Theorising John 14:6

[mistmann]

Well Misty, you know how some of old people are. We just read what is said without trying to think up what was meant to be said.

All I know is that you stated.......................
"For justification is by the DOING of the Law whether you have heard the Law or not."

But since you are nowing saying you were refersing to Romans 2:12, lets post that and see what it actually said....

Romans 2:12
"For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law, and as many as have sinned in the law will be judged by the law."

Now lets post verse #13 and #14 since it speaks to the subjuect we have been discussing of "degrees of punishment in hell".

Romans 2:13 and 14...
"for NOT the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified; for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves."

I hear it said all the time that the heathen are lost because they have not heard of Christ and accepted Him. My friends, they are lost because they are sinners. That is the condition of all humanity. Men are NOT saved by the light they have, THEY ARE JUDGED BY THE LIGHT THEY HAVE.

Since those judged are ALL lost, then PUNISHMENT follows the Judgment based on the light they had in this life. Actually it is really as simple as it sounds and The Bible clearly teaches this.

That leads to another great principle in verse #16....
"in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.:

According to the Word of God, and I know that is what is important to you as it is to me...........
God is going to JUDGE the do-gooders and He will JUDGE them by Jesus who said that "If a man looks upon a woman to lust after her (Matt. 5:27-28) he is in fact guility of adultery."

Major, if we are going to be pedantic you will note my earlier post INCLUDED Rom 2:13. Had I thought you were going to make it an issue I would have been very careful to make sure I specified Rom 2:12-13 as I quoted. I just didn't think it would be necessary to be that pedantic to avoid having it made an issue of.

But to be honest you seem to be inventing things to argue about that have nothing to do with either the topic or the discussion or indeed making much sense.

I have made my point and I am sure others can see it for themselves. There is nothing left to discuss. This is Misty .... moving on.

 

[Major]

Major, if we are going to be pedantic you will note my earlier post INCLUDED Rom 2:13. Had I thought you were going to make it an issue I would have been very careful to make sure I specified Rom 2:12-13 as I quoted. I just didn't think it would be necessary to be that pedantic to avoid having it made an issue of.

But to be honest you seem to be inventing things to argue about that have nothing to do with either the topic or the discussion or indeed making much sense.

I have made my point and I am sure others can see it for themselves. There is nothing left to discuss. This is Misty .... moving on.

INVENT THINGS TO ARGUE ABOUT?????

YOU are the one who said these words..........
""For justification is by the DOING of the Law whether you have heard the Law or not."

To speak to your concern......the Word of God is always important in that it be spoken of correctly. Would you really want that not to be corrected????

All I did my friend was to copy and paste exactly what you said. You call that being PEDANTIC, and I call it a mistake in exorgesis.

All I did was to Biblically explain the error of that statement as best I could.

Now Misty. I am not being PEDANTIC neither am I being argumentive. Here is your comment from post #82 under your own thread of "Prophecy v Expectations"..............

"As to evidence it is only evidence if it actually accords with the WRITTEN word of God or with actual REALITY, otherwise it is mere opinion and conjecture. To prove it is erroneous opinion it requires only that it be shown to be not in accordance with the WRITTEN word of God or with actual reality. To support their validity it is sufficient to show that they accord with the written word of God and/or with the actual facts of reality."

Having read that, I would expect you to thank me for explaining the Bible fact of Justification being totally of faith and not works neither in the keeping of the law because that is exactly what I did, no more no less.

Isn't that what you said????
May the Lord bless you.

 

[mistmann]

INVENT THINGS TO ARGUE ABOUT?????

YOU are the one who said these words..........
""For justification is by the DOING of the Law whether you have heard the Law or not."

To speak to your concern......the Word of God is always important in that it be spoken of correctly. Would you really want that not to be corrected????

All I did my friend was to copy and paste exactly what you said. You call that being PEDANTIC, and I call it a mistake in exorgesis.

All I did was to Biblically explain the error of that statement as best I could.

Now Misty. I am not being PEDANTIC neither am I being argumentive. Here is your comment from post #82 under your own thread of "Prophecy v Expectations"..............

"As to evidence it is only evidence if it actually accords with the WRITTEN word of God or with actual REALITY, otherwise it is mere opinion and conjecture. To prove it is erroneous opinion it requires only that it be shown to be not in accordance with the WRITTEN word of God or with actual reality. To support their validity it is sufficient to show that they accord with the written word of God and/or with the actual facts of reality."

Having read that, I would expect you to thank me for explaining the Bible fact of Justification being totally of faith and not works neither in the keeping of the law because that is exactly what I did, no more no less.

Isn't that what you said????
May the Lord bless you.

And in the passage I quoted does not Paul himself declare ""For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." (Rom 2:13)
Therefore is not Paul himself saying it is not a question of whether or not you have heard the Law but only of whether or not you have done what the law requires? How then can you argue that my words are not in accordance with what Paul has written?

Where you err is that our condemnation does not come from DOING the Law but from NOT doing the Law. Paul is correct in declaring that the DOERS of the Law shall be justified. But Paul was also very aware that apart fron Christ Himself there ARE NO doers of the law among mankind, not one. ALL have fallen short of the Law of God.

But you have been quoting these passages all along so you should be well aware my words are in accordance with what Paul has said. It seems to be a case of if you can't "get me" on one argument you will just endlessly keep inventing new arguments until you think you have found one you can "get me" with. Sorry but it is not a game I will play for very long.

I would like the moderators to keep the thread open for others who may want to discuss the thread topic with me or others. However I see no benefit in prolonging this particular discussion between you and I so I will be stopping it from my end before the moderators do. From my side, at least, I will not be pursuing this conversation between us any further.

 

[Major]

And in the passage I quoted does not Paul himself declare ""For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." (Rom 2:13)
Therefore is not Paul himself saying it is not a question of whether or not you have heard the Law but only of whether or not you have done what the law requires? How then can you argue that my words are not in accordance with what Paul has written?

Where you err is that our condemnation does not come from DOING the Law but from NOT doing the Law. Paul is correct in declaring that the DOERS of the Law shall be justified. But Paul was also very aware that apart fron Christ Himself there ARE NO doers of the law among mankind, not one. ALL have fallen short of the Law of God.

But you have been quoting these passages all along so you should be well aware my words are in accordance with what Paul has said. It seems to be a case of if you can't "get me" on one argument you will just endlessly keep inventing new arguments until you think you have found one you can "get me" with. Sorry but it is not a game I will play for very long.

I would like the moderators to keep the thread open for others who may want to discuss the thread topic with me or others. However I see no benefit in prolonging this particular discussion between you and I so I will be stopping it from my end before the moderators do. From my side, at least, I will not be pursuing this conversation between us any further.

No error was made by me and I have do desire to GET YOU.

It seems to me that you are looking for an argument under every rock. That is called "paranoia". I am simply trying to correctly get out the Word of God, no more no less.

YOU made an error in your comments by saying....."""For justification is by the DOING of the Law whether you have heard the Law or not."

I really do not have the energy to go through this but I am for the sake of anyone who is confused by what you posted as a basis for your false comment.. You are actually blaming Paul for your misstake in theology. Again you state........

"Paul is correct in declaring that the DOERS of the Law shall be justified" Of course Paul is right but you are not!

Tragically, anyone who twists the verse you used is really working awfully hard to try and prove an opinion that has no basis.

Romans 2:7 says........
“To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.”
Taken by itself, Romans 2:7 would seem to imply that good works are required for salvation. An even more powerful Scripture that would seem to support this same notion is found in Romans 2:13, “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.”

Now that is the very verse you used is it not?????

Now please careful read Romans 3:20, “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” We have a 100% direct contradiction here. Indeed, this has confused many people who are ignorant of the Scriptures. So what is the answer? Which is it... are we justified by obeying the works of the Law or not? Romans 2:13 says, YES. Romans 3:20 says, NO. Why the contradiction? What's going on here?

The answer is quite simple. There were a group of Jews in Paul's time who believed that they could be saved by keeping the Law. This is abundantly clear from Romans 2:17, “Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God.” Those Jews were RESTING, or relying upon the keeping of God's Law, to save them. The Apostle Paul goes on, from Romans 2:18 to Romans 3:19, to inform the Jews that they hadn't done a very good job of keeping the Law and were a bunch of hypocrites! He concludes his indictment against them with Romans 3:20, “THEREFORE by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

Paul told the Jews in Romans 2:7-13 that if they were to be justified by the Law, then they would have to KEEP IT but none of them had, which is plainly stated in Romans 3:12, “They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” The Jews were resting in a false hope, thinking that they had kept the Law to God's satisfaction; but Paul clearly points out that they had utterly failed to do so. It is impossible for any man or woman to keep God's Law perfectly. Romans 3:23, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” Paul makes clear that the PURPOSE of God's Law is to show men their sinful condition, “...for by the law is the knowledge of sin”

The Apostle Paul reiterates the purpose of God's Law in Romans 7:13, “Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.” The Law shows mankind his inability to please God in his own self-righteousness. No one can keep the whole Law of God, no one. We all fall short of pleasing God. Mankind tried to keep God's Law and utterly failed. God's Law had served its purpose in showing men their sinful condition and; thus, need for a Savior. God DIDN'T give us the Law to merit or work our way into Heaven. This is what many people foolishly believe. That is self-righteousness. Persisting to do good is NOT a part of salvation as the author of evangelicaloutreach.org teaches.
There is NO contradiction in the Scriptures. Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whether or not a person is willing to change their sinful habits has nothing to do with being saved. A changed life is the FRUIT of genuine repentance and not a part of the ROOT of saving-faith. Salvation is receiving; not giving. Eternal life is God's gift to fallen humanity (Romans 5:15; 6:23).

Certainly, “If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2nd Corinthians 5:17); however, the spiritual regeneration which has taken place (i.e., the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ) doesn't mean that immediate reformation will follow. Growth in grace takes time. 1st Peter 2:2 teaches this Biblical truth, “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.” Expecting a babe in Christ to forsake their sinful habits is like expecting a baby to run a marathon. I am not approving of sin or saying it's acceptable for a believer to continue living in sin, not at all; I am simply saying that salvation has absolutely NOTHING to do with cleaning up one's life. The "changed life" comes AFTER a person is saved, as a result of being saved; and not as a requirement to be saved. That's the big difference that so many people don't understand. Salvation is obtained solely by Christ's righteousness, and not by our own self-righteousness or human effort in any way.

I will say this to you and the moderators, I have no desire to argue with you or anyone else, but when the Word of God is incorrectly stated then it is everyones responsibility to note it and correctly post the Word of God as it is written.

I hate to see you go, but you do what you feel is best. IMO I agree with revlynns advice of three bites at the apple is enough and so I agree that we should move on. There is enough here for anyone interested to look up and do their own research on the subject and that is what I encourage all to do.

Good day and God bless.

 

[Major]

OOoooops. I hit the wrong key and wrote:
No error was made by me and I have do desire to GET YOU.

Should have been.....
No error was made by me and I have NO desire to GET YOU.
Then I was thinking, IF I did get him, what in the world would I do with him???? (lol)

 

[fil3232003]

Hello all

Ok, so I have been theorising John 14:6 and would really appreciate your input and thoughts.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"

Facts:
- God is just and no respector of persons.
- Jesus died for all mankind.
- Nobody comes to God the Father except through Jesus.
- The Holy Spirit revealed Jesus's true identity to Peter.

Concluding statements of fact:
- Nobody will reach judgement day without having had an equal and fair opportunity to accept or reject Jesus.
- Just as Peter was revealed the truth by The Holy Spirit, likewise all humans will have this moment in time where there spirit will be ready to see Jesus for who He is and what He stands for and then accept or reject Him (equal conditions for all).
- No matter what you believe (islam, hindu, atheist), your ''equal and fair opportunity'' to accept or reject Jesus is coming. If anything being a faithful God-fearing person will improve your desire to accept Jesus on that day.
- Cannibals that died on remote islands and never heard the gospel will too receive their ''equal and fair opportunity'' oneday to accept or reject Jesus.
- You cannot go to hell unless you have rejected Jesus and you cannot reject Jesus unless you have had an equal and fair opportunity to accept Him.
- The timing of this fair opportunity is irrelevant, it can be on earth, spiritual waiting place or enroute to a waiting place, whats relevant is that God will be blameless on judgement day as you would have been treated eqauly and fairly just as everyone else.
- No human can truly convert somoene, as only The Holy Spirit / or God can sow the seed of Jesus. Christians can only toil the soil.
- Babies / retards will also have their equal and fair opportunity, for all mankind is guilty of sin (Perhaps in the millenium of peace?).

An equal and fair opportunity to accept or reject Jesus entails :

- You are mentally fit to make the decision
- You are spiritually aware of the full impact of your decision
- The Holy Spirit / God sows the seed of Jesus in the moment. (ie, you have a deep spiritual encounter with Jesus, aka God, as Jesus is God in the flesh)

Common explanations are that God's creation testifies of Him and you will be judged on the light you have received. John 14:6 clearly says Jesus and not ''light you have received'' or wind blowing pretty little leaves.

The Holy Spirit would have to testify before God of ALL mankind, that have accepted or rejected Jesus.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

"him" - refers to Thomas who doubted Jesus Christ.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Therefore, it is expected many many people also doubt WHO Jesus Christ really is. How could Apostles JOHN see JESUS CHRIST in the following?

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

WHO can honestly say they can truly and clearly understand the foregoing TRUTH about JESUS?

 

[KingJ]

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

"him" - refers to Thomas who doubted Jesus Christ.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Therefore, it is expected many many people also doubt WHO Jesus Christ really is. How could Apostles JOHN see JESUS CHRIST in the following?

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

WHO can honestly say they can truly and clearly understand the foregoing TRUTH about JESUS?

Hi, thanks for your comments, but I think I am missing the crux of what you are trying to say

 

[KingJ]

Thanks for the effort put into your posts Major.

Mistman, I think you are guilty of skimming through Major's posts .

Major, I am trying to rationalise your post above and having problems.

I hear it said all the time that the heathen are lost because they have not heard of Christ and accepted Him. My friends, they are lost because they are sinners. That is the condition of all humanity. Men are NOT saved by the light they have, THEY ARE JUDGED BY THE LIGHT THEY HAVE.

Since those judged are ALL lost, then PUNISHMENT follows the Judgment based on the light they had in this life. Actually it is really as simple as it sounds and The Bible clearly teaches this.

I agree, but then is God not being unfair on those 'judged by the light they have received' in not giving them the light of Jesus. All are in sin from Adam. The ONLY worthy blood covering for all (except for jews sacrificing animals in OT) is Jesus. God could be accused of making all heathens for eternal suffering in hell with NO chance at salvation.

That does not sound like a fair God, rather a misinterpretation of scripture.

 

[mistmann]

Thanks for the effort put into your posts Major.

Mistman, I think you are guilty of skimming through Major's posts .

Major, I am trying to rationalise your post above and having problems.

I agree, but then is God not being unfair on those 'judged by the light they have received' in not giving them the light of Jesus. All are in sin from Adam. The ONLY worthy blood covering for all (except for jews sacrificing animals in OT) is Jesus. God could be accused of making all heathens for eternal suffering in hell with NO chance at salvation.


That does not sound like a fair God, rather a misinterpretation of scripture.

Hi KingJ,

It is more a matter of me not dwelling on or pursuing that which bears no relevance to the question at hand or is based on an erroneous fundamental foundation. When an argument is based on an erroneous foundation you need only point out the fundamental error on which all the other arguments are based. When a foundational argument crumbles everything built on it crumbles to nothing also.

But I also find that it is a common practice by many to try and divert a discussion away from the topic at hand when the error of their argument becomes too obvious for them to hold on to their position. I do not make a habit of running all over the countryside after those who are trying to escape an argument they find themselves unable to sustain. I prefer that they come back and properly finish the discussion they started.

Regards Misty.

 

[Major]

Hi, thanks for your comments, but I think I am missing the crux of what you are trying to say

Don't feel too bad.........no one else know either!!!!!

 

[Major]

Thanks for the effort put into your posts Major.

Mistman, I think you are guilty of skimming through Major's posts .

Major, I am trying to rationalise your post above and having problems.

I agree, but then is God not being unfair on those 'judged by the light they have received' in not giving them the light of Jesus. All are in sin from Adam. The ONLY worthy blood covering for all (except for jews sacrificing animals in OT) is Jesus. God could be accused of making all heathens for eternal suffering in hell with NO chance at salvation.

Good question my friend. And thanks for the compliment!

Let me see if I can answer your question.
The act of God in "justification" by faith is not an arbitrary decision on His part. He does not disregard His holiness and His justice. Since God saves us by grace, that means that there is not merit in us, and FAIRNESS simply does not come into view at all. God saves us on no other ground than that of us trusting Jesus by faith.

God would be in danger of impugning His own justice if the penality of sin is not paid. He is not going to open the back door to heaven and allow sinners to slip in under the cover of darkness. In Romans, all Paul does is going to do is to state the fact that man is a SINNER. Paul explains in Romans that there is the REVELATION of God but there is also the WRATH of God against the sin of man.

Romans 1:18......
" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness".

The wrath of God is God's feeling, not His punisment of sin. It is His holy anger. Wrath is the antithesis of righteousness and it is used in the above verse as a correlative.

There is an on-going revelation both in the Old Test. and the New which shows God's displeasure with eveil. God does not change. He is merciful not because He is FAIR but because Christ died. The gospel has not changed God's attitude toward sin my friend. The gospel has made it possible to accept the sinner. The sinner must have either the righteousness or the WRATH of God!!!! Both are revealed from heaven and every person can see it manifested all around him.

Aloow me to illustrate. If anyone wants to know how bad sin is, look at the cases of AIDS today. No one gets by with any sin! There is a payday for sin.

Now having said all that, read what comes next ....in......
Romans 1:19
"Because that which may be known of God is MANIFESTED (made known) in them for God has shown it unto them".

There my friend is an original revelation from God. He now follows that with these words...........

Romans 1:20-24....
"For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves".

Creation so clearly reveals God that man is without any excuses which removes the idea of God being FAIR or UN-FAIR. God's creation reveals (1) His eternal power, and (2) the Godhead/divine nature. Creation reveals that God is powerful hence man is obligated to Him and the fact that He is God. ALL men have had the revelation of God therefore ALL men are accountable to God.

Our sin...(rebellion) did not come about through ignorance or UN-FAIRNESS on God's part, BUT THROUGH WILLFULL REBELLION ON OUR PART.

"God gave them up"............This giving is NOT permissive in that God lets man do what he wants to do, but that God withdraws is gracious help thereby becomes JUDICAL. These people were blinded not because God withdrew His light, but because of the judical acts of God whereby He delivered them over to the natural result of their un-belief and rebellion.

I hope this helps to explain, and thanks for asking.

 

[KingJ]

Thanks, it does help.

I have been doing quite a bit of research on this subject and feel like I am getting peace now.

God intearacted with heathens a lot. Rahab and Ruth, who were originally outside of God’s covenant and yet became part of God’s people, likewise the ‘mixed multitude’ that left Egypt with Israel (Exodus 12:38). The people of Nineveh, that repented and will stand up at the judgement of this generation (Mat 12:41). If God intended to torment each of the Ninevites forever in hell why would he want so much for them to repent.

It makes sense that God spare them all from hell as they have, just like Abraham, received righteoussness for their faith and obedience to God.

Also found this interesting link, http://www.net-burst.net/hot/pagans.htm, on God's possible interaction with many cultures who never received the gospel.

In a nutshell my current conclusion on this matter is: God judges all on light received and their obedience / faithulness to that light received. The knowledge of Jesus is the greatest light receivable and makes those who know Him more accountable for their actions. All those faithful to God from the OT, like the people in Nineveh, would accept Jesus if they were given the chance (and God knows this). God no longer reveals Himself to any person as He did prior to Jesus, today if you seek for God you find Jesus. Which is why Jesus can say what is in John 14:6.

Sound correct, Major?

 

[Major]

Thanks, it does help.

I have been doing quite a bit of research on this subject and feel like I am getting peace now.

God intearacted with heathens a lot. Rahab and Ruth, who were originally outside of God’s covenant and yet became part of God’s people, likewise the ‘mixed multitude’ that left Egypt with Israel (Exodus 12:38). The people of Nineveh, that repented and will stand up at the judgement of this generation (Mat 12:41). If God intended to torment each of the Ninevites forever in hell why would he want so much for them to repent.

It makes sense that God spare them all from hell as they have, just like Abraham, received righteoussness for their faith and obedience to God.

Also found this interesting link, http://www.net-burst.net/hot/pagans.htm, on God's possible interaction with many cultures who never received the gospel.

In a nutshell my current conclusion on this matter is: God judges all on light received and their obedience / faithulness to that light received. The knowledge of Jesus is the greatest light receivable and makes those who know Him more accountable for their actions. All those faithful to God from the OT, like the people in Nineveh, would accept Jesus if they were given the chance (and God knows this). God no longer reveals Himself to any person as He did prior to Jesus, today if you seek for God you find Jesus. Which is why Jesus can say what is in John 14:6.

Sound correct, Major?

EXCELLENT my dear friend!!!!

ALL of the OT saints were saved by faith in the coming Messiah. They were in fact saved on Credit with the sacrifices of animals being their down payment (so to speak).

We in the NT are saved LOOKING back on the coming of the Messiah which is still by faith in Christ and based on His blood which paid for the sins of ALL men for all ages.

Very nice to speak with you, Bless you my friend.

 

[Arius]

ALL of the OT saints were saved by faith in the coming Messiah. They were in fact saved on Credit with the sacrifices of animals being their down payment (so to speak).

I agree that all the OT saints were saved by faith in the coming Christ. But, I don't think they were given any credit for animal sacrifices, at least beyond the credit for the faith that lead to obedience. Rather than animal sacrifices being a down payment, they were a shadow of what was to come.

To love God is to accept Christ Jesus. (And, to reject Jesus is to reject God and eternal life.)

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob loved God, therefor they accepted Christ Jesus.

 

[Major]

I agree that all the OT saints were saved by faith in the coming Christ. But, I don't think they were given any credit for animal sacrifices, at least beyond the credit for the faith that lead to obedience. Rather than animal sacrifices being a down payment, they were a shadow of what was to come.

To love God is to accept Christ Jesus. (And, to reject Jesus is to reject God and eternal life.)

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob loved God, therefor they accepted Christ Jesus.

Yes....."down payment" was just a comment which is why I included (so to speak).

God did not change how He saved people in the New Testament. It has always been by faith. In the case of the OT people, they looked ahead in time to the Messiah. We look back to Him and see the cross.

Nice to agree with you.

 

[fil3232003]

Hi, thanks for your comments, but I think I am missing the crux of what you are trying to say

KingJ, I repeat and I hope participants on this worthy FORUM would appreciate the purpose of our Jesus' statement to Thomas who doubted our Lord:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

"him" - refers to Thomas who doubted Jesus Christ.

John 14:5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way?

Therefore, it is expected many many people also doubt WHO Jesus Christ really is. How could Apostles JOHN see JESUS CHRIST in the following?

1 John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

 

[KingJ]

We in the NT are saved LOOKING back on the coming of the Messiah which is still by faith in Christ and based on His blood which paid for the sins of ALL men for all ages.

Very nice to speak with you, Bless you my friend.

Thats a nice way to look at it.

Nice speaking to you too.

 

[KingJ]

I agree that all the OT saints were saved by faith in the coming Christ. But, I don't think they were given any credit for animal sacrifices, at least beyond the credit for the faith that lead to obedience. Rather than animal sacrifices being a down payment, they were a shadow of what was to come.

I agree there. It is amusing how faith with obedience is called 'faith-fullness'.

 

[fil3232003]

Hello all

Ok, so I have been theorising John 14:6 and would really appreciate your input and thoughts.

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"

Facts:
- God is just and no respector of persons.
- Jesus died for all mankind.
- Nobody comes to God the Father except through Jesus.
- The Holy Spirit revealed Jesus's true identity to Peter.

Concluding statements of fact:
- Nobody will reach judgement day without having had an equal and fair opportunity to accept or reject Jesus.
- Just as Peter was revealed the truth by The Holy Spirit, likewise all humans will have this moment in time where there spirit will be ready to see Jesus for who He is and what He stands for and then accept or reject Him (equal conditions for all).
- No matter what you believe (islam, hindu, atheist), your ''equal and fair opportunity'' to accept or reject Jesus is coming. If anything being a faithful God-fearing person will improve your desire to accept Jesus on that day.
- Cannibals that died on remote islands and never heard the gospel will too receive their ''equal and fair opportunity'' oneday to accept or reject Jesus.
- You cannot go to hell unless you have rejected Jesus and you cannot reject Jesus unless you have had an equal and fair opportunity to accept Him.
- The timing of this fair opportunity is irrelevant, it can be on earth, spiritual waiting place or enroute to a waiting place, whats relevant is that God will be blameless on judgement day as you would have been treated eqauly and fairly just as everyone else.
- No human can truly convert somoene, as only The Holy Spirit / or God can sow the seed of Jesus. Christians can only toil the soil.
- Babies / retards will also have their equal and fair opportunity, for all mankind is guilty of sin (Perhaps in the millenium of peace?).

An equal and fair opportunity to accept or reject Jesus entails :

- You are mentally fit to make the decision
- You are spiritually aware of the full impact of your decision
- The Holy Spirit / God sows the seed of Jesus in the moment. (ie, you have a deep spiritual encounter with Jesus, aka God, as Jesus is God in the flesh)

Common explanations are that God's creation testifies of Him and you will be judged on the light you have received. John 14:6 clearly says Jesus and not ''light you have received'' or wind blowing pretty little leaves.

The Holy Spirit would have to testify before God of ALL mankind, that have accepted or rejected Jesus.

If I am to understand, the topic for this THREAD is the following:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Therefore, I would like to take each of the important word that I believe God would reveal His intended message thereof:

1. Jesus as the "way" - He must be showing the "example" for the chosen to follow. Thus,

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Very clear from the foregoing, Jesus must indeed be the "Son of God" as model to the chosen. Thus,

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

2. Jesus is the "truth" -

3. Jesus is the "life" -

4. Jesus is the "mediator between God and men" -

 

[fil3232003]

If I am to understand, the topic for this THREAD is the following:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Therefore, I would like to take each of the important word that I believe God would reveal His intended message thereof:

1. Jesus as the "way" - He must be showing the "example" for the chosen to follow. Thus,

1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

Very clear from the foregoing, Jesus must indeed be the "Son of God" as model to the chosen. Thus,

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

2. Jesus is the "truth" -

3. Jesus is the "life" -

4. Jesus is the "mediator between God and men" -

2. Jesus is the "truth" - I suppose participants on this worthy FORUM all believe Jesus Christ is the TRUTH! What I read as the TRUTH in the Old Testament refers to the FATHER as David wrote in the book of Psalms:

Psalms 31:5 Into thine hand I commit my spirit: thou hast redeemed me, O LORD God of truth.

Hence, could JESUS be the FATHER? Let no participants on this Thread render an opinion or rely to anybody for it is written:

Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm...

My suggestion, let us ALL wait for our Lord as the Disciples waited for Jesus Christ reveal the meaning of "TEMPLE" when He told His listeners:

John 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

Look at the JEWS who did not wait and see the result:

John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

Matthew 27:39 And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads: 40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.

I suppose now we all want to wait for Jesus Christ to reveal why He told Thomas HE is the TRUTH as David in the Old Testament referred to the FATHER.