The TWO NEW Covenants -Miles J. Stanford

netchaplain said:
Hi Mistman! The New Testament (Covenant) in Christ's blood is not the same New Covenant for the Israelites, hence, two new covenants.

"For this is my blood of the new testament (covenant), which is shed for many for the remission of sins" (Mat 26:28). This New Covenant is now for Jews and Gentiles.
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G'day netchaplain, I have a question, a poser, a query. For there to be a 'new covenant', there must be an old one else the 'new' is just an original.....yes?
'New' in connection to a testament means an updated testament not the 'first' testament.
So, OK the Abrahamic Covenant is the old one for the National Israelis...the Israelites, that is to be replaced by the new one spoken of in Jer 31:31
Where is the 'old' covenant or testament that Jesus' blood testament will replace seeing as how it is a 'New' one.?? And to whom was Jesus speaking at the last supper? was it to the gentiles? was it to the disciples who were Israelites?...Whom?
If Jesus was talking to Israelites...national Jews, why did He bid them to "do this in remembrance of me" ? why would he introduce a sacrament from the Gentile covenant into a Jews only covenant?
I'm :confused: because you say" This New Covenant is now for Jews and Gentiles"

blessings,
calvin
 
Hey guys, no need to clash over this subject imo. It is simple and not so material as... I am certain we all agree that nobody goes to The Father except by Christ (John 14:6). Misty I agree 100% with you that there is ONE covenant. But at the same time I can understand the confusion on two because of the wording of 'new' and 'old' covenants.

I see God having ONE 'ultimate' covenant / agreement with mankind and 4 different covenants / agreements that are applicable to the day mankind is living in to achieve that one 'ultimate' covenant.

The ultimate covenant = Mankind planned in Christ before the foundations of the earth.

Covenants in place in order to achieve the one 'ultimate' covenant:
1) Pre-Christ's resurrection (Old covenant) = Saved by obedience to laws from God. A good example of those outside the Jewish race saved is Nineveh. Jonah being God's prophet introducing God's laws which were obeyed and resulted in the people of Nineveh being found in Christ for obeying God's prophet.
2) After Christ's resurrection (New covenant) = Saved by faith and acceptance of Christ. The laws of God NOT changing but being better understood by spiritual revelation from The Holy Spirit / written on our heart. Paul's gospel primarily, being there for us. As Paul says 'in my opinion as one entrusted by God to give an opinion'.
3) After rapture (Future covenant) = Whether you are Jew or gentile, you listen to the two prophets from God and reject the mark of the beast. You go straight to heaven for this (Rev 14:6-11).
4) After millennium (Final covenant) = Reject the devil after having lived your entire life with the physical presence of Jesus and the resurrected saints (Rev 20:7-10).
 
II - ISRAEL'S NEW COVENANT
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I must say, imo it is unnecessary confusion to differentiate between covenants to the Jews, gentiles and Christians. Rather read it as covenants to mankind. Covenants / Agreements in place to those rejecting Christ and to those accepting Christ. At every dispensation the gentiles have been grafted in with the Jews.
 
KingJ said:
Hey guys, no need to clash over this subject imo. It is simple and not so material as... I am certain we all agree that nobody goes to The Father except by Christ (John 14:6). Misty I agree 100% with you that there is ONE covenant. But at the same time I can understand the confusion on two because of the wording of 'new' and 'old' covenants.

I see God having ONE 'ultimate' covenant / agreement with mankind and 4 different covenants / agreements that are applicable to the day mankind is living in to achieve that one 'ultimate' covenant.

The ultimate covenant = Mankind planned in Christ before the foundations of the earth.

Covenants in place in order to achieve the one 'ultimate' covenant:
1) Pre-Christ's resurrection (Old covenant) = Saved by obedience to laws from God. A good example of those outside the Jewish race saved is Nineveh. Jonah being God's prophet introducing God's laws which were obeyed and resulted in the people of Nineveh being found in Christ for obeying God's prophet.
2) After Christ's resurrection (New covenant) = Saved by faith and acceptance of Christ. The laws of God NOT changing but being better understood by spiritual revelation from The Holy Spirit / written on our heart. Paul's gospel primarily, being there for us. As Paul says 'in my opinion as one entrusted by God to give an opinion'.
3) After rapture (Future covenant) = Whether you are Jew or gentile, you listen to the two prophets from God and reject the mark of the beast. You go straight to heaven for this (Rev 14:6-11).
4) After millennium (Final covenant) = Reject the devil after having lived your entire life with the physical presence of Jesus and the resurrected saints (Rev 20:7-10).
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Hi KingJ,

I did not have a problem with what you said until you got to "covenants 3 and 4. I do not necessarily agree in some things but as long as the culminating and ultimate covenant was the New Covenant in Christ Jesus which is the ONLY one by which ANY are saved (the Law of Moses cannot save, only condemn as Christ and His Apostles frequently explained) the matters were of no consequence.

However it is important to note that the New Covenant in Christ's blood is the ONLY and LAST covenant remaining. Anybody who is not saved by THIS covenant BEFORE He returns will not be saved. When Christ returns He returns to judge the world - AND to destroy it. AT His return those who are not saved BY the time of His return perish along with the Earth, this is what the Bible itself declares. It has been thrashed to death here on CFS before but the inescapable truth of the matter is that the Bible unquestioningly declares that the 1,000 years Revelation speaks of occurs BEFORE Christ returns and ALL the rest of the Dead in Christ are raised at His coming, NOT after. But that is a whole different discussion that has already been abundantly discussed before. The threads are still around somewhere if anybody wants to look them up.

But rest assured I am not arguing, merely making observations of facts and what the words of the Bible say. People will either believe it or not, I have no control over that but it still does not alter the facts. People have to seek and look for the truth and judge these things for themselves.
 
I belong to the camp believing pre-trib rapture, post-trib millennium :). But either way, I agree with you. The only covenant with man is 'us being in-Christ'. We must be careful in our explanations of the covenants. The unsaved we preach to always interpret it as God showing preference.
 
My dear friend. In referance to item #3 of your post #22................
I would say that one MUST believe upon the Lord Jesus to be save according to John 14:6 and then in addition to that, one must refuse the marl of the beast in order to be saved.

I would also say that they do not "go straight to heaven" for this act. The dead in Christ who refuse the mark of the beast will go to heaven upon their death. Many will survive the tribulation and go into the 1000 year rule with Christ as mortal humans.
 
Major said:
My dear friend. In referance to item #3 of your post #22................
I would say that one MUST believe upon the Lord Jesus to be save according to John 14:6 and then in addition to that, one must refuse the marl of the beast in order to be saved.

I would also say that they do not "go straight to heaven" for this act. The dead in Christ who refuse the mark of the beast will go to heaven upon their death. Many will survive the tribulation and go into the 1000 year rule with Christ as mortal humans.
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I completely agree!
 
Hi Mistman! It's not common knowledge yet but Paul is talking to Jews in Gal 3, esp. v 29. This entire chapter is in direct reference to those who were under the Law (Jews) pre-cross dispensation. Then Paul explains what their standing can be now in the post-cross dispensation. Even Jews then and now attempt to live by the Law which Christ replaced with the New Covenant in His blood. They don't know it's to no avail to be under the Law now.
 
Hi Major and KingJ! I believe when God causes Israel and Judah to walk in His statutes and put His Spirit in them, then they will believe in His Son, but it will be a belief by sight.
 
Hi Calvin! I will try to respond to this: ("Where is the 'old' covenant or testament that Jesus' blood testament will replace seeing as how it is a 'New' one.??) The Old Covenant is the Ten Commandments and the statutes listed in the first five bools of the Bible, which Christ fulfilled, then removed (Heb 10:9). This covenant was available to the Jews only and was not eternal.

The New Covenant, which Christ "established", is in "His blood of the new testament (covenant--Mat 26:28). This new covenant is to all who choose to be in Christ and will be eternal (Heb 13:20).

The New Covenent of the Jews will not ocurr until later. It won't be like the Old Covneant and it will be eternal.
"Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day [that] I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt" (Jer 31:31, 32). This covenant will also be to the Jews only.
"And I will establish My covenant between Me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee" (Gen 17:7).
 
Calvin, I would also like to reply to this: "And to whom was Jesus speaking at the last supper? was it to the gentiles? was it to the disciples who were Israelites?...Whom?
If Jesus was talking to Israelites...national Jews, why did He bid them to "do this in remembrance of me" ? why would he introduce a sacrament from the Gentile covenant into a Jews only covenant?
Jesus was speeking to His twelve disciples (Mat 26:20) at the last supper and this is where commuion was inagurated. By Christ with the Jews first, not the Gentiles. All things of salvation were "to the Jews first, then to the Gentiles" (Rom 1:16, Jhn 4:22). Along with His Apostles, many Jews and Gentiles have come to Christ but most of the Jews, then and now, will not believe in Him until the Millinnium.
 
I said this: "The New Testament (Covenant) in Christ's blood is not the same New Covenant for the Israelites, hence, two new covenants. " What I meant by this is that the New Covenant now in Christ is not the same as Israel's New Covenant later. Jews now come to Christ as Gentiles come to Christ but most of the Jews, which will be saved, will later come through God's new covenant of Ezek 36:27.
 
Major said:
I would also say that they do not "go straight to heaven" for this act. The dead in Christ who refuse the mark of the beast will go to heaven upon their death. Many will survive the tribulation and go into the 1000 year rule with Christ as mortal humans.
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Well Major As I see it the Bible has this to say regarding the 1000year reign with Christ:
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Rev 20:4,5,6

I see no place here for mortals who have not been blessed with/by the first resurrection. But those who have been so blessed will no longer be mortal; as Paul puts it:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory
1Cor 15:50,51,52,53,54
Just my understanding, others a free to interpret as they feel disposed to do.
Blessings
calvin
 
netchaplain said:
I said this: "The New Testament (Covenant) in Christ's blood is not the same New Covenant for the Israelites, hence, two new covenants. " What I meant by this is that the New Covenant now in Christ is not the same as Israel's New Covenant later. Jews now come to Christ as Gentiles come to Christ but most of the Jews, which will be saved, will later come through God's new covenant of Ezek 36:27.
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thanks for your replies netchaplain. I think the kernel of the misunderstandings/differences is in the way we view God's Israel.
Who is Israel when referred to in Scripture?
Firstly Jacob was renamed Israel by the Lord, but Jacob was one guy. Gen 32:28
Next we see that the descendants of Jacob are called the Children of IsraelGen 32:32
Then we see in Isaiah: “Listen, O coastlands, to Me, And take heed, you peoples from afar!
The LORD has called Me from the womb; From the matrix of My mother He has made mention of My name. 2 And He has made My mouth like a sharp sword; In the shadow of His hand He has hidden Me,
And made Me a polished shaft; In His quiver He has hidden Me.” 3 “And He said to me, ‘You are My servant, O Israel, In whom I will be glorified.’ 4 Then I said, ‘I have labored in vain, I have spent my strength for nothing and in vain; Yet surely my just reward is with the LORD, And my work with my God.’” 5 “And now the LORD says, Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant,
To bring Jacob back to Him, So that Israel is gathered to Him (For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the LORD, And My God shall be My strength), 6 Indeed He says, ‘It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, And to restore the preserved ones of Israel;
I will also give You as a light to the Gentiles, That You should be My salvation to the ends of the earth.’”
Isa 49:1,2,3,4,5,6
Notice two items of interest here, firstly Israel is Jesus, secondly that here Jacob is now referred to by his original name to differentiate him from Israel the spiritual servant of God..Jesus.
Israel is never the meant to be understood as the nation of Israel, but rather the servant/s of the Lord.
If we can now understand the prophesy in Eze 36:27 as being a partner, or the same prophetic event as given in Joel 2:28,29,30,31,32 And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions. 29 And also on My menservants and on My maidservants I will pour out My Spirit in those days.
30 “And I will show wonders in the heavens and in the earth: Blood and fire and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the coming of the great and awesome day of the LORD. 32 And it shall come to pass That whoever calls on the name of the LORD
Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.

Then, there is..can be only one new covenant extended to both Jew and Gentile alike.
It is noteworthy that Paul in dealing with unity in Christ no longer speaks of Israelites as a separate identifiable people, but rather he just talks of Jews and Gentiles Gal 3:28,29
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise. Notice though how Paul has tied this all together in verse 29, All in Christ are Abraham's seed and as such are heirs of the promise; not promises.

blessings,
calvin
 
calvin said:
Well Major As I see it the Bible has this to say regarding the 1000year reign with Christ:
And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. Rev 20:4,5,6

I see no place here for mortals who have not been blessed with/by the first resurrection. But those who have been so blessed will no longer be mortal; as Paul puts it:
Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory
1Cor 15:50,51,52,53,54
Just my understanding, others a free to interpret as they feel disposed to do.
Blessings
calvin
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Calvin.........it is my understanding that the verse you referred to in Rev. 20: 4-6 in fact speak to the DEAD martyers who refused to worship the beast and take his mark. They will rule with Christ for 1000 years. We know that some (remnant) will enter the 1000 year rule as saints who survived the Tribulation period in mortal bodies.

Consider Matthew 25:31-34 which is the judgment of the nations.

These are "living" nations for we see in Rev. 20:7-9 that at the end of the 1000 years, those same nations have now grown and are in the 4 corners of all the world. IF these are NOT living nations with living people then how do we explain the revolution of people in Rev. 20. The dead in Christ who have ruled with Christ for 1000 cn not be in view so then WHO are all those that come from the 4 corners of the world to rebel against Christ.

It is the children of the living saints, when they have been tempted by Satan in Rev. 20:5, fall to his temptation and reject Christ. Don't ask me how people living in a perfect world for 1000 years can rebel against Christ but then again, Adam and Eve did not even make to the 2nd week.

Now according to Matt. 22:30 we also know that RESURRECTION believers are like the angels in that they do not procreate according to the Lord Jesus when He was asked. So we know that resurrection saints with glorified bodies can not reproduce.

That can only mean that there are believers who survive the Tribulation and during the 1000 years, they marry and have children for we see those children in rebellion in Rev. 20:7-12.

Also.......we we read the Revelation account, we see that a 1/4 of the population is killed, then a 1/3 and so on........BUT we are never told that ALL the population of the earth is killed.
 
That can only mean that there are believers who survive the Tribulation and during the 1000 years, they marry and have children for we see those children in rebellion in Rev. 20:7-12.
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Well, you can believe as you feel comfy with major, and who's to say your wrong? The passage you have quoted, notice how it more or less ends? their number will be as the sand of the sea.....Hmmm with just 1000 years to work with are you sure they are the unsaved children and not rabbits? ;)
 
Calvin, What you noted here is partly true: "Israel is never the meant to be understood as the nation of Israel, but rather the servant/s of the Lord." The people of Israel as a whole represent the nation Israel which is what scripture, esp. Paul, referrs to.

Your correct in stating that the name Israel also is the intended use for "the obedient in God" but under a covenant, and this is why Isaiah at this time entitled the name to Christ because He is the true Israel or Child and Son of God. This is to inform us that God will bring the people of Israel to their promised place in Him.

The name Israel was given before the split with Juda and after the captivity.
 
calvin said:
Well, you can believe as you feel comfy with major, and who's to say your wrong? The passage you have quoted, notice how it more or less ends? their number will be as the sand of the sea.....Hmmm with just 1000 years to work with are you sure they are the unsaved children and not rabbits? ;)
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Pretty sure.

You see, we do not know HOW many people will survive the Tribulation period.

Let me give you a real time example. On Janurary 29, 1973 the USA accepted and passed the legislation of Roe verses Wade which legalized abortion. Since that date to today, 39 years..........a stagering 58 MILLION people have been killed. That is just from a nation of approx. 300 million.

Now take just that one nation and do the math and 58 million x 1000 years comes out to be a figure my calculator can not print out. Now if if apply that to all the nation that go into the 1000 year Rule it seems to me that we will have a lot of people at the end of the 1000 years or better said...........A LOT OF SAN OF THE SEA.
 
Calvin, on the thinking of peple surviving the Tribulation and entering the 1000 year Rule of Christ please consider ........

Isaiah 11:6-12
"Version (NKJV)
“ The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, The leopard shall lie down with the young goat,
The calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little child shall lead them.
The cow and the bear shall graze; Their young ones shall lie down together; And the lion shall eat straw like the ox. The nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole, And the weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea. “ And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse, Who shall stand as a banner to the people; For the Gentiles shall seek Him, And His resting place shall be glorious.” It shall come to pass in that day That the Lord shall set His hand again the second time To recover the remnant of His people who are left, From Assyria and Egypt, From Pathros and Cush, From Elam and Shinar, From Hamath and the islands of the sea. He will set up a banner for the nations, And will assemble the outcasts of Israel,
And gather together the dispersed of Judah From the four corners of the earth. "

Then Isaiah 65:20...........
Version (NKJV)
“ No more shall an infant from there live but a few days,
Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days;
For the child shall die one hundred years old,
But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed."

It seems to me that really seals the idea of living believers who go into the 1000 year rule of Christ....IMO
 
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