Things New To Me

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Hey Abdicate (waving). :) (still reading your book - pg 102). I agree that God is all knowing. But I don't think that's a reason to not keep spreading the word and it seems like some use this as a reason to not bother. I want everyone "saved". Impossible, I know and I don't see how it can be done but God keeps telling me I am my brothers (and sisters) keeper. In looking at that Copeland link, I felt sickened and despairing that this could be presented as "gospel" to others. It made me realize I am out of the loop on alot of things that have changed so much in the last 15 years. It's like the faith is taking hits all over the place, within and without.

How do you see it?
 
I agree. Our reason for us remaining here after salvation is to spread the Gospel (Good News) and it is our sole ministry of reconciliation. There are a lot of false preachers out there and I think a LOT of false Christians because of the "1, 2, 3, pray after me" without repentance scheme of the devil. The other spectrum are those that box God into His word alone, that there's no more to God than what is written of a character in a dime-store novel. Any limitation of God is to cheapen Who He is. People don't like what that means, but He says of Himself:

Isaiah 45:5-7 (KJV) I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else, [there is] no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that [there is] none beside me. I [am] the LORD, and [there is] none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these [things].

We cannot understand God and we must use mortal words to describe Him which limits our ability to understand Him. I agree with the Jews and Muslims on this point: How can God have a Son? Yet there He is, the Son of God, Jesus. That thinking is because we cannot fathom Who Jesus is in relation to the Father, and yet "They" are One, it's a contradiction in our vocabulary. The answer is that Jesus is God as much as the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God and yet "They" are all One. Even in Hebrew this is a contradiction: Elohim is the second person masculine plural! It's like saying "hes" the plural of "he". It's a contradiction even when writing about Him. Even when we see that God is so powerful that His Name resided in the temple, we think of a branding instead of the powerfulness of Him in that a Name can reside in a place! Can "Abdicate" or "Silk" abide in a building! God's did! 1 Kings 8:29, 1 Kings 9:3. Now you might be able to get a glimpse into Who Jesus is. God SPOKE and creation occurred. John says the WORD became flesh! That just shows the power of God. That even what is spoke from God is God! This is the amazing thing of the first verse of the Scriptures:

Genesis 1:1 (KJV) "In the beginning..." is this single word in Hebrew (בְּרֵאשִׁ֖ית) which can be broken down like this בְּרֵ אשִׁ֖ית meaning Son I make which we know by Jesus, the Son of God, literally meaning that the Son was NOT created, but made. The difference is that to create something means it's never existed before. Jesus has always existed in eternity. Being made is to be manifested. Jesus, the Word of God, was made flesh! God manifested as flesh! Amazing! The very first two letters of the word of God speaks of the Word of God! AND that He's the second Person of the Tri-part (Trinity). How awesome is that!! But wait there's more! If we move the space over to the next letter making it בְּרֵא שִׁ֖ית we have the meaning Created Lamb!!! It also has the meaning of Create Appoint!! And there's still more! If you add a space before the last letter you get בְּרֵא שִׁ֖י ת Created Gift Cross!! The ת in paleo-Hebrew was a cross meaning covenant! In the plain Hebrew this means A Gift Created!

Things we cannot comprehend because all we have to compare Him to is the finiteness of who we are and the things around us. It's mind boggling! So please do not allow people to put God in a box :D Glory to God!
 
I am fully aware God says this for the benefit of man. I fully believe that when God asked Adam if he ate the fruit of that tree, God knew full well Adam did.

Where is Able? Able's blood was crying out to God from the Ground. God knew.

Not in the Case of Sodom though.

I am trying to get you to see something Major.

God went down to look then he said he would know.

Same with the Tower of Babel. Let US go down and look.

God is showing you how he operates. Study out cry.............. God hears that in heaven.
Psa 145:19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.

God knew the moment Abraham was about to sacrifice Isaac. It was not a foreknowledge, it was a relationship.

God searches hearts that are perfect toward him. He does not keep a list of hearts that he knows will be perfect toward him.

God is not an alien Major. We are made just like Him.

God did not know or plan for King Saul to fail. God is not planing something He has to be sorry He did much later. "It repents me I made Saul King." repent here means long sigh, a sadness.

It was Saul, that changed the plan. It was Eli that changed the plan. It was Adam that changed the plan.
Major, God does not Give a plan then foreknows something different than His own plan. That makes God stupid.

God is not watching the heathen, they are not his. Why he was not watching Sodom or even had a plan for Sodom. He heard the cry come to him. He went to see if that Cry matched what he was hearing.

God is telling us how he responds to man and how he operates here.

1Sa 2:30 Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

God is not saying one thing, while having in his mind something else. He knows what he said, and planed, he does not change that unless we change that.



Glumdum, did you have to post that 4 times so I have to see that picture of that cat? Seriously?

And right here we all see the real problem. YOU ask a question based on a Scripture you quote and when the Biblical, correct answer is given you reject it because IT DOES NOT FIT YOU DENOMIONATIONAL AGENDA.

I usually do not say this to anyone Mike, but you are very, very wrong in your understanding of Scripture, and you prove that every time you post a comment.

It is apparent to me that you need to do a lot of real time study and not off of the inter-net.
 
Like it or not, you have a problem.

Revelation 17:8 (KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God is not surprised or unaware. You've got a serious problem if you do not believe God is all knowing.

Psalms 102:24-27 (KJV) I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years [are] throughout all generations. Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens [are] the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou [art] the same, and thy years shall have no end.

Isaiah 57:15 (KJV) For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name [is] Holy; I dwell in the high and holy [place], with him also [that is] of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

John 3:16 (KJV) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

This word everlasting is αἰώνιος aionios and refers to the eternal future and eternal past.

The same in Hebrew:

Psalms 90:2 (KJV) Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou [art] God.

Here everlasting is עוֹלָם `owlam and means eternity. And it is again repeated here:

Psalms 93:2 (KJV) Thy throne [is] established of old: thou [art] from everlasting.

How about this?Saved since before the world began!

2 Timothy 1:9 (KJV) Who hath saved us, and called [us] with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

Titus 1:2 (KJV) In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

God's plan was for Jesus to die BEFORE THE FOUNDATION of the earth! God knows ALL THINGS.

1 Peter 1:19-21 (KJV) But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you, Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

You might not like it, but here's the word of God.

I not only like it, I LOVE it ans I am well pleased that we are on the same page !!!!!!
 
Abdicate I have been ignoring you in respect to your handicap. I understand things are hard for you and lots of things seem confusing.

Like it or not, you have a problem.

Revelation 17:8 (KJV) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

God is not surprised or unaware. You've got a serious problem if you do not believe God is all knowing.

Because you have a disability of some type which I have seen in lots of threads you missed the fact this says...... "From the foundation of the World"

It does not say a word about God's foreknowledge, it just says if you could understand and I'll help. Those who's names written in the book of life since people have been on the earth. (From the foundation of the World)

There are only 4 places in the Word that say (Before the foundation of the World)

Let me read it for you.

All that have been on the face of the earth who's name have not been added at any time to the book of life, since the world begain and was created.

You see this has nothing to do with God planing or having foreknowledge to murder his son for us. That occurred because of Adams transgression.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Do your best to read it carefully. I will help you.

all those shall worship the best who's name were not found in the lambs book of life who was slain from the foundation of the earth or when the World was created. The book of life had been here since man started to walk here. The Lamb died for the whole world starting from those that first walked in the World and heard the Word of God and responded.

We know this by what Jesus said.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Since mans creation the plan was to give man part of God's ruler ship (Kingdom) Adam threw that away, but Jesus bought it back for us. It was always God's plan that man be with God and fellowship with him from the foundation of the World.

That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
(Luk 11:50)

The start time was when the Prophets of God came and men received or rejected the Word from the foundation of the World.

None of these scriptures indicate God's foreknowledge of having to kill Jesus for us. Adam had the Kingdom (Rulership) because God gave the earth to man and put Adam in charge saying be blessed and multiply. When Adam gave that up to Satan, God made another way.

Aionios is a Greek Adjective that just continues forever unless defined in the article. That is what a Greek adjective is and your definition is off.

You also ignored all the other scriptures I gave and did not compare scriptures with scriptures which just shows your disability and comprehension level.

You have to take all the scriptures and compare. I know that don't make sense to you but I hope one day you will understand that.

I'll save you the trouble of explaining those other scriptures your confused on.

Hang in there, keep reading the Word.
 
I agree Sister.

I don't mind God's ministers living wealthy. I do mind taking money for one thing and not using it for that thing.

People need to know what they are giving to the Lord for. If I am giving money to only Brother Copeland, then I want him to spend that on himself. If I give him Money for feeding the poor then the money better go to that.

Jim Baker lives down the street from me. Has a small studio and serves breakfast to all that come watch the program. He got cancer in Federal prison, and went though a whole lot of pain for disobedience.

Our Church sends out millions, but We have it broken down into what we sow into and given a statement. Our Pastor Keith Moore who studied under brother Hagin takes a salary to keep things on the up and up. He also gives away free all our teaching material which cost well over 100,000 a week and growing. He could be making all that money for himself, but God told him free with postage paid.

Copeland won a land mark case for all Churches when they came in to audit him and all the land and planes. They found nothing wrong anywhere.

The Goverment wanted to make Churches show all the earnings and dictate to churches how to spend any extra money. Copeland fought that in Texas and it cost a lot of money but he won. Not only for himself, but for all churches.

It's easy to see the blessing of God and make Judgements. Kenneth sends millions out all over to support medical supplies and feed people all over the World. That is a lot of money going out.

Kenneth preached at our church and took the offering and divided it among all our staff at Faith life Church. He did not keep it.

I may not agree with everything every minister says, but I certainly am careful about who I speak badly about.

Thank you Silk.

Your blessed.

You have just told us all why your theology is so messed up. ALL of those you have mentioned are MESSED up and one of them even went to jail.

Now our mods are not going to like this but what I am going to post is free for anyone who wants to know so it is not conjecture or opinions. IT has been proven and documented and is on the market for purchase at book stores.

Kenneth Copeland is a 33rd degree Mason.

Kenneth Copeland has stated that Jehovah means Half Male/ Half Female and that God is as much female as he is male. Did you understand the implications of this comment Mike??????
He amplifies this strange teaching by also saying that Adam was originally half male and half female.
This is in the book "The Secret Teachings Of Freemasonry" by Gordon Mohr this is exactly what the Masonic Lodge teaches:- (on pages 107-108)
MichaelH - when it comes time to face your maker - how will you explain your ever so wondrous behavior?

"I have learned not to take your seriously, I see your back to your old devilish tricks of putting down ministers again."

slander and lies, do you always lie so effortlessly?

I point out heretics where I find them. Why do you support them?

And here is the thing.......he is a self proclaimed minister!

Mind boggling isn't it???
 
And right here we all see the real problem. YOU ask a question based on a Scripture you quote and when the Biblical, correct answer is given you reject it because IT DOES NOT FIT YOU DENOMIONATIONAL AGENDA.

I usually do not say this to anyone Mike, but you are very, very wrong in your understanding of Scripture, and you prove that every time you post a comment.

It is apparent to me that you need to do a lot of real time study and not off of the inter-net.

No Major, this is not a denominational issue.

10 years brother i have looked into this. This all came from a book I was reading by Kenneth Copeland. Kenneth said, " God saw Adam would blow it before the foundation of the World and planed a Savior"

My question would be to Brother Copeland is where is your scriptures?

Your issue is that you need to shake some religious teaching off you.

To think God planned one thing yet knew and thought something else makes God out to be stupid.

I know you don't look at it that way, but that is what your saying.

Foreknowledge is a Arminism nonsense. So is election but Election makes more sense.

God makes Saul King, God repents he made Saul king.

God does not make a man King with Foreknowledge it won't work out. God is not a planed failure, God makes the best plans and never has made a bad choice.

It's man Major, it's man that turns from God. Gods plan and foreknowledge for man is to think good of the man not evil.

God did not plan to grieve his heart when He had to drown man. That was not in the foreknowledge or elected plan. I don't think you understand how much that effected your father to have to do that.
There is a rainbow in the throne room today because of that.

God is not some alien, He is love and a loving father. He declares a thing and it stands fast. What man does in that grand plan is up to man. God is not using fortune telling abilities on man and God is not electing man to make it or fail.

He said we choose death or life. Our choice is recoded in heaven and in earth. It's recorded because that is what God uses to when He deals with us. Not some foreknowledge, but what he said he recorded.

Jesus said every idle word man shall speak, they give an account of. Words bring things to pass bad or good and we give account for all the idle heart words that come out our mouth. They are recorded.

It's not me Major, your just having issues with many scriptures.

You can't have free will and have Arminism at the same time. It just don't work that way. Otherwise you have to say God is very limited in his foreknowledge and we know that is not the case.
 
I agree Sister.

I don't mind God's ministers living wealthy. I do mind taking money for one thing and not using it for that thing.

People need to know what they are giving to the Lord for. If I am giving money to only Brother Copeland, then I want him to spend that on himself. If I give him Money for feeding the poor then the money better go to that.

Jim Baker lives down the street from me. Has a small studio and serves breakfast to all that come watch the program. He got cancer in Federal prison, and went though a whole lot of pain for disobedience.

Our Church sends out millions, but We have it broken down into what we sow into and given a statement. Our Pastor Keith Moore who studied under brother Hagin takes a salary to keep things on the up and up. He also gives away free all our teaching material which cost well over 100,000 a week and growing. He could be making all that money for himself, but God told him free with postage paid.

Copeland won a land mark case for all Churches when they came in to audit him and all the land and planes. They found nothing wrong anywhere.

The Goverment wanted to make Churches show all the earnings and dictate to churches how to spend any extra money. Copeland fought that in Texas and it cost a lot of money but he won. Not only for himself, but for all churches.

It's easy to see the blessing of God and make Judgements. Kenneth sends millions out all over to support medical supplies and feed people all over the World. That is a lot of money going out.

Kenneth preached at our church and took the offering and divided it among all our staff at Faith life Church. He did not keep it.

I may not agree with everything every minister says, but I certainly am careful about who I speak badly about.

Thank you Silk.

Your blessed.

And you have just told us why your theology is so messed up. The people you follow are messed up. Just to show YOU how messed up, I will post some material that are readily available to all on the public market so our mods should not have a problem with what is already out there as a fact and not my opinion:

Fact:......
Kenneth Copeland has stated that Jehovah means Half Male/ Half Female and that God is as much female as he is male.
He amplifies this strange teaching by also saying that Adam was originally half male and half female.
This is found in the book "The Secret Teachings Of Freemasonry" by Gordon Mohr :- (on pages 107-108).

Fact:.....
Copeland teaches similar things that the early Mormons leaders who were also Freemasons taught.
While the Mormons teach that God lives on a planet near the star Kolob, Copeland says that his hermaphroditic god also lives on a Mother Planet:-

"Heaven has a north and a south and an east and a west. Consequently, it must be a planet."
Found in "Spirit, Soul and Body I 1985 audiotape #01-0601, side 1".

Fact:.......
Compare what Freemason-Mormon Brigham Young stated "Adam is our father and our God" with Copeland's quote:-
"Adam, in the Garden of Eden, was God manifested in the flesh."
Found in "Following the Faith of Abraham I, side 1 ".

Fact:........
Copeland's following description of his god:-

Copeland describes God as "a being that is very uncanny the way he's very much like you and me. A being that stands somewhere around 6'2", 6'3", that weighs somewhere in the neighborhood of a couple of hundred pounds or a little better, has a span of 9 inches across."
Found in the tape, "Spirit, Soul and Body I audiotape Side 1 1985".

Fact:.........
"Adam was the copy, looked just like [God]. If you stood Adam upside God, they look exactly alike. If you stood Jesus and Adam side by side, they would look and sound exactly alike."
Authority of the Believer IV 1987, audiotape #01-0304, side 1

That my friend is who you are protecting and supporting and believing. Now am I being judgmental? Am I picking on Mr. Copeland. NO!!! I just simply posted his exact words from his own productions.

May the Lord help you my brother!
 
Abdicate I have been ignoring you in respect to your handicap. I understand things are hard for you and lots of things seem confusing.



Because you have a disability of some type which I have seen in lots of threads you missed the fact this says...... "From the foundation of the World"

It does not say a word about God's foreknowledge, it just says if you could understand and I'll help. Those who's names written in the book of life since people have been on the earth. (From the foundation of the World)

There are only 4 places in the Word that say (Before the foundation of the World)

Let me read it for you.

All that have been on the face of the earth who's name have not been added at any time to the book of life, since the world begain and was created.

You see this has nothing to do with God planing or having foreknowledge to murder his son for us. That occurred because of Adams transgression.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Do your best to read it carefully. I will help you.

all those shall worship the best who's name were not found in the lambs book of life who was slain from the foundation of the earth or when the World was created. The book of life had been here since man started to walk here. The Lamb died for the whole world starting from those that first walked in the World and heard the Word of God and responded.

We know this by what Jesus said.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Since mans creation the plan was to give man part of God's ruler ship (Kingdom) Adam threw that away, but Jesus bought it back for us. It was always God's plan that man be with God and fellowship with him from the foundation of the World.

That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
(Luk 11:50)

The start time was when the Prophets of God came and men received or rejected the Word from the foundation of the World.

None of these scriptures indicate God's foreknowledge of having to kill Jesus for us. Adam had the Kingdom (Rulership) because God gave the earth to man and put Adam in charge saying be blessed and multiply. When Adam gave that up to Satan, God made another way.

Aionios is a Greek Adjective that just continues forever unless defined in the article. That is what a Greek adjective is and your definition is off.

You also ignored all the other scriptures I gave and did not compare scriptures with scriptures which just shows your disability and comprehension level.

You have to take all the scriptures and compare. I know that don't make sense to you but I hope one day you will understand that.

I'll save you the trouble of explaining those other scriptures your confused on.

Hang in there, keep reading the Word.

Since you say I'm handicapped, can I claim that on my taxes? Will Obamacare cover it? :p
 
Abdicate I have been ignoring you in respect to your handicap. I understand things are hard for you and lots of things seem confusing.



Because you have a disability of some type which I have seen in lots of threads you missed the fact this says...... "From the foundation of the World"

It does not say a word about God's foreknowledge, it just says if you could understand and I'll help. Those who's names written in the book of life since people have been on the earth. (From the foundation of the World)

There are only 4 places in the Word that say (Before the foundation of the World)

Let me read it for you.

All that have been on the face of the earth who's name have not been added at any time to the book of life, since the world begain and was created.

You see this has nothing to do with God planing or having foreknowledge to murder his son for us. That occurred because of Adams transgression.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Do your best to read it carefully. I will help you.

all those shall worship the best who's name were not found in the lambs book of life who was slain from the foundation of the earth or when the World was created. The book of life had been here since man started to walk here. The Lamb died for the whole world starting from those that first walked in the World and heard the Word of God and responded.

We know this by what Jesus said.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Since mans creation the plan was to give man part of God's ruler ship (Kingdom) Adam threw that away, but Jesus bought it back for us. It was always God's plan that man be with God and fellowship with him from the foundation of the World.

That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
(Luk 11:50)

The start time was when the Prophets of God came and men received or rejected the Word from the foundation of the World.

None of these scriptures indicate God's foreknowledge of having to kill Jesus for us. Adam had the Kingdom (Rulership) because God gave the earth to man and put Adam in charge saying be blessed and multiply. When Adam gave that up to Satan, God made another way.

Aionios is a Greek Adjective that just continues forever unless defined in the article. That is what a Greek adjective is and your definition is off.

You also ignored all the other scriptures I gave and did not compare scriptures with scriptures which just shows your disability and comprehension level.

You have to take all the scriptures and compare. I know that don't make sense to you but I hope one day you will understand that.

I'll save you the trouble of explaining those other scriptures your confused on.

Hang in there, keep reading the Word.

Mike........do you know the meaning of the words "Insults" and "condescending attitude?"

You just did those things to a brother in Christ.

Now, is that what all the ministers do in your denomination?
 
No Major, this is not a denominational issue.

10 years brother i have looked into this. This all came from a book I was reading by Kenneth Copeland. Kenneth said, " God saw Adam would blow it before the foundation of the World and planed a Savior"

My question would be to Brother Copeland is where is your scriptures?

Your issue is that you need to shake some religious teaching off you.

To think God planned one thing yet knew and thought something else makes God out to be stupid.

I know you don't look at it that way, but that is what your saying.

Foreknowledge is a Arminism nonsense. So is election but Election makes more sense.

God makes Saul King, God repents he made Saul king.

God does not make a man King with Foreknowledge it won't work out. God is not a planed failure, God makes the best plans and never has made a bad choice.

It's man Major, it's man that turns from God. Gods plan and foreknowledge for man is to think good of the man not evil.

God did not plan to grieve his heart when He had to drown man. That was not in the foreknowledge or elected plan. I don't think you understand how much that effected your father to have to do that.
There is a rainbow in the throne room today because of that.

God is not some alien, He is love and a loving father. He declares a thing and it stands fast. What man does in that grand plan is up to man. God is not using fortune telling abilities on man and God is not electing man to make it or fail.

He said we choose death or life. Our choice is recoded in heaven and in earth. It's recorded because that is what God uses to when He deals with us. Not some foreknowledge, but what he said he recorded.

Jesus said every idle word man shall speak, they give an account of. Words bring things to pass bad or good and we give account for all the idle heart words that come out our mouth. They are recorded.

It's not me Major, your just having issues with many scriptures.

You can't have free will and have Arminism at the same time. It just don't work that way. Otherwise you have to say God is very limited in his foreknowledge and we know that is not the case.

You said....
"It's not me Major, your just having issues with many scriptures."

Lordy, Lordy, I am .....rotfl!!!
 
Mike........do you know the meaning of the words "Insults" and "condescending attitude?"

You just did those things to a brother in Christ.

Now, is that what all the ministers do in your denomination?

I am for more hard core than the ministers in my denomination. I am here to help or discuss scripture with serious people.

I did not slam him, (Had he not made his Prideful comment) you did not read his post. You have not read some of his post in the past. He does not take all scripture into account and not worth my time. I was kind and broke some things down for him. Had he not go my attention then all good.

He is confused by the terms "From the foundation of the Word" and the term "before the foundation of the world" Scripture uses both of those. Like I said Major, I Normally would ignore him but his prideful comment to me got my attention. He also ignored all the scriptures I have given which tells me he is not very serious about this subject but just wants to rant.

I treat others as they want to be treated Major. I know that by how they respond to me.

Now back to serious discussion.
ADAM:

Major, if God knew before the foundation of the Word that Adam would blow it, then you and Brother Copeland have to accept Calvinism despite all the other scriptures against it.

Either that or you and Copeland must believe God is dumb as rocks.

I know you don't believe that, and I know you believe in free will. How many scriptures we have where God says if you believe, or don't steal? God gives us a choice with consequence of action.

Once You know something but do it anyway then it's not longer just foreknowledge. If God knew Adam would blow it and cause death to reign and harm mankind before the foundation of the World, then it's not foreknowledge but Calvinism.

God put Adam in the Garden.

If God did that knowing ahead of time Adam would fail, then Adam never had a choice.

If you have knowledge that you need gas for your car but don't stop to get gas and run out then it's no longer foreknowledge but you caused yourself to run out of gas.

It's knowledge of things that cause us to respond and cause other things. You put your keys in the ignition because you have foreknowledge that starts the car.

If God has all foreknowledge of mans actions then God does nothing but planed failures.

What God does have is Wisdom. You do this and that will happen. We see that in the Word, not some foreknowledge.
God responds to mans actions and by wisdom has given man the consequences of all actions.

If God had foreknowledge of Saul not obeying him then God does not repent He made Saul King or feel sorrow and sigh (Repent) because he has to remove Saul and judge him. God did repent and feel for Saul. Saul did not obey God.

Smart folk don't make plans knowing they will fail, and God is far smarter than you or I.

Your only other choice is to take up Calvinism. In this case, all God's foreknowledge is not foreknowledge but God knows because God dictates and commands.

We see this in many scriptures because God speaks through prophecy, it happens. However in scripture he gave each man a choice, but spoke the outcome over the whole.

Like Joshua and Calab. God said they would all die according to what they said. (Num 14) Not Joshua or Calab though.
 
Abdicate I have been ignoring you in respect to your handicap. I understand things are hard for you and lots of things seem confusing.



Because you have a disability of some type which I have seen in lots of threads you missed the fact this says...... "From the foundation of the World"

It does not say a word about God's foreknowledge, it just says if you could understand and I'll help. Those who's names written in the book of life since people have been on the earth. (From the foundation of the World)

There are only 4 places in the Word that say (Before the foundation of the World)

Let me read it for you.

All that have been on the face of the earth who's name have not been added at any time to the book of life, since the world begain and was created.

You see this has nothing to do with God planing or having foreknowledge to murder his son for us. That occurred because of Adams transgression.

Revelation 13:8 (KJV) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Do your best to read it carefully. I will help you.

all those shall worship the best who's name were not found in the lambs book of life who was slain from the foundation of the earth or when the World was created. The book of life had been here since man started to walk here. The Lamb died for the whole world starting from those that first walked in the World and heard the Word of God and responded.

We know this by what Jesus said.

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Since mans creation the plan was to give man part of God's ruler ship (Kingdom) Adam threw that away, but Jesus bought it back for us. It was always God's plan that man be with God and fellowship with him from the foundation of the World.

That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;
(Luk 11:50)

The start time was when the Prophets of God came and men received or rejected the Word from the foundation of the World.

None of these scriptures indicate God's foreknowledge of having to kill Jesus for us. Adam had the Kingdom (Rulership) because God gave the earth to man and put Adam in charge saying be blessed and multiply. When Adam gave that up to Satan, God made another way.

Aionios is a Greek Adjective that just continues forever unless defined in the article. That is what a Greek adjective is and your definition is off.

You also ignored all the other scriptures I gave and did not compare scriptures with scriptures which just shows your disability and comprehension level.

You have to take all the scriptures and compare. I know that don't make sense to you but I hope one day you will understand that.

I'll save you the trouble of explaining those other scriptures your confused on.

Hang in there, keep reading the Word.


I posted 10 verses and you expounded on one. I'm sorry you find me handicapped, very Christ like of you.
 
I am for more hard core than the ministers in my denomination. I am here to help or discuss scripture with serious people.

I did not slam him, (Had he not made his Prideful comment) you did not read his post. You have not read some of his post in the past. He does not take all scripture into account and not worth my time. I was kind and broke some things down for him. Had he not go my attention then all good.

He is confused by the terms "From the foundation of the Word" and the term "before the foundation of the world" Scripture uses both of those. Like I said Major, I Normally would ignore him but his prideful comment to me got my attention. He also ignored all the scriptures I have given which tells me he is not very serious about this subject but just wants to rant.

I treat others as they want to be treated Major. I know that by how they respond to me.

Now back to serious discussion.
ADAM:

Major, if God knew before the foundation of the Word that Adam would blow it, then you and Brother Copeland have to accept Calvinism despite all the other scriptures against it.

Either that or you and Copeland must believe God is dumb as rocks.

I know you don't believe that, and I know you believe in free will. How many scriptures we have where God says if you believe, or don't steal? God gives us a choice with consequence of action.

Once You know something but do it anyway then it's not longer just foreknowledge. If God knew Adam would blow it and cause death to reign and harm mankind before the foundation of the World, then it's not foreknowledge but Calvinism.

God put Adam in the Garden.

If God did that knowing ahead of time Adam would fail, then Adam never had a choice.

If you have knowledge that you need gas for your car but don't stop to get gas and run out then it's no longer foreknowledge but you caused yourself to run out of gas.

It's knowledge of things that cause us to respond and cause other things. You put your keys in the ignition because you have foreknowledge that starts the car.

If God has all foreknowledge of mans actions then God does nothing but planed failures.

What God does have is Wisdom. You do this and that will happen. We see that in the Word, not some foreknowledge.
God responds to mans actions and by wisdom has given man the consequences of all actions.

If God had foreknowledge of Saul not obeying him then God does not repent He made Saul King or feel sorrow and sigh (Repent) because he has to remove Saul and judge him. God did repent and feel for Saul. Saul did not obey God.

Smart folk don't make plans knowing they will fail, and God is far smarter than you or I.

Your only other choice is to take up Calvinism. In this case, all God's foreknowledge is not foreknowledge but God knows because God dictates and commands.

We see this in many scriptures because God speaks through prophecy, it happens. However in scripture he gave each man a choice, but spoke the outcome over the whole.

Like Joshua and Calab. God said they would all die according to what they said. (Num 14) Not Joshua or Calab though.

Mike.........it does not make one bit of difference how someone speaks to you my brother. You have claimed to be a minister therefore YOU have to carry that burden. You are by its very nature and instructions from the Scripture to be a humble spirit not a street brawler.

You said........".I treat others as they want to be treated Major"!

What Scripture do you find that in my friend?????

One of the essentials of the ministry Mike is YOUR conduct. Conduct reveals character. What does YOUR conduct say to others????
Words come easy and a Godly walk needs to be seen by all because you are being carefully watched my friend.

YOU have told us that you are a minister. NO one asked you, you volunteered that information as if it was a whipping stick of some kind. The problem I see is that your conduct is not matching your claims and you are not being an effective witness for the sake of the Lord Jesus. That is my opinion, take it or leave it.

Then another essential that must be seen is your conversation . Your conversation comes across as very demanding and mean spirited toward others and not serious as you say. IF you are going to be a minister or a witness for Christ, you must learn that it is Jesus Christ who must be seen and not YOU.

Try taking the attitude down a notch and be friendly and helpful instead of attack !
 
Have you ever examined what Jesus asked God in the Garden Major?

The Word is eternal and never changes.

Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.

Jesus knew and reaffirmed in himself that God could take that cup from him. What did Jesus believe God could do? This is why he said, "All things are possible to thee."

Since the Word will always be true, for that to happen then all the eternal Word that Spoke of Jesus would have to not have occurred and been eternally written.

Jesus was asking the Father to change the course of history and time itself. To take that cup from him, would mean a whole lot of scriptures where no longer true, and that will never happen.

Jesus knew exactly what He was asking the Father and why he added all things are possible for you. It was more than just a matter of him not having to go, it was eternally planned.

Blessings.

This morning I had a thought--- that of course God CAN know what will happen but perhaps by giving is free will he chooses to let it play out without knowing? Lol

Pure speculation of course-- deep thoughts by Allie
 
What some people find hard to swallow is God "allowing" terrible things to happen, ie: the Holocaust, Katrina, whatever horrible series of events you care to name. God will not intervene where a group of humans use free will to reject what is good (or God if you will). You might say Katrina was caused by men? Well there are a lot of scientists say that these terrible weathers are caused by man's misuse of the ground we all walk on. That God reacts when people gather together and pray for Him to help. This does not mean that God didn't know it before hand, it means He honors His word that free will, even tho it be evil's choice, will exist. Free Will does not cross out God's Knowledge of what is to come. I don't use the term "foreknowledge" so as not to confuse it with the doctrine. God is not the cause of the terrible things that happen here on earth, our free will to choose evil is, and the adversary.
 
I posted 10 verses and you expounded on one. I'm sorry you find me handicapped, very Christ like of you.

I only expounded on one because I post many already in this thread. All say different than what you suggest your scriptures say. If you will focus on all scripture then we have something to talk about. No scripture can contradict any other scripture.

There are two conditions. From and Before the foundation of the World.

These events are Before, just 4 mentioned.

Joh 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Joh 17:24
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,


Jesus Given Glory by the Father before the Earth was Made.
Jesus Loved by the Father before the Earth was Made.
We have been chosen to be in him before the Earth was Made.
Jesus was Known before the Earth Was made. (Foreordained means to know before hand)

Heb 1:2
Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;


Everything was made for and through Jesus, whom God had given Glory before the Earth was made. Everything consist through The Son of God.

The whole plan was to put all of creation under Jesus the Son of God. The Worlds were made for Jesus.

Abdicate: There is ZERO scripture that tells us God planned to have to murder his son for mankind. That plan came when the Lord Spoke to Satan, and Adam. God you shall bruise his heel and He shall bruise your head.

The Plan was always to bring fourth the Son for All of God's creation. Everything was Made for Jesus, The father gave Glory to Jesus before the Earth was even created.

All scriptures Pointing to "From the foundation of the World"

Luk 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Is all that has happened here since Adam's Fall. Adam broke mans fellowship with God, and that is when the Word went out to show light from dark. All those that heard the prophets and obeyed God from the Foundation of the World were put in the Lambs book of Life, who was Slain from this World.

The election was the son was always planed to have preeminence. That will never change, and would have happened if Adam blew it or not. God's creation was made For Jesus and through Jesus the Son of God.

Those that believe on the Son of God have eternal life. (Mans choice, not election or foreknowledge)

1) There can be no such thing as Foreknowledge besides what God told us. He knows the heart of man and knows all things, even the number of hair on your head.

2) His foreknowledge is his plan for each man He created to make it and obey him. He does not plan or make things that cause him grief or disobey him. He creates Evil, as he made everything, but anything that became evil was not his fault.

3) Election (Calvinism) would be the only other thing that makes sense unless God had very limited foreknowledge which can't be true. Election can't be true because of the many counter scriptures.

 
This morning I had a thought--- that of course God CAN know what will happen but perhaps by giving is free will he chooses to let it play out without knowing? Lol

Pure speculation of course-- deep thoughts by Allie

10 years ago, I was praying about something and believing for someone to do what they were suppose to do. I believed God would fix them.

Well, Months go by.

I go to God and ask him if that person is going to make it or not. I was getting impatient.

The Lord said, "How would I know? I made you in my image like me. Do you know? Man is on my level, else I have no children or fellowship."

That left a whole bunch of questions and I asked again about that but no answer. What I did not understand is that God could not have told me because I did not have the foundation to understand it. We want to know so many things, but if God just told us we would have to be responsible for it, and would not believe it anyway, without foundation first.

I thought, must have been my head talking but it sure sounded like God to me.

years go by and I ask just for one scripture to prove what "I THOUGHT" I heard. Just then the Holy Spirit gave me a scripture that was in line with what I was praying for someone years ago. Never seen it before this way, but it just opened up.

1Co 7:16
For what knowest thou, O wife, whether thou shalt save thy husband? or how knowest thou, O man, whether thou shalt save thy wife?

The Holy Spirit is saying.............. I don't know if they will be saved, and you won't know either. God tells us things about all kinds of stuff and gives wisdom to every man. If God could tell us the person would accept him, then the Holy Spirit would not have said how will we know if we can save our spouse.

Our prayer can not change someones free will. It can get all the forces of darkness off so they can see the light and make a sound choice though.

Surely God would know, right? Still did not make a whole lot of sense God saying that in scripture.

He spake also this parable; A certain man had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none. Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground? And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung it: And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down.
(Luk 13:6-9)

What Jesus say? Give the tree every chance to bring fourth fruit. If it don't, then cut it down.

Jesus did not say I already know if it will or not. Jesus did not say God already elected it to or not. He is waiting to see himself if the tree brings fourth fruit.

That parable was how God operates. We ought to take heed.
It's how God treated King Saul, How God treated Israel, How God treated Eli, and so on and so on.

it's best to just take God's word at it and stay away from religion.
 
What some people find hard to swallow is God "allowing" terrible things to happen, ie: the Holocaust, Katrina, whatever horrible series of events you care to name. God will not intervene where a group of humans use free will to reject what is good (or God if you will). You might say Katrina was caused by men? Well there are a lot of scientists say that these terrible weathers are caused by man's misuse of the ground we all walk on. That God reacts when people gather together and pray for Him to help. This does not mean that God didn't know it before hand, it means He honors His word that free will, even tho it be evil's choice, will exist. Free Will does not cross out God's Knowledge of what is to come. I don't use the term "foreknowledge" so as not to confuse it with the doctrine. God is not the cause of the terrible things that happen here on earth, our free will to choose evil is, and the adversary.

People can unintentionally pray to God for what is evil. That is why Christ taught us to pray "Thy Will be done" because we don't know all that God knows - the root causes for why the world does what it does. You can't believe in scripture if you ignore all the prophets and Jesus was also a prophet. You are separating plan and foreknowledge, by saying the plan is adaptable to reaction - this still requires foreknowledge.
 
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