to be literal and adheres to the idea that the Bible says what it means and means what it says. There are a few ways of doing it but I prefer the lectio continua method of reading the Bible verse by verse and explaining it (I didn’t know that’s what it was called until I read the Wiki). A lot of Cavalry Chapel churches use that method.

Expository preaching - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
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Yes. There is "Expository" and then there is "Topical".

Both serve their purposes and both are acceptable. Some preachers alternate as they see fit and are lead to do so.
 
Skipper said:
Expository preaching is a method of detailing what scripture means. It tends to be literal and adheres to the idea that the Bible says what it means and means what it says. There are a few ways of doing it but I prefer the lectio continua method of reading the Bible verse by verse and explaining it (I didn’t know that’s what it was called until I read the Wiki). A lot of Cavalry Chapel churches use that method.

Expository preaching - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
Click to expand...
Calvary*
 
Siloam said:
To approach the subject of God’s existence from the standpoint of someone whose main activity is in taking note and punishing doers of evil misses His most fundamental attribute: His Love.
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What if I turned that around and said, "To approach the subject of God’s existence from the standpoint of someone whose main activity is allowing sinners into his presence willy nilly, misses his most fundamental attribute...His Holiness.
 
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