Theorising John 14:6

[Major]

Here's judgement day according to the Bible:

When the Son of Man comes in His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates his sheep from the goats, and He will set the sheep on His right hand but the goats at the left. Then the king will say to those on His right hand, “Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..." Then He will also say to those on the left hand, “Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels..."

You're in or you're out. Period.

Your righteous deeds are as filthy rags to the Lord. There's really no such thing as going through life being sinless other than committing adultery in your mind. And, millions of other people would do as much evil as Hitler did, if given the circumstances and opportunity.

Regardless, God's standard is perfection. Either you achieve it, or you don't.

You are correct my friend IMO. YOU EITHER GO TO HEAVEN OR TO HELL.

The basis for that is founded upon one's belief in the Lord Jesus Christ.......PERIOD!

But since there is ample Biblical proof that ALL who go to heaven will recieve a reward, it is just as Biblically true that ALL who go to hell will be punished by the amount of knowledge they had. Therefore, there WILL BE DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT IN HELL BUT ALL who reject Christ will be in hell.

Luke 12:47-49 present the Biblical fact that there will be degrees of punishment based on what one knows in his lifetime about God.

The torment of hell will not be uniformly felt. The light one possesses will determine how responsible one is. Some will be found more guility than others BUT NO LOST MAN CAN CLAIM INNOCENCE IN THAT DAY.

Can that be confirmed by other Bible quotes?????????

Matthew 11:20-24..........
"Then He began to rebuke the cities in which most of His mighty works had been done, because they did not repent: “Woe to you, Chorazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! For if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say to you, it will be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon in the day of judgment than for you. And you, Capernaum, who are exalted to heaven, will be brought down to Hades; for if the mighty works which were done in you had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say to you that it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment than for you.”

Jesus clearly teaches us here that men will be judged according TO THE OPPORTUNITIES THEY HAVE HAD.
The heathen are lost for no man can enter heaven except he receive the Lord Jesus. To enter heaven one must be BORN AGAIN!!! For one to be born again he must here the gospel!!!

Therefore, the heathen who have never heard the gospel cannot be born again my dear friend. They are lost and will not enter heaven. BUT.........they will not suffer the intense punishment that people who have heard the gospel and rejected it will suffer.

That is the lesson to be learned in the texts I posted.

Matthew 10:12-15
"And when you go into a household, greet it. If the household is worthy, let your peace come upon it. But if it is not worthy, let your peace return to you. And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. Assuredly, I say to you, it will be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah in the day of judgment than for that city!

 

[Major]

There's the parable of the workmen who worked various lengths of time but were all paid the same amount. Matt 20:1-16 There are no degrees of reward or punishment.

In the Luke 12:42:48, the parable you refer to, says the bad manager will be assigned a place with the unbelievers. No degrees of reward or punishment, just being cut up and cast out (v46b). Absolute punishment.

The comment about degrees of whipping is to make the case about expectations. The more someone has, the more that's expected from them. I take this as a warning against self-righteousness. Someone in a better position doing no better than someone in a lower position is not as good as the person in the lower position.

The worst doctrine is created by people trying to infer things from a few verses which are not explicitly said, or which go against things which are explicitly said.

Christianity is all or nothing. Breaking the smallest law makes you guilty of breaking all the law. Having faith in Christ eliminates from your record all sin. This is the explicit teaching of scripture, and it goes against what you are trying to infer. How can you have degrees of punishment when you're guilty of breaking all the law, or none at all?

You are argueing that the breaking of the law is the same whether the law broken is a ceremonial law or a personal law. All are equal and we are guility and we deserve punismnet.

In is logical sense then, all SIN IS EQUAL. Sin is sin......correct?

Now you just said.................
"The worst doctrine is created by people trying to infer things from a few verses which are not explicitly said, or which go against things which are explicitly said."

Personally I think that the worst doctrine is created by people who do not diligently study the whole context of the Word of God and thereby reject the clear teaching of that same Word.

Here is why I say that. If we just read a little of the Scripture we see this....................

John 19:11
Jesus answered, "You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me up to you has the greater sin."

What does that mean??????????

Lets see shall we!!!!

Was Pilate guility ??? YES!!!

Pilate was guilty but notice that Jesus just said that "HE WHO DELIVERED ME UP TO YOU HAS THE GREATER SIN".

Now, no one has to have a degree in Biblical Studies to understand the clear teaching of Jesus right here my friend. Pilate was guility and was responsible for his sins to Christ, but Caiaphas, WHO PLANNED THE ENTIRE PLOT TO KILL CHRIST HAD COMMITTED A GREATER SIN AND WOULD BE MORE ACCOUNTABLE TO GOD!

God assigned different penalties to different sins, based on the offensive or heinous nature of the sin itself. The Mosaic Law is filled with measured responses to sin. God’s Word prescribes punishments that precisely match the crime in question:

Exodus 21:23-25
But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.​

In fact, the Mosaic Law was very careful to make sure that each offender be punished “according to his guilt” and no more:

Deuteronomy 25:2-3
…then it shall be if the wicked man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall then make him lie down and be beaten in his presence with the number of stripes according to his guilt. He may beat him forty times but no more, lest he beat him with many more stripes than these, and your brother be degraded in your eyes.

If you know the truth about God and reject it, you will be punished more than someone who doesn’t yet know better. This is clear from the scripture. Look at these three statements made by Jesus, all in the Gospel of John:

John 9:41
Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, 'We see,' your sin remains.”

John 15:22
“If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin.”

John 15:24
“If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well.”​

Even the writer of Hebrews makes this observation:

Hebrews 10:28-29
How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?​

Once again, those who have heard the TRUTH about Jesus yet reject this truth (trampling “the Son of God under foot”) have placed themselves in a position of even MORE judgment and punishment than those who have never heard this truth. Look at how Peter phrases it:

2 Peter 2:20-22
For if after they have escaped the defilements of the world by the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and are overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would be better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn away from the holy commandment delivered to them.​

The punishment for those who never knew the truth in the first place is only ‘better’ because it is somehow ‘lesser’. Once again, Peter is describing degrees of punishment based on one’s KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH. Finally, let’s see what James has to say on a very similar topic:

James 3:1-2
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we shall incur a stricter judgment. ​

​

 

[mistmann]

I must admit that I am intrigued by this statement that has been made several times:-

But since there is ample Biblical proof that ALL who go to heaven will recieve a reward, it is just as Biblically true that ALL who go to hell will be punished by the amount of knowledge they had. Therefore, there WILL BE DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT IN HELL BUT ALL who reject Christ will be in hell.

WHY is it "just as Biblically true" if the Bible does not actually declare it to be true? And again why "therefore" if the Bible does not actually declare that there is any "therefore". Where is the Biblical authority for the "just as Biblically true" or the "therefore"?

But what DOES intrigue me most is can somebody explain to me HOW somebody gets chucked into the Great Lake of Fire by varying degrees depending on how much they have sinned. Do some get thrown in slowly and some fast? And which is the greater punishment? Do some only get thrown into the "shallow end" and some into the "Deep end". But the Bible does not say the Great lake of fire HAS a shallow end.

I am just curious how there are various degrees of being thrown into a Great Lake of Fire?

Can anybody provide an answer?

 

[Major]

I must admit that I am intrigued by this statement that has been made several times:-

WHY is it "just as Biblically true" if the Bible does not actually declare it to be true? And again why "therefore" if the Bible does not actually declare that there is any "therefore". Where is the Biblical authority for the "just as Biblically true" or the "therefore"?

But what DOES intrigue me most is can somebody explain to me HOW somebody gets chucked into the Great Lake of Fire by varying degrees depending on how much they have sinned. Do some get thrown in slowly and some fast? And which is the greater punishment? Do some only get thrown into the "shallow end" and some into the "Deep end". But the Bible does not say the Great lake of fire HAS a shallow end.

I am just curious how there are various degrees of being thrown into a Great Lake of Fire?

Can anybody provide an answer?

I will respond to your question as best as I can. I am sure there are others who can do more than I am able to do.

Your comment on "shallow and deep" end was shall I say.....different.

The truth is.........I have no clue on the HOW.

All I know is that the Scriptures teach it and I believe it and that is all I need.

Revelation 20:15
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

Since Misty asked, lets study this.

"CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE" is how the Scriptures describe what will happen to the un-repentant sinner.
The Bible clearly tells us that the fate of the wicked will be a horrible one.

Matthew 7:21-23....
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Matthew 5:22.....
"But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire."

Matthew 5:29-30.....
"If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell."

Some get excited and involved in trying to fathom the chemistry of this event or theplace thereof. One must confess that the full chemistry of the matter has not been gien neith has it been explained how one who is lost will be "CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE". All we are told is that it will take place and that is enough for me.

What we know from the Scriptures is that in the future the wicked lost who have been previousely seperated from God are both spiritually and physically dead. They are made alive by God at the Second Resurrection.

Revelation 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

They are given resurrection bodies and are brought into the presence of God for judgment as this is 'THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT" .

Revelation 20:11
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

The Lake Of Fire will be a place where the fire will never be quenched.
where
Mark 9:44
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched

It will be a place of CONSCIOUSNESS.
Luke 16:23-24
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

It will be a place of TORMENT
Luke 16:28
"for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’"

No one there will ever leave and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Personally, I would not make light of such a terrible thing to come upon the un-believers to question a deep end or shallow end or anything else. I have many aquantice's that if they died to day they would in fact be in this terrible place..........but that is just me.

How does God do it???? I have no clue.

Will He do it??????? Of that you can bet your eternal soul on it!!

 

[mistmann]

I will respond to your question as best as I can. I am sure there are others who can do more than I am able to do.

Your comment on "shallow and deep" end was shall I say.....different.

The truth is.........I have no clue on the HOW.

All I know is that the Scriptures teach it and I believe it and that is all I need.

Revelation 20:15
"And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the LAKE OF FIRE."

Since Misty asked, lets study this.

"CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE" is how the Scriptures describe what will happen to the un-repentant sinner.
The Bible clearly tells us that the fate of the wicked will be a horrible one.

Matthew 7:21-23....
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’

Matthew 5:22.....
"But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire."

Matthew 5:29-30.....
"If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell."

Some get excited and involved in trying to fathom the chemistry of this event or theplace thereof. One must confess that the full chemistry of the matter has not been gien neith has it been explained how one who is lost will be "CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE". All we are told is that it will take place and that is enough for me.

What we know from the Scriptures is that in the future the wicked lost who have been previousely seperated from God are both spiritually and physically dead. They are made alive by God at the Second Resurrection.

Revelation 20:12-15
And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works. 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

They are given resurrection bodies and are brought into the presence of God for judgment as this is 'THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT" .

Revelation 20:11
Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.

The Lake Of Fire will be a place where the fire will never be quenched.
where
Mark 9:44
‘ Their worm does not die
And the fire is not quenched

It will be a place of CONSCIOUSNESS.
Luke 16:23-24
And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 “Then he cried and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.’

It will be a place of TORMENT
Luke 16:28
"for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also come to this place of torment.’"

No one there will ever leave and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Revelation 20:10
The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Personally, I would not make light of such a terrible thing to come upon the un-believers to question a deep end or shallow end or anything else. I have many aquantice's that if they died to day they would in fact be in this terrible place..........but that is just me.

How does God do it???? I have no clue.

Will He do it??????? Of that you can bet your eternal soul on it!!

Major, the argument you were making was:-

"But since there is ample Biblical proof that ALL who go to heaven will recieve a reward, it is just as Biblically true that ALL who go to hell will be punished by the amount of knowledge they had. Therefore, there WILL BE DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT IN HELL BUT ALL who reject Christ will be in hell."

The point of my post was not only asking you to provide BIBLICAL authority for your declaration But how is it that there can be "degrees of punishment" for the sinner if ALL who are not found in the book of LIfe receive the exact SAME punishment?

Your post is very long but it does nothing at all to answer either question. The questions remain unanswered. and no biblical authority for your claim provided.

 

[Major]

Major, the argument you were making was:-

"But since there is ample Biblical proof that ALL who go to heaven will recieve a reward, it is just as Biblically true that ALL who go to hell will be punished by the amount of knowledge they had. Therefore, there WILL BE DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT IN HELL BUT ALL who reject Christ will be in hell."

The point of my post was not only asking you to provide BIBLICAL authority for your declaration But how is it that there can be "degrees of punishment" for the sinner if ALL who are not found in the book of LIfe receive the exact SAME punishment?

Your post is very long but it does nothing at all to answer either question. The questions remain unanswered. and no biblical authority for your claim provided.

As someone who makes very long posts, I do not see how the one I did would be a concern for you at all.

If you had read post #24, you would have seen the Scriptures I already posted on this subject. But I can do this for you as you seem to not understand this teaching.

As for your thinking that " But how is it that there can be "degrees of punishment" for the sinner if ALL who are not found in the book of LIfe receive the exact SAME punishment" I don't think is a valid comment. I do not think thar was said but again if you read comment #21 I believe that is the right answer.

First, the unified testimony of Scripture is that God is perfectly just and will reward and punish each person in accordance with what he or she has done.

Psalm 62:12 (NKJV)


12 Also to You, O Lord, belongs mercy;
For You render to each one according to his work

Proverbs 24:12 (NKJV)


12 If you say, “Surely we did not know this,”
Does not He who weighs the hearts consider it?
He who keeps your soul, does He not know it?
And will He not render to each man according to his deeds?

Jeremiah 17:10 (NKJV)


10 I, the Lord, search the heart,
I test the mind,
Even to give every man according to his ways,
According to the fruit of his doings.

Ezekiel 18:20 (NKJV)


20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself

1 Corinthians 3:8 (NKJV)


8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

2 Corinthians 5:10 (NKJV)


10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Furthermore, the Bible is clear that with greater revelation and responsibility comes stricter judgment.

James 3:1 (NKJV)


3 My brethren, let not many of you become teachers, knowing that we shall receive a stricter judgment.

Jesus warned the Pharisees that they would “be punished most severely” for their willful hypocrisy.

Luke 20:47 (NKJV)


47 who devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation.”

In denouncing the cities where most of his miracles had been performed, Jesus said, “Woe to you, Korazin! Woe to you, Bethsaida! If the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes” (Matthew 11:21). Thus, said Jesus, “It will be more bearable for Tyre and Sidon on the day of judgment than for you”
(v. 22). Moreover, Jesus used the metaphor of physical torture to warn his hearers that those who knowingly disobey will experience greater torment in hell than those who disobey in ignorance (Luke 12:47–48).
God is perfectly just and will reward and punish each person in accordance with what he or she has done.

Finally, the canon of Scripture ratifies the common-sense notion that not all sins are created equal (cf. John 19:11). To think a murderous thought is sin; to carry that thought to its logical conclusion is far graver sin. Every sin is an act of rebellion against a holy God, but some sins carry far more serious consequences than others and thus receive severer punishment in this life and the next. Indeed, according to Scripture the torment of Hitler’s hell will greatly exceed that of the less wicked.

Now if you reject that teaching then you are welcome to do so. I will not argue with you over it. If these Scripture do not satisfy your question, then I suggest that you do the study instead of asking me to do it for you. It is something I learned more years ago than I can remember.

 

[netchaplain]

I believe the greatest heart ache is the fact that the majority of mankind isn't going to choose the way to eternal life for "many there be which go in thereat"--Mt 7:13, 14. This only increases the urgency of our outreach to the lost.

I believe God foreknew that the worth of the "few" is greater than the perishing of the "many".

Love To All

 

[fil3232003]

Hello all

Ok, so I have been theorising John 14:6 and would really appreciate your input and thoughts.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"

Facts:
- God is just and no respector of persons.
- Jesus died for all mankind.
- Nobody comes to God the Father except through Jesus.
- The Holy Spirit revealed Jesus's true identity to Peter.

Concluding statements of fact:
- Nobody will reach judgement day without having had an equal and fair opportunity to accept or reject Jesus.
- Just as Peter was revealed the truth by The Holy Spirit, likewise all humans will have this moment in time where there spirit will be ready to see Jesus for who He is and what He stands for and then accept or reject Him (equal conditions for all).
- No matter what you believe (islam, hindu, atheist), your ''equal and fair opportunity'' to accept or reject Jesus is coming. If anything being a faithful God-fearing person will improve your desire to accept Jesus on that day.
- Cannibals that died on remote islands and never heard the gospel will too receive their ''equal and fair opportunity'' oneday to accept or reject Jesus.
- You cannot go to hell unless you have rejected Jesus and you cannot reject Jesus unless you have had an equal and fair opportunity to accept Him.
- The timing of this fair opportunity is irrelevant, it can be on earth, spiritual waiting place or enroute to a waiting place, whats relevant is that God will be blameless on judgement day as you would have been treated eqauly and fairly just as everyone else.
- No human can truly convert somoene, as only The Holy Spirit / or God can sow the seed of Jesus. Christians can only toil the soil.
- Babies / retards will also have their equal and fair opportunity, for all mankind is guilty of sin (Perhaps in the millenium of peace?).

An equal and fair opportunity to accept or reject Jesus entails :

- You are mentally fit to make the decision
- You are spiritually aware of the full impact of your decision
- The Holy Spirit / God sows the seed of Jesus in the moment. (ie, you have a deep spiritual encounter with Jesus, aka God, as Jesus is God in the flesh)

Common explanations are that God's creation testifies of Him and you will be judged on the light you have received. John 14:6 clearly says Jesus and not ''light you have received'' or wind blowing pretty little leaves.

The Holy Spirit would have to testify before God of ALL mankind, that have accepted or rejected Jesus.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

1. It was Thomas who asked our Lord about the "way."

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Jesus, by saying, "I am the WAY," introduced Himself in His role as "SON of God" as the MODEL to Thomas and other Disciples which was written by Paul in:

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

NO other human being can be a MODEL since:

Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

2. And it was Thomas who asked the "truth" who, before, he doubted our Lord. Jesus therefore introduced Himself as the TRUTH that David spoke of HIM!

Psalms 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Presumably David was thinking of the FATHER, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, for by then, JESUS was not yet born in Bethlehem. Hence, to Thomas our Lord Jesus Christ revealed His primarily as the "FATHER in the flesh."

(To be continued)

 

[mistmann]

As someone who makes very long posts, I do not see how the one I did would be a concern for you at all.

If you had read post #24, you would have seen the Scriptures I already posted on this subject. But I can do this for you as you seem to not understand this teaching.

As for your thinking that " But how is it that there can be "degrees of punishment" for the sinner if ALL who are not found in the book of LIfe receive the exact SAME punishment" I don't think is a valid comment. I do not think thar was said but again if you read comment #21 I believe that is the right answer.

First, the unified testimony of Scripture is that God is perfectly just and will reward and punish each person in accordance with what he or she has done.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall DIE.

Ezekiel 18:24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.

Ro 6:23 For the wages of sin is death;

Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I will leave it for those here to ponder for themselves whether or not the Bible teaches that there is but ONE punishment for sin or not. I am always happy to allow the written word of God to judge who is and who is not teaching according to it.

There may be rewards in Heaven but outside of Heaven there is only - DEATH.

 

[Major]

I will leave it for those here to ponder for themselves whether or not the Bible teaches that there is but ONE punishment for sin or not. I am always happy to allow the written word of God to judge who is and who is not teaching according to it.

There may be rewards in Heaven but outside of Heaven there is only - DEATH.

Your comment of
"I am always happy to allow the written word of God to judge who is and who is not teaching according to it."

I for one expect and demand that be the case without exception my dear friend.

Now, I do have a question of you. When you said........" there is but ONE punishment for sin or not."

What are you actually trying to say???

 

[mistmann]

Your comment of
"I am always happy to allow the written word of God to judge who is and who is not teaching according to it."

I for one expect and demand that be the case without exception my dear friend.

Now, I do have a question of you. When you said........" there is but ONE punishment for sin or not."

What are you actually trying to say???

As I pointed out by quoting a number of passages The Bible declares that the wages of sin (ALL sin) is death. That the one who sins shall die (unless atoned for by the blood of Christ, of course). That no matter how righteous one has been in the past if they turn from righteousness to sin the righteousness shall be forgotten and they shall die for their sin. That all not in the Lamb's Book of Life suffer the second DEATH in the Lake of Fire.

There are no varying degrees of being DEAD. DEATH is a SINGULAR punishment. The Bible declares DEATH as the only punishment for sin. And there is only ONE way to escape it.

BUT I left it for those here to judge for themselves what the written word of the Lord declares. I know what it says but truth is something people should (and most thankfully do) discern for themselves in counsel with the word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit. They should not allow others to just tell them what they should and should not believe.

 

[Major]

As I pointed out by quoting a number of passages The Bible declares that the wages of sin (ALL sin) is death. That the one who sins shall die (unless atoned for by the blood of Christ, of course). That no matter how righteous one has been in the past if they turn from righteousness to sin the righteousness shall be forgotten and they shall die for their sin. That all not in the Lamb's Book of Life suffer the second DEATH in the Lake of Fire.

There are no varying degrees of being DEAD. DEATH is a SINGULAR punishment. The Bible declares DEATH as the only punishment for sin. And there is only ONE way to escape it.

BUT I left it for those here to judge for themselves what the written word of the Lord declares. I know what it says but truth is something people should (and most thankfully do) discern for themselves in counsel with the word of God and the indwelling Holy Spirit. They should not allow others to just tell them what they should and should not believe.

OK. I understand. I did not want you to think I was placing something on you that was not intended. I thought maybe you were spaeking to annihilation.

YES......I agree. There are no degrees of DEAD.
YES......The Bible declares DEATH as the only punishment for sin.
YES......There is only ONE way to escape death and that is the Lord Jesus.

BUT Biblically speaking........DEATH is not just the "end of living".

DEATH also means "SEPERATION". Adam and Eve DIED the moment they ate the fruit.......SPIRATUALLY!
They lived on another 900 or so years PHYSICALLY.

So to get a corrct understanding we need to go to Revelation 20 and consider what will happen according to the written Word of God.

When we read Rev. 20:10-15 we see that we are at the end of the thousand years reign and rule of Christ and we are at the Great White Throne. It's up in space somewhere. It's not on the earth, because the earth has fled away. So now in the resurrection of the unjust, they are brought back bodily because that's what resurrection denotes. Now, back to Revelation 20. Here the lost stand before the Lord, Who in their case is the Judge, and not the Savior. As Judge, He shows them their record, and there will be degrees of punishment. Jesus made that so plain, when He said to the people of Capernaum in Matthew 11, the following:

Matthew 11:23,24"And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, `That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.'"

My dear friends........do not believe what I say. Read the words written in the Bible for yourselves.
Do you see it??????????
That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.'" !!!!!

So He makes it very plain that the people of Capernaum would suffer more in their eternal doom, than the horrible people of Sodom.

Revelation 20:5a
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished..."
So there's coming a day when they're brought back on the scene to have their day before our Lord to see what degrees of punishment they will receive in the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20:5b
"This is the first resurrection."

Revelation 20:6
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection

: (the believers) on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Revelation 20:11-15
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,

(which will be Christ) from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12. And I saw the dead, (the lost who have been down in Hell in torment ever since they died) small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead (those spiritually dead who never entered into salvation) were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

(remember a believer will never face second death, because we experience our second death when we identified with Christ when He died on the cross. Remember Paul says, `we are crucified with Christ!')
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So these unbelievers will be resurrected out of Hell and given a body that is fit for the Lake of Fire. That sounds horrible doesn't it? But that's what the Book says.

And the punishment will be eternal, on going forever and ever.

 

[mistmann]

OK. I understand. I did not want you to think I was placing something on you that was not intended. I thought maybe you were spaeking to annihilation.

YES......I agree. There are no degrees of DEAD.
YES......The Bible declares DEATH as the only punishment for sin.
YES......There is only ONE way to escape death and that is the Lord Jesus.

BUT Biblically speaking........DEATH is not just the "end of living".

DEATH also means "SEPERATION". Adam and Eve DIED the moment they ate the fruit.......SPIRATUALLY!
They lived on another 900 or so years PHYSICALLY.

So to get a corrct understanding we need to go to Revelation 20 and consider what will happen according to the written Word of God.

When we read Rev. 20:10-15 we see that we are at the end of the thousand years reign and rule of Christ and we are at the Great White Throne. It's up in space somewhere. It's not on the earth, because the earth has fled away. So now in the resurrection of the unjust, they are brought back bodily because that's what resurrection denotes. Now, back to Revelation 20. Here the lost stand before the Lord, Who in their case is the Judge, and not the Savior. As Judge, He shows them their record, and there will be degrees of punishment. Jesus made that so plain, when He said to the people of Capernaumin Matthew 11, the following:

Matthew 11:23,24"And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, `That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.'"

My dear friends........do not believe what I say. Read the words written in the Bible for yourselves.
Do you see it??????????
That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.'" !!!!!

So He makes it very plain that the people of Capernaum would suffer more in their eternal doom, than the horrible people of Sodom.

Revelation 20:5a
"But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished..."
So there's coming a day when they're brought back on the scene to have their day before our Lord to see what degrees of punishment they will receive in the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20:5b
"This is the first resurrection."

Revelation 20:6
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection

: (the believers) on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priest of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years."

Revelation 20:11-15
"And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it,

(which will be Christ) from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12. And I saw the dead, (the lost who have been down in Hell in torment ever since they died) small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead (those spiritually dead who never entered into salvation) were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

(remember a believer will never face second death, because we experience our second death when we identified with Christ when He died on the cross. Remember Paul says, `we are crucified with Christ!')
15. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

So these unbelievers will be resurrected out of Hell and given a body that is fit for the Lake of Fire. That sounds horrible doesn't it? But that's what the Book says.

And the punishment will be eternal, on going forever and ever.

Regarding your quote of Matthew 11:23,24 take careful note that it speaks of the day of JUDGEMENT, not the day of punishment. The point being these people will be JUDGED more harshly than those of Sodom not that they will receive greater punishment. In other words they have LESS excuse for their behaviour than the people of Sodom. For if the works that were done in Caperaum were done in Sodom those in Sodom would have repented, but those in Capernaum did not. But unless their names are in the Book of Life they are ALL to be EQUALLY cast into the Great Lake of Fire.

As to the rest of the post it does not address the issue at hand at all which is your claim of varying punishments for sin.

But as I said people can judge for themselves what the word of the Lord declares.

 

[Major]

Of course I did not feel I needed to explain.......but, the ones in front of the Lord are the LOST of all ages and because they died in their sins, they are guilty and will be judged as such and they will be PUNISHED, which is the lake of fire.

So then Misstman, there is nothing I can add that would help you in understanding the Word of God.

I will leave the subject as stated as you said correctly........for others to judge.

Good day.

 

[Arius]

There are no varying degrees of being DEAD. DEATH is a SINGULAR punishment. The Bible declares DEATH as the only punishment for sin. And there is only ONE way to escape it.

Mistmann, we agree. There are people who think punishment of the wicked is only temporary, or otherwise to a finite degree. I believe they are advocating universal salvation of everyone, which gives people permission to reject Jesus. However, this life is the only chance we have to make ourselves right with God.

 

[Major]

Mistmann, we agree. There are people who think punishment of the wicked is only temporary, or otherwise to a finite degree. I believe they are advocating universal salvation of everyone, which gives people permission to reject Jesus. However, this life is the only chance we have to make ourselves right with God.

Absolutly incorrect my friend IMHO.

You have missed the whole point I think.

The punishment of the wicked lost IS NOT TEMPORARY IN ANY WAY WHAT SO EVER.

It is ETERNAL, and ongoing without any end at all.

Universalism is false teaching whereby everyone is saved in the end. Nothing could be further from the truth.

ONLY those who have believed upon and accepted Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior are saved from the judgment and the judgment for the wicked lost is eternal punishmnet in the lake of fire forever and forever.

The accepted teaching and Bible verses I posted IMO teach that those wicked lost will be punished in hell based on the knowledge they had while alive on the earth. The ones who KNEW more about God/Christ will receive the greater punishment than those who knew nothing at all (heathen). ALL the wicked lost will be in the lake of fire and that has nothing to do at all with the false concept of Universalism.

 

[mistmann]

Mistmann, we agree. There are people who think punishment of the wicked is only temporary, or otherwise to a finite degree. I believe they are advocating universal salvation of everyone, which gives people permission to reject Jesus. However, this life is the only chance we have to make ourselves right with God.

More important that we agree with the word of the Lord than just with each other and I think that seems to be the case.

I note that even not hearing (ignorance of) the Law of God is no protection against the penalty of death for sin. Therefore it cannot even be argued that those ignorant of the Law of God might get a lesser punishment for the word of God has declared that ignorance of the Law is of no consequence. For justification is by the DOING of the Law whether you have heard the Law or not.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.)

 

[Major]

More important that we agree with the word of the Lord than just with each other and I think that seems to be the case.

I note that even not hearing (ignorance of) the Law of God is no protection against the penalty of death for sin. Therefore it cannot even be argued that those ignorant of the Law of God might get a lesser punishment for the word of God has declared that ignorance of the Law is of no consequence. For justification is by the DOING of the Law whether you have heard the Law or not.

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; 13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.)

We have hashed this now for long enough so I am not going to add anything else to the "DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT OF THE WICKED LOST IN HELL.

But in your responce #37 I noticed this comment from you..............

"For justification is by the DOING of the Law whether you have heard the Law or not."

I have no intent to argue that with you, but because there are others who read but do not comment I felt the need to make sure we all know that JUSTIFICATION IS BY FAITH AND NOT BY DOING ANYTHING AT ALL MUCH LESS DOING THE LAW.

So I am grateful for the opportunity to explain this Biblically from the Word of God.

What is JUSTIFICATION????
--It is the process through which the individual, alienated from God by sin, is reconciled to God and reckoned just or righteous or as some say correctly, JUST AS IF WE HAD NEVER SINNED, through FAITH in Christ.

Romans 5:1
"Therefore being JUSTIFIED BY FAITH we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ".

Justification is more than forgiveness. We as humans can forgive another for his wrong, but never can we justify him. Forgiveness assumes guilt; therefore, the guilty one cannot be justified. On the other hand, if we justify a man, then he needs no forgiveness, because justification assumes no guilt. But since all men are both guilty and condemned sinners before God, all need both forgiveness and justification before entering the Kingdom of God.

Romans 3:23
"ALL have sinned and come short (approval) of the glory of God".

Justification can be defined as that act of God whereby He declares absolutely righteous any and all who take shelter in the blood of Christ as their only hope for salvation. Justification is a legal term which changes the believing sinner’s standing before God, declaring him acquitted and accepted by God, with the guilt and penalty of his sins put away forever. Justification is the sentence of the Judge in favor of the condemned man, clearing him of all blame and freeing him of every charge. Justification does not make the sinner righteous, but when God sees him “in Christ,” He declares that he is righteous, thereby pronouncing the verdict of “not guilty.” In modern legal concerns, a sentence in any court must be in keeping with the facts presented. A judge has no right to condemn the innocent or to clear the guilty. Only God can clear the guilty.

Romans 8:33"Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies".

All of this comes from God to man without anything we do.

Romans 3:24...........
“Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” .

Just as there was no cause that men should hate our Lord, so there was no cause that God should justify man; but He justifies him “freely,” without a cause. Jesus came with a heart full of love for mankind, but they hated Him. Man’s heart has been evil continually, but God loves him. Justification is something for nothing. In the Latin version the word “freely” is “gratis,” “being justified gratis.” God’s method of justifying men gives us a glorious demonstration of His sovereign grace. Grace has dug a foundation so deep that men have been drinking from its cleansing, justifying stream for centuries.

Romans 3:28......
"For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law".

Paul gave Abraham as an excellent biblical illustration of justification by faith. He says, “. . . Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness”
Romans 4:3, cf. Genesis 15:6; Galatians 3:6.

Abraham had nothing, or did nothing, that would stand boasting before God. He simply believed God, and through his faith in the truth which God had spoken, God in grace freely justified him. It was Abraham’s faith that was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Verse 5 tells us that only one kind of man can be justified; not the self righteous worker, but the ungodly man who believes, for, says Paul:..................
“. . . to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” in Romans 4:5.

Faith is not the end in itself; it is a means to the end.

Abraham’s justification is the pattern of the justification of all men. The principle on which God declared him righteous is the principle on which He declares any man righteous. When God, by a judicial decision, made Abraham a righteous man, He did it on the principle of faith, “that he (Abraham) might be the father of all them that believe” as said in Romans 4:11.
Abraham was justified, not by rites of religion, for circumcision was not required until later, nor by the deeds of the law, for the law was not yet given, but through faith in God’s Word.

 

[mistmann]

We have hashed this now for long enough so I am not going to add anything else to the "DEGREES OF PUNISHMENT OF THE WICKED LOST IN HELL.

But in your responce #37 I noticed this comment from you..............

"For justification is by the DOING of the Law whether you have heard the Law or not."

I have no intent to argue that with you, but because there are others who read but do not comment I felt the need to make sure we all know that JUSTIFICATION IS BY FAITH AND NOT BY DOING ANYTHING AT ALL MUCH LESS DOING THE LAW.

So I am grateful for the opportunity to explain this Biblically from the Word of God.

What is JUSTIFICATION????
--It is the process through which the individual, alienated from God by sin, is reconciled to God and reckoned just or righteous or as some say correctly, JUST AS IF WE HAD NEVER SINNED, through FAITH in Christ.

Romans 5:1
"Therefore being JUSTIFIED BY FAITH we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ".

Justification is more than forgiveness. We as humans can forgive another for his wrong, but never can we justify him. Forgiveness assumes guilt; therefore, the guilty one cannot be justified. On the other hand, if we justify a man, then he needs no forgiveness, because justification assumes no guilt. But since all men are both guilty and condemned sinners before God, all need both forgiveness and justification before entering the Kingdom of God.

Romans 3:23
"ALL have sinned and come short (approval) of the glory of God".

Justification can be defined as that act of God whereby He declares absolutely righteous any and all who take shelter in the blood of Christ as their only hope for salvation. Justification is a legal term which changes the believing sinner’s standing before God, declaring him acquitted and accepted by God, with the guilt and penalty of his sins put away forever. Justification is the sentence of the Judge in favor of the condemned man, clearing him of all blame and freeing him of every charge. Justification does not make the sinner righteous, but when God sees him “in Christ,” He declares that he is righteous, thereby pronouncing the verdict of “not guilty.” In modern legal concerns, a sentence in any court must be in keeping with the facts presented. A judge has no right to condemn the innocent or to clear the guilty. Only God can clear the guilty.

Romans 8:33"Who will bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies".

All of this comes from God to man without anything we do.

Romans 3:24...........
“Being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” .

Just as there was no cause that men should hate our Lord, so there was no cause that God should justify man; but He justifies him “freely,” without a cause. Jesus came with a heart full of love for mankind, but they hated Him. Man’s heart has been evil continually, but God loves him. Justification is something for nothing. In the Latin version the word “freely” is “gratis,” “being justified gratis.” God’s method of justifying men gives us a glorious demonstration of His sovereign grace. Grace has dug a foundation so deep that men have been drinking from its cleansing, justifying stream for centuries.

Romans 3:28......
"For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law".

Paul gave Abraham as an excellent biblical illustration of justification by faith. He says, “. . . Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness”
Romans 4:3, cf. Genesis 15:6; Galatians 3:6.

Abraham had nothing, or did nothing, that would stand boasting before God. He simply believed God, and through his faith in the truth which God had spoken, God in grace freely justified him. It was Abraham’s faith that was reckoned unto him for righteousness. Verse 5 tells us that only one kind of man can be justified; not the self righteous worker, but the ungodly man who believes, for, says Paul:..................
“. . . to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness” in Romans 4:5.

Faith is not the end in itself; it is a means to the end.

Abraham’s justification is the pattern of the justification of all men. The principle on which God declared him righteous is the principle on which He declares any man righteous. When God, by a judicial decision, made Abraham a righteous man, He did it on the principle of faith, “that he (Abraham) might be the father of all them that believe” as said in Romans 4:11.
Abraham was justified, not by rites of religion, for circumcision was not required until later, nor by the deeds of the law, for the law was not yet given, but through faith in God’s Word.

Sorry Major I thought it would have been so obvious to everybody that I was speaking of the declaration of Paul in Rom 2:12 that I quoted that I would not need to explain it. Especially as I had just made it clear that the only way to escape punishment for sin was by the atoning blood of Christ. Obviously I underestimated. So for those who need it I will make it clearer that I was speaking of Paul's declaration in Rom 2:12 as to who is and is not justified under the Law, NOT that it is possible for anybody to actually attain such justification except Christ Jesus Himself.

 

[Major]

Sorry Major I thought it would have been so obvious to everybody that I was speaking of the declaration of Paul in Rom 2:12 that I quoted that I would not need to explain it. Especially as I had just made it clear that the only way to escape punishment for sin was by the atoning blood of Christ. Obviously I underestimated. So for those who need it I will make it clearer that I was speaking of Paul's declaration in Rom 2:12 as to who is and is not justified under the Law, NOT that it is possible for anybody to actually attain such justification except Christ Jesus Himself.

Well Misty, you know how some of old people are. We just read what is said without trying to think up what was meant to be said.

All I know is that you stated.......................
"For justification is by the DOING of the Law whether you have heard the Law or not."

But since you are nowing saying you were refersing to Romans 2:12, lets post that and see what it actually said....

Romans 2:12
"For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law."

Now lets post verse #13 and #14 since it speaks to the subjuect we have been discussing of "degrees of punishment in hell".

Romans 2:13 and 14...
"for NOT the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves."

I hear it said all the time that the heathen are lost because they have not heard of Christ and accepted Him. My friends, they are lost because they are sinners. That is the condition of all humanity. Men are NOT saved by the light they have, THEY ARE JUDGED BY THE LIGHT THEY HAVE.

Since those judged are ALL lost, then PUNISHMENT follows the Judgment based on the light they had in this life. Actually it is really as simple as it sounds and The Bible clearly teaches this.

That leads to another great principle in verse #16....
"in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.:

According to the Word of God, and I know that is what is important to you as it is to me...........
God is going to JUDGE the do-gooders and He will JUDGE them by Jesus who said that "If a man looks upon a woman to lust after her (Matt. 5:27-28) he is in fact guility of adultery."